The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

[mobius8curve]

Ok first. Before we go any further. Comments like these are childish. They do not support your case, and all they do is make you out to be a proud man who thinks he has been enlightened while everyone else is dumb. So in further responses to me, Cut this out, or I will no longer respond to you.

Second, if you read my post you would have seen 1. I said cloud was not mentioned as for the DEAD being raised. And 2. As part of a ressurection.

You have failed to show otherwise. So again, Back your pride down alittle bit and lets talk like men.

3. This is your opinion. Saying he MOST CERTAINLY IS, is not a FACTUAL STATMENT. It is your OPINION. Discussing the word is discussing opinions. And trying to show people your view or interpretation vs theirs, and seeing if they see the same thing, If you can not come to a point where you agree. You do not attack the other. You try to add more stuff to show your view, and they do the same, to see if you can come, If all else fails. You agree to disagree, and move on. This is a non salvic issue, Scripture says to not dispute over these things and become divided, Satan wants us to be divided. Let not let Satan win ok?

4. As for uttermost part of the earth to uttermost part of the heaven, All this tells me is no matter where a person is on earth (in the deepest cave hiding, or the highest mountain hiding) the angels will find them, and they ALL will be gathered together. (No rapture here. No death, Jesus did not come to save the dead, he came to save the living “And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the[c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.” Matt 24)

Again, Romans 11 calls Israel (Believing or non believing) the elect. Just because you see the word elect does not mean all living or all dead.

Again, Jesus purpose for returning to earth was to SAVE THE LIFE of the LIVING, who would DIE if he did not return. So to say he RAPTURED them just destroyed the purpose for him coming, And leave NO ONE left on earth for him to rule.
So taking this into account, I can not with a sound mine place any form of rapture in these three chapters.

Also. The word GATHER, and RAISED or RAPTURE are not the same terms, they mean different things, You gather together the living so they all come to one place (Most likely Jerusalem) YOU raise the dead, and you CATCH UP (RAPTURE the living.

These are rapture verses, where the dead are RAISED, and the living are RAPTURED, where we will meet in heaven, Has nothign to do with gathering the LIVING on earth when jesus returns to set up his kingdom.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry but the Greek word "eklektos" was used 23 times in the NT. Sixteen times it was translated into the English word "elect" and seven times it was translated into the English word "chosen" such as here:

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's(eklektos) sake, whom he hath chosen(eklegomai), he hath shortened the days.

The "elect" which are the "chosen" from the foundation of the world are ALL going to be raptured/resurrected at the very same time AFTER the tribulation:

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Those "elect" mentioned in earlier in Mathew chapter 24 are the part of the "eklektos" that are still alive on the earth at the end of the tribulation but by no means are they the only "elect" from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Here try studying some Greek on the subject bro:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1588&t=KJV

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1586&t=KJV

 

[tanakh]

What's your insight on 11 Thes 2:1-7? Who is 'he that letteth shall b taken out of the way' specifically 11 Thes 2:6?

I believe him to be the Archangel Michael. He is seen as the Spiritual Guardian of Israel. In Revelation it his he and Angels under him that wage war with the Dragon. Rev 12: 7-12 In Daniel 8 Daniel sees'' someone like''' the Sons of men'' who had been battling with the Prince of Persia. This person tells Daniel that he had left Michael there and calls Michael Daniels Prince. I believe the person who Daniel saw and who gave him the message was Christ. Michael also disputed with the Devil over the body of Moses, Jude verse 9

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

My response was partly to that relation/time-wise comment. Pre-tribbers reinterpret passages like II Thessalonians 2 through the pre-trib lenses they wear.

My question is why do that? The passage is less complicated and fits better with the idea of one pariousia. Where is the actual passage of scripture that shows the rapture occurring before the tribulation? Without that, why interpret passages like this one through the pre-trib theory? What is the justification for interpreting passages that do not actually teach pre-trib to be consistent with pre-trib. Why not stick with a simpler, more feasible interpretation?

I do believe my view [re: 2Th2] IS the simplest and makes the most sense of the entire context (especially chpts 1 and 2 of 2Th, as well as being consistent with that of 1Th [and others]). It does take some time to give explanation, though, especially when folks have a differing idea of what Paul was actually conveying there.

Unfortunately, I'm really pressed for time (and have been for the past day... that's why I've fallen so far behind in this thread...), I will have to come back to this [explanation] when I get a few more free moments. My apologies.


EDIT: I'll start with [again]--the Thessalonians were being swayed to [wrongly] believe that "the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (and this was a REASONABLE [though INCORRECT] thing for them to believe, BECAUSE of the 'tribulations and persecutions' they were presently and ongoingly experiencing... 2Th1:4

 

[mobius8curve]

Again, an arrogant, childish comment, keep this up. And you will go on ignore.

You want to have a conversation, Lets talk scripture. You want to act like a child who thinks he is a know it all.. Then go away

NO pretribber cares if he is alive during the tribulation or not (if they do, they have more issues than eschatology problems)

What we care about is the word of God..

So a brother in Christ would not want to live during the greatest harvest of saints the world has ever seen??? Peter disagrees wholeheartedly with you:

2 Peter 3:11-14 Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy living and godliness, (12) looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (13) But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (14) Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight.

Revelation 21:7-8 He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (8) But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

 

[mobius8curve]

I believe him to be the Archangel Michael. He is seen as the Spiritual Guardian of Israel. In Revelation it his he and Angels under him that wage war with the Dragon. Rev 12: 7'12 In Daniel 8 Daniel sees'' someone like''' the Sons of men'' who had been battling with the Prince of Persia. This person tells Daniel that he had left Michael there and calls Michael Daniels Prince. I believe the person who Daniel saw and who gave him the message was Christ. Michael also disputed with the Devil over the body of Moses, Jude verse 9

Here is an excellent link on 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/01/18/the-mystery-of-lawlessness/

 

[mobius8curve]

What's your insight on 11 Thes 2:1-12?

Shalom

Here is an excellent link on 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/01/18/the-mystery-of-lawlessness/

 

[TabinRivCA]

I believe him to be the Archangel Michael. He is seen as the Spiritual Guardian of Israel. In Revelation it his he and Angels under him that wage war with the Dragon. Rev 12: 7-12 In Daniel 8 Daniel sees'' someone like''' the Sons of men'' who had been battling with the Prince of Persia. This person tells Daniel that he had left Michael there and calls Michael Daniels Prince. I believe the person who Daniel saw and who gave him the message was Christ. Michael also disputed with the Devil over the body of Moses, Jude verse 9

So it follows Michael is the one who will be 'taken out of the way' letting the 'Wicked' b revealed?

 

[presidente]

No, I do not, how would you think this??

I quoted a message a while back which seemed to indicate, if taken literally, that you were saying there was no gathering and no resurrection. That is what you appeared to be saying in that post.

My point was he came back to save their lives, what reason would there be to come back if he was just going to ressurect them anyway, Why not just let mankind kill itself off then start over?

There are a lot of things about which we could ask, "Why didn't God do it this way?" Some kids asks questions like that, asking questions about why Adam sinned or questions about why the Devil is allowed to do certain things. People ask why evil is allowed to exist. 'Why didn't God just do this....' is really evidence for one eschatology over another.

And please again. Stop woth the comments, they are unnesessary and again, just makes you look bad.

I am not sure what you are talking about. I responded about God doing things the way He chooses. That does not make me look bad. It is a good comment in response to your question.

God plan was at the time of the ressurection. All saved people will be ressurected or caught up. Leaving only the undsaved alive on earth. (The churhc is removed) if this happebns at the END of tribulation. There is no one left alive (the lost who have taken the mark of the beast are taken and destroyed.)

Again, I put more weight on didactic passages and interpret apocalyptic passages through them. If Revelation is a bit more allegorical than a strong literalist would like, it still makes more sense to me to rely on the words of Paul and Christ to interpret Revelation. That being said, I would not say the Beast is going to perfectly micromanage the whole planet. Some pockets may escape him. And, again, I wouldn't rule out the idea of God letting someone who had damned himself during the tribulation survive for a thousand years and have children who have a chance. It's not up to me. He might wipe them all out. He is God after all. Either way, the argument is not enough for me to abandon a straightforward interpretation of Paul's writings.

My point was. At the ressurection It does nto say angels were involved in gathering the elect. it says Jesus himself personally ressurects them, then cathes the rest of us up where we will be with him forever.

If no angels are involved, it must be a different event. Which is my point.

If angels' involvement is mentioned in one passage but not another, the fact that angels are not mentioned in one passage does not mean that they are not involved. There are passages where in one gospel, a detail is mentioned, but in another it is not mentioned. The fact that the theives on the cross talking to Jesus are not mentioned in one gospel, but not in another is not evidence that Jesus was crucified twice. Words might be omitted in one version of a message of Jesus in one gospel, but those words relayed in another Gospel. That does not prove that Jesus made the speech twice.

Mat 24 is about christs return to earth, Not ressurecting us to him,

I try to take passages about Christ's return wholistically. If a detail is mentioned in one passage and not another, I do not see that as justification for seeing two separate events. It seems highly counter-intuitive, to say the least, to think that the parousia in II Thessalonians 2:1 and 2:8 occur at different times. One verse speaks of the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him, and another speaks of the man of sin being destroyed at the brightness of His parousia?

Paul uses the same word to refer to the 'parousia' here with no explanation that he is talking about two events. If you just read Paul, there is no reason to think he is referring to two events. None of his epistles indicate that there are two events in the word 'parousia.' In I Thessalonians 4, the raptures occurs at the parousia as well. We are waiting for Jesus to return and be present with us-- waiting for His presence again. To assert that this refers to two events if very wild speculation. If there is no scripture that shows these are two events, it is not reasonable to interpret the Bible that way. Do you see why I consider it unreasonable to postulate that there are separate 'parousia' in Paul's writings? Is there any reason to think Paul thought of it that way?

Your stuck on rapture passages, move away from them, I am talking about return to put an end to the final gentile kingdom issues.

2 different events. Your trying to make them the same, As long as you continue to do this, you will never see what I am saying.

I was raised pre-trib and have heard Bible interpretations through that lens for years. What I am asking for is justification for seeing them as two events. Do you see why I consider this to be unreasonable unless you have some evidence for it?

Dude get off your high horse. Put these words in a mirror and read them to yourself. They could fit you just as well as they can me.. This is a non arguable point, it is just your opinion. And as I said before, I refuse to discuss this with people who can not stick to basic bible and can not stop resorting to strawman arguments which can go either way. (And you were doing so good)

Where is the strawman in my argument? You do see two events, right? If I a misrepresenting you somehow, let me know. I don't see that. I pushed you a bit on your stance here, but I didn't say anything rude in that quote. And I am talking about how to interpret 'basic Bible.' Sometimes our conversation feels a bit to me like that 'Niagra Falls' routine on Abbot and Costello. You should look that up on YouTube to see what I'm talking about.

You forget, there is also mid trib eschatology.

So do you hold to a mid-trib or pre-wrath type viewpoint? If that's the case, the point about seeing two events is still an issue.

What I am not is post trib, or ammil (no trib) theology. To me these are the least supported theories of end time events there are.

They take a very different approach to scripture, and earlies writings on the topic are millineal.




And I explained how you can see.. All you have to do is open up. You may not agree, but why you can not see yet, I do not know what else I can say.

I see your point of view. I just do not agree with it.

No. But they do talk about jesus coming to earth as king, they do speak of him returning to destroy the final beast of Daniel. And revelations shows us, this is exactly what happens. And matt 24 jesus himself references this time

All those things you just mentioned have nothing to do with our conversation. I gave you specific passages of scripture you could look to. All you just did is further show you are not listening to a thing I am saying. Why else would you mention things which have nothign to do with the passage I spoke of?

They have everythign to do with our conversation. And you saying they do not is why you can not see my view.

Because those things occure post trib, it is how the tribulation ends. You claim the rapture happens then, They hep to show that is not the point of Jesus return, the rock who destroys the statue did not return to rapture the elect. He came to spare their lives and put an end to the rule of antichrist.

This is kind of funny. You are quoting yourself and responding to your own words. I accidentally made a mistake with the quote and did not chop off the last bit of the post. It was followed by [/quote] and it was in a different font from my words. But it's funny to see you really letting yourself have it.

As far as the rock destroying the statue, again, if that passage doesn't mention the rapture, it doesn't mention thousand of other things about Christ either. It's not evidence against a rapture occuring at that time, and it is strange to me that you would see it as an argument for such an idea. Where are the horses in that passage?

 

[TabinRivCA]

Here is an excellent link on 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/01/18/the-mystery-of-lawlessness/

I don't see where the 'he who letteth' is discussed. Also, does it make sense that our Heavenly Father, who is perfect, would punish His faithful children along with the wicked ones? I can't fathom this and what would b the purpose?

 

[mobius8curve]

I don't see where the 'he who letteth' is discussed. Also, does it make sense that our Heavenly Father, who is perfect, would punish His faithful children along with the wicked ones? I can't fathom this and what would b the purpose?

I used the ASV for that teaching so its worded a little differently:

ASV ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.

KJV ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

But the meaning is just the same. I suggest starting from the top of that link and following through to the end for it builds truth by precept upon precept:

Isaiah 28:9-10 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. (10) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

 

[preston39]

The hour of trial is not the great tribulation.

f...,
You have no scripture for that conclusion.

 

[TabinRivCA]

Do you know when the 'hour of trial' is?

The hour of trial is not the great tribulation.
πειρασμοῦ
peirasmou And do not lead us into temptation, ( testing, trial etc. ) but deliver us---- versus

θλῖψις
thlipsis Great tribulation matthew 24:21

Do you know when the 'hour of trial' is ?

 

[mobius8curve]

I don't see where the 'he who letteth' is discussed.

Also, does it make sense that our Heavenly Father, who is perfect, would punish His faithful children along with the wicked ones? I can't fathom this and what would be the purpose?

I am sorry as I overlooked your question from your last post!

I think we as Christians today truly do not understand the deep love the original disciples had for the NAME of Jesus Christ:

Acts 5:40-42 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. (41) And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. (42) And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

If it pleased Father to bruise His firstborn Son who did no sis:

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.

How much more does He desire to bring enough suffering upon the rest of His sons who do sin till we overcome:

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ suffered in the flesh, arm ye yourselves also with the same mind; for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Please take a look at these passages as Father is pleased to bring enough suffering to help us put to death our flesh so the life of Jesus might manifest in our mortal flesh in this life:

2 Corinthians 4:7-11 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the exceeding greatness of the power may be of God, and not from ourselves; (8) we are pressed on every side, yet not straitened; perplexed, yet not unto despair; (9) pursued, yet not forsaken; smitten down, yet not destroyed; (10) always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body. (11) For we who live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

Matthew 10:21-22 And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child: and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. (22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Luke 6:22-23 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. (23) Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy: for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for in the same manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Luke 14:27 Whosoever doth not bear his own cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

John 21:18-19 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. (19) Now this he spake, signifying by what manner of death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by that glorying in you, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that would live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

1 Peter 2:19-21 For this is acceptable, if for conscience toward God a man endureth griefs, suffering wrongfully. (20) For what glory is it, if, when ye sin, and are buffeted for it, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye shall take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. (21) For hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that ye should follow his steps:

1 Peter 3:14-18 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; (15) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (16) Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. (17) For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. (18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 4:12-19 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: (13) But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. (14) If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. (15) But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. (16) Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. (17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (18) And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? (19) Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

1 Peter 5:8-10 Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour, (9) whom withstand stedfast in your faith, knowing that the same sufferings are accomplished in your brethren who are in the world. (10) And the God of all grace, who called you unto his eternal glory in Christ, after that ye have suffered a little while, shall himself perfect, establish, strengthen you.

Revelation 6:9-11 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: (10) and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (11) And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.

 

[TabinRivCA]

I am sorry as I overlooked your question from your last post!

I think we as Christians today truly do not understand the deep love the original disciples had for the NAME of Jesus Christ:

Acts 5:40-42 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. (41) And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. (42) And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

If it pleased Father to bruise His firstborn Son who did no sis:

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.

How much more does He desire to bring enough suffering upon the rest of His sons who do sin till we overcome:

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ suffered in the flesh, arm ye yourselves also with the same mind; for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Please take a look at these passages as Father is pleased to bring enough suffering to help us put to death our flesh so the life of Jesus might manifest in our mortal flesh in this life:

2 Corinthians 4:7-11 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the exceeding greatness of the power may be of God, and not from ourselves; (8) we are pressed on every side, yet not straitened; perplexed, yet not unto despair; (9) pursued, yet not forsaken; smitten down, yet not destroyed; (10) always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body. (11) For we who live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

Matthew 10:21-22 And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child: and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. (22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Luke 6:22-23 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. (23) Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy: for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for in the same manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Luke 14:27 Whosoever doth not bear his own cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

John 21:18-19 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. (19) Now this he spake, signifying by what manner of death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by that glorying in you, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that would live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

1 Peter 2:19-21 For this is acceptable, if for conscience toward God a man endureth griefs, suffering wrongfully. (20) For what glory is it, if, when ye sin, and are buffeted for it, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye shall take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. (21) For hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that ye should follow his steps:

1 Peter 3:14-18 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; (15) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (16) Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. (17) For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. (18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 4:12-19 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: (13) But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. (14) If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. (15) But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. (16) Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. (17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (18) And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? (19) Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

1 Peter 5:8-10 Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour, (9) whom withstand stedfast in your faith, knowing that the same sufferings are accomplished in your brethren who are in the world. (10) And the God of all grace, who called you unto his eternal glory in Christ, after that ye have suffered a little while, shall himself perfect, establish, strengthen you.

Revelation 6:9-11 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: (10) and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (11) And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.

I understand persecution from the world, but to be punished along with sinners is another thing and there is no reason for it. So, lets just agree we disagree and b at peace. After all this is not a matter of salvation.....eew at least I hope not! Lets not get into that one, lol.

 

[mobius8curve]

Do you know when the 'hour of trial' is?

Do you know when the 'hour of trial' is ?

Let's break this passage down and see what Jesus is conveying here:

Revelation 3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Matthew 10:17-22 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in their synagogues they will scourge you; (18) yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. (19) But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak. (20) For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you. (21) And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child: and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. (22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Luke 21:34-36 But take heed to yourselves, lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day come on you suddenly as a snare: (35) for so shall it come upon all them that dwell on the face of all the earth. (36) But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I understand persecution from the world, but to be punished along with sinners is another thing and there is no reason for it. So, lets just agree we disagree and be at peace. After all this is not a matter of salvation.....eew at least I hope not! Lets not get into that one, lol.

Brother I am at peace with you whether you believe what I share or not

The whole purpose of all tribulation including the great tribulation is for us to enter into the kingdom of God:

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Father uses the vessels of dishonor to persecute Christians until they learn to obey as Jesus learned so He can author salvation in our hearts:

Hebrews 5:7-9 Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, (8) though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered; (9) and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation;

2 Corinthians 3:2-3 Ye are our epistle, written in our hearts, known and read of all men; (3) being made manifest that ye are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in tables that are hearts of flesh.

After the great tribulation, the Father and His Son will bring their wrath upon the vessels of dishonor:

Revelation 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?

So no you will not be punished with the vessels of dishonor unless you fall away into perdition:

Hebrews 10:38-39 But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him. (39) But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

More on who the "son of perdition" is here:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/01/18/the-mystery-of-lawlessness/

 

[mobius8curve]

Do you know when the 'hour of trial' is?

Do you know when the 'hour of trial' is ?

More truth on the "hour of trial" can be found here:

Luke 21:34-36 But take heed to yourselves, lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day come on you suddenly as a snare: (35) for so shall it come upon all them that dwell on the face of all the earth. (36) But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[TabinRivCA]

More truth on the "hour of trial" can be found here:

Luke 21:34-36 But take heed to yourselves, lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day come on you suddenly as a snare: (35) for so shall it come upon all them that dwell on the face of all the earth. (36) But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I think you inadvertently made reference to the pre-trib w/Lk 21:36, 'escape all these things that shall come to pass' heehee. Good night ya all, I'm watching Hallmark Christmas now w/some hot bamboo tea.

 

[tanakh]

So it follows Michael is the one who will be 'taken out of the way' letting the 'Wicked' b revealed?

Its what I believe. Not everyone would agree with me.

 

[louis]

Some see 'the elect' as the Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah til the end. I'm asking around on the insight of 11 Thes 2:1-8, thx.

My personal opinion is that the elect are the saints; not the general sheep populace.

 

[Adstar]

Please carefully study every passage in this link as a "sum" from "here a little there a little":

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

The bible does not contradict itself so please obey Father's command on how to be weaned off the breast before posting some "opinion" based on a couple of verses:

Isaiah 28:7-13 And even these reel with wine, and stagger with strong drink; the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they stagger with strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. (8) For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. (9) Whom will he teach knowledge? and whom will he make to understand the message? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts? (10) For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little. (11) Nay, but by men of strange lips and with another tongue will he speak to this people; (12) to whom he said, This is the rest, give ye rest to him that is weary; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. (13) Therefore shall the word of Jehovah be unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little; that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

I believe the rapture happens on the day of the second coming of our LORD Jesus Christ and not a day before..