Not By Works

[GodsGrace101]

Well then please excuse me for misunderstanding, my sincere apologies.

God bless!

I don't know ONE Christian who believes that works could save a person.
What I'm saying here is that we must obey God.
Seems like not everyone agrees with me.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Sorry Fran.....your view is not biblical....even if we walk away and or stray he leaves the 99 and comes to find us and FINISH WHAT HE STARTED....He will COMPLETE HIS WORK AND HE ABIDES FAITHFUL to his work and promises....and that is the point you miss, the same point which devalues the gospel you peddle to something akin to cheap trinket jewelry at a flea market.......!

Hey! Trinket jewelry is in style now!

I agree with what you say above.
I do want to say that sometimes when one leaves the faith, they do come back.
Sometimes they don't. As I've said many times,,,Jesus will not force us to come back...He does look for us and will always accept us back --- but we have to want to go back. Look how sweet that little lamb is on His shoulders -- he's not struggling but going quietly and peacefully.
Can you not accept that some people just want OUT? And never come back?
What's 2 Peter 2:19-20 all about? It doesn't matter who it's talking about, teachers,,,fine...it matters that they left the faith.

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[NoNameMcgee]

I don't know ONE Christian who believes that works could save a person.
What I'm saying here is that we must obey God.
Seems like not everyone agrees with me.

hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

what does "to renew them again unto repentance" mean here to you

In your belief system where man plucks themself from Gods hand or He forsakes them after He makes them new, I would think that "if" in verse 6 would mean "when" opposed to "if it were possible"....


When do you believe someone has failed to maintain their own salvation and fallen away?

 

[GodsGrace101]

@NoNameMcgee

You could disagree and not post all you want to my dear old friend.
The fact is that I'M not the one making the statements.

You'll have to take it up with the very first Christian theologians and the N.T. writers.

Have you ever read the early theologians?
It would blow your mind how super intelligent they were and how well they understood the Apostles; some of whom knew them, travelled with them, and studied with them.

Check it out.

 

[GodsGrace101]

hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

what does "to renew them again unto repentance" mean here to you

In your belief system where man plucks themself from Gods hand or He forsakes them after He makes them new, I would think that "if" in verse 6 would mean "when" opposed to "if it were possible"....


When do you believe someone has failed to maintain their own salvation and fallen away?

Oh please. If you need ME to explain the above to you...
then you better just start all over again.

Do YOU think that God would not want you back?
What do YOU think the above means?

And, BTW, I don't have my very own belief system.
It seems to be what the bible teaches and is taught in mainline churches that like to hold on to the truth.

And what is the truth?
????

Nice to speak to you NoName.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

@NoNameMcgee

You could disagree and not post all you want to my dear old friend.
The fact is that I'M not the one making the statements.

You'll have to take it up with the very first Christian theologians and the N.T. writers.

Have you ever read the early theologians?
It would blow your mind how super intelligent they were and how well they understood the Apostles; some of whom knew them, travelled with them, and studied with them.

Check it out.

What?

You are the one making the statements I disagree with.... and I have posted many times... trying to help you on another account as well...

 

[GodsGrace101]

hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

what does "to renew them again unto repentance" mean here to you

In your belief system where man plucks themself from Gods hand or He forsakes them after He makes them new, I would think that "if" in verse 6 would mean "when" opposed to "if it were possible"....


When do you believe someone has failed to maintain their own salvation and fallen away?

Forgot your last sentence...
When they tell you they no longer believe.

 

[GodsGrace101]

What?

You are the one making the statements I disagree with.... and I have posted many times... trying to help you on another account as well...

What other account?
This is my very favorite thread on this site.

I'll explain Hebrews if you really want me to.
I just have a feeling you already know...

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Oh please. If you need ME to explain the above to you...
then you better just start all over again.

Do YOU think that God would not want you back?
What do YOU think the above means?

And, BTW, I don't have my very own belief system.
It seems to be what the bible teaches and is taught in mainline churches that like to hold on to the truth.

And what is the truth?
????

Nice to speak to you NoName.

lol Don't be like mr. there is no saved believers and make me ask the "right" questions after I prove myself, please.

I wanted to know your answers to the questions...

 

[NoNameMcgee]

What other account?
This is my very favorite thread on this site.

I'll explain Hebrews if you really want me to.
I just have a feeling you already know...

You said old friend but I do not know you from the account you are on, I must have mistaken you for someone else if it is not obvious to you who I mean.


(and of course I know what it means... praise God... I don't know what you believe it to mean...and seeing as how we keep disagreeing it is safe to assume we may believe it means different things)

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Forgot your last sentence...
When they tell you they no longer believe.

It is spoken word which can keep you from maintaining your own salvation?....

 

[GodsGrace101]

lol Don't be like mr. there is no saved believers and make me ask the "right" questions after I prove myself, please.

I wanted to know your answers to the questions...

OK. Here we go.

Hebrews 6:4-6

This is being written to a Jewish audience that had been taught all their life that they had to work to please God and to be what we today call Saved.

Those Pharisees treated them like slaves and underlings and were the blind leading the blind...as Jesus said.

Paul was trying to explain to them that they were saved by faith in God, just like in the O.T. FAith saves, not works of the law. So some of the Jews accepted this. But after a while they began to have doubts because they had been so deeply indoctrinated from birth.

So Paul was telling them that, after tasting the love of God, they RETURNED TO THE LAW, there could be no further salvation for them.

This is what it means. It has nothing to do with persons that decide they no longer want to be Christian....totally different situation.

Do you agree?

God always wants us back.
The Prodigal Son

 

[GodsGrace101]

You said old friend but I do not know you from the account you are on, I must have mistaken you for someone else if it is not obvious to you who I mean.


(and of course I know what it means... praise God... I don't know what you believe it to mean...and seeing as how we keep disagreeing it is safe to assume we may believe it means different things)

How could it mean something different?
The verses are the same for both of us.
It's just how they're interpreted by some.
Some churches have been teaching doctrine that was not in original Christianity.

Do you remember CFnet?
You were a young Christian and I'm happy to see you're still with us.

 

[GodsGrace101]

It is spoken word which can keep you from maintaining your own salvation?....

Hmmm. I don't understand what you mean.

If someone tells me they love Jesus and are saved....I believe them.
If someone tells me they've lost their faith...I believe them.

What else do we have to go on?

 

[dcontroversal]

What is cheap, my dear Dcon, is what YOU peddle.

How do you suppose those that knew the Apostles thought about being saved?
Do you think they walked down an isle to "accept" Jesus?
You sound very studied...have you not studied those that knew the Apostles?

Notice that even Clement of Rome has a comment, and MANY more!


The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. . . . He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works. Barnabas (c. 70-130), 1.148, 149.

We are justified by our works and not our words. Clement of Rome (c. 96), 1.13.

. . . that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that you are indeed the members of His Son. . . . Faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. . . . The tree is made manifest by its fruit. So those who profess themselves to be Christians will be recognized by their conduct. . . . It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not be one. Ignatius (c. 105), 1.51-55.

Therefore, brethren, by doing the will of the Father, and keeping the flesh holy, and observing the commandments of the Lord, we will obtain eternal life. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.519.

Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as for those who do not keep His commandments, there is no life in them. Hermas (c. 150), 2.25.

We . . . hasten to confess our faith, persuaded and convinced as we are that those who have proved to God by their works that they followed Him, and loved to abide with Him where there is no sin to cause disturbance, can obtain these things. . . . Each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. Justin Martyr (c. 160), 1.165, 166.

We will give account to God not only of deeds (as slaves), but even of words and thoughts (as being those who have truly received the power of liberty). For under liberty, a man is more severely tested as to whether he will reverence, fear, and love the Lord. . . . God desires obedience, which renders [His worshippers] secure—rather than sacrifices and burnt-offerings, which avail men nothing toward righteousness. Irenaeus (c. 180), 1.482.

When we hear, "Your faith has saved you," we do not understand Him to say absolutely that those who have believed in any way whatsoever will be saved. For works must also follow. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195), 2.505.

source: What the Early Christians Believed About Salvation - chasingalion.com

It would be great if everyone reading along really read the above and understood that this is what the very first Christians believed. The gospel and the Word of God has changed and is no longer recognizable in our modern society.

Maybe some just find the above to difficult to accept...
But God is the same always and does not change and neither does what He expects of us.

I mean,,,it would behoove everyone here to listen to Barnabas and not Dcon, who is doing his best, but is deceived.

I do not care what Clement said.....Paul trumps Clement and he said under inspiration....Therefore we CONCLUDE A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS/WORKS of the law.....the problem is simple....YOU conflate Romans and James and in so doing miss the proverbial mark.......tragically!

 

[dcontroversal]

Well, ditto to that!
I also like you but not what you "peddle". I understand this modern salvation mode...
You know very well that I don't believe works save anyone...
BUT, after salvation they are necessary to MAINTAIN it. I know this sounds terrible, but I'm not the one teaching it.

The N.T. teaches this, and also the very first Christians understood this.
Colossians 3:23
1 Timothy 5:8
John 5:17

..............

Sorry....the N.T. does not teach it......but what it does teach is a rewards system BASED upon works or a lack thereof AFTER one has been biblically BORN AGAIN FROM ABOVE BY THE IRREVOCABLE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE....

What does IRREVOCABLE MEAN FRAN?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

OK. Here we go.

Hebrews 6:4-6

This is being written to a Jewish audience that had been taught all their life that they had to work to please God and to be what we today call Saved.

Those Pharisees treated them like slaves and underlings and were the blind leading the blind...as Jesus said.

Paul was trying to explain to them that they were saved by faith in God, just like in the O.T. FAith saves, not works of the law. So some of the Jews accepted this. But after a while they began to have doubts because they had been so deeply indoctrinated from birth.

So Paul was telling them that, after tasting the love of God, they RETURNED TO THE LAW, there could be no further salvation for them.

This is what it means. It has nothing to do with persons that decide they no longer want to be Christian....totally different situation.

Do you agree?

God always wants us back.
The Prodigal Son

I do not agree. I also do not agree that "The prodigal son" is a story of a saved believer losing salvation and then regaining salvation.


If it is impossible to renew him to repentance......how did God take him "back"


what does that say about your words that there could be no more "further" salvation

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Hmmm. I don't understand what you mean.

If someone tells me they love Jesus and are saved....I believe them.
If someone tells me they've lost their faith...I believe them.

What else do we have to go on?

Does God go by what man sees and believes or the heart?


Did peter "fall away" when he denied Jesus?....

 

[GodsGrace101]

I do not care what Clement said.....Paul trumps Clement and he said under inspiration....Therefore we CONCLUDE A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS/WORKS of the law.....the problem is simple....YOU conflate Romans and James and in so doing miss the proverbial mark.......tragically!

No D,
I don't conflate Romans and James as many do.
The N.T. is perfectly reconciled for me. Paul taught what James taught what Jesus taught.
I see no difference.

Please note what you posted above:

WE CONCLUDE THAT MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS.


Right!

When did I EVER say this was not true?

We are justified by FAITH. I'm sure you've studied justification.

But then comes sanctification. That is an on-going process that lasts all our life.

If we abandon God...HOW will we continue to be sanctified?

2 Thessalonians 2:13
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

We are saved through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. If we no longer have faith, HOW would the Holy Spirit continue to sanctify us??


2 Timothy 2:21
21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

This is what sancification is: Being set aside, made holy (same as sanctify) for God's good works.
How does a person who no longer wishes to serve the Lord stay sanctified?

 

[GodsGrace101]

I do not care what Clement said.....Paul trumps Clement and he said under inspiration....Therefore we CONCLUDE A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS/WORKS of the law.....the problem is simple....YOU conflate Romans and James and in so doing miss the proverbial mark.......tragically!

I knew you'd say that.
How does Paul trump Clement?
Clement KNEW Paul and studied under him.

It was considered that Clement should be included in the N.T. and also some others.
Don't you know this???