Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
What do you perceive as the false gospel @ReturnToGod is preaching?
Maybe YOU have the false gospel??
I'm just not sure what you believe but the above poster has said everything correctly so far.
Maybe YOU have the false gospel??
I'm just not sure what you believe but the above poster has said everything correctly so far.
The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.
These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)
...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13
...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2
How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?
We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.
Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?
..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10-14, 24
...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6-7
...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1-19
Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.
The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.
Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?
So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?
These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)
...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13
...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2
How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?
We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.
Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?
..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10-14, 24
...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6-7
...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1-19
Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.
The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.
Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?
So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?
No we do not save our se
God promised the Israelites that they would enter the Promised Land. Yet those to whom He made the promise did not. God specifically affirms that He did not fulfill that promise in scripture because they lacked the faith to obey, Now you might say but this is the new covenant. But we are reminded three times in the NT not to follow the example of the Israelites with a very clear warning not to fall short of the promises of God. We receive God by a true and living faith that seeks to follow (be led) by the Holy Spirit. These are the true sons of God as Romans 8:14 indicates. It has NOTHING to do with saving ourselves. NOTHING. It does have to do with a true and living faith.
God promised the Israelites that they would enter the Promised Land. Yet those to whom He made the promise did not. God specifically affirms that He did not fulfill that promise in scripture because they lacked the faith to obey, Now you might say but this is the new covenant. But we are reminded three times in the NT not to follow the example of the Israelites with a very clear warning not to fall short of the promises of God. We receive God by a true and living faith that seeks to follow (be led) by the Holy Spirit. These are the true sons of God as Romans 8:14 indicates. It has NOTHING to do with saving ourselves. NOTHING. It does have to do with a true and living faith.
-
1
- Show all
N
No.😏
I have been shown the truth...
praise God
He set me free from the bondage which man made religions would place us under
and I already believe you push the same false belief system rtg peddles
I don't believe you are being dishonest in regards to your beliefs, I just know that it is error to believe once God makes us new, saves us... freely by Grace through faith
we are saved indeed
there are those we are not of who fall away....
there are those who surely are not of us or else they would have continued with us....
but God will not lose one of His children
it is only man who can be decieved by a profession of faith followed by works
not God
He doesnt make mistakes
no one He saves from a just punishment ends up in Hell
or else they were never "saved"
scripture is clear
I am not confused nor decieved nor ashamed of the truth
I have been shown the truth...
praise God
He set me free from the bondage which man made religions would place us under
and I already believe you push the same false belief system rtg peddles
I don't believe you are being dishonest in regards to your beliefs, I just know that it is error to believe once God makes us new, saves us... freely by Grace through faith
we are saved indeed
there are those we are not of who fall away....
there are those who surely are not of us or else they would have continued with us....
but God will not lose one of His children
it is only man who can be decieved by a profession of faith followed by works
not God
He doesnt make mistakes
no one He saves from a just punishment ends up in Hell
or else they were never "saved"
scripture is clear
I am not confused nor decieved nor ashamed of the truth
I assure you that the people blowing themselves up and killing others believe their own version of the truth. They TRULY believe; it is just they are wrong.......It is incumbent on each of us to examine what ALL of scripture says and not trust in other men. I remind you the early church fathers did not believe what you claim (read A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers under Salvation), nor did those in the first 1600 years of the church age. If you can earnestly say that you are truly considering all scripture there is little else we can say except make sure you are considering all scripture. in Him
-
2
-
1
-
1
- Show all
...and, “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” they stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for. 1 Peter 2:8
... HE WILL PUNISH THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOD AND DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS. THEY WILL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you. With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith.2 Thessalonians 1:8-11g
Who are those who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel of our LORD Jesus?
...We know that WE HAVE COME TO KNOW HIM IF WE OBEY HIS COMMANDS. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. 1 John 2:3-4
...They claim to know God, but BY THEIR ACTIONS THEY DENY HIM. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and unfit for doing anything good. Titus 1:16
...They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4
...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrathcomes on those who are disobedient.7 Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians5:6
... HE WILL PUNISH THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOD AND DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS. THEY WILL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you. With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith.2 Thessalonians 1:8-11g
Who are those who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel of our LORD Jesus?
...We know that WE HAVE COME TO KNOW HIM IF WE OBEY HIS COMMANDS. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. 1 John 2:3-4
...They claim to know God, but BY THEIR ACTIONS THEY DENY HIM. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and unfit for doing anything good. Titus 1:16
...They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:4
...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrathcomes on those who are disobedient.7 Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians5:6
In your reply you're referring to 1 John 2:19.
I hope you know that John was very concerned with gnosticism invading the church.
When John said that some left because they were "not of us", he meant that they were gnostics and so they could not get along with true Christians.
Please study this. Gnosticism seems to be making a comeback.
We have a free will and we could leave God at any time that we so choose.
As to works....they are not necessary if we are not saved. Of course.
If we ARE saved, they become necessary because the same John said that faith without works is dead.
I hope you know that John was very concerned with gnosticism invading the church.
When John said that some left because they were "not of us", he meant that they were gnostics and so they could not get along with true Christians.
Please study this. Gnosticism seems to be making a comeback.
We have a free will and we could leave God at any time that we so choose.
As to works....they are not necessary if we are not saved. Of course.
If we ARE saved, they become necessary because the same John said that faith without works is dead.
You statement here is clear, just as the others you have made and I have posted. This is easy to understand if a person has been convinced that God created a "bunch of laws" that are against us, and Jesus has to come and "free" you from them.
But the scriptures do not support this belief. It is man's "tradition" to reject God and His Word. From Eve and Cain to the Jews who were trying to "Bewitch the Galatians" by furthering their version the obsolete Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for justification of sins. A Priesthood that the Law and Prophets foretold would be replaced "After those days". Had the Mainstream Preachers of His time respected His Word as righteousness, "EVERY Word" as Jesus instructed, they wouldn't have mixed it with their own logic and religious traditions and would have been like Zechariahs who did strive to "live by Every Word" of God and as a result, Jesus manifest Himself to him, as promised in John 14.
God Laws are His Righteousness. His law contains Mercy, Judgment, and Faith. Jesus is the walking, Talking "Law of God", as it is written. He put God's Laws into action by walking in them perfectly. The preaching that Jesus was a self righteous man who put on an outward Façade of righteousness by walking in "a bunch of laws" just so He could ride roughshod, or claim to be more Holy than the mainstream preachers of His time is foolishness and I am amazed that you would imply such a thing. But if you read your posts, that is exactly what you are preaching. Now I know you got this teaching from somewhere, certainly not the Christ. It is my hope that you might consider all the Warnings of the Christ regarding religious man, and stick to the only true righteousness there is. The Word of God.
Man can not guide his own footsteps into eternity. There is a righteous Path Post. Jesus walked this Path as did Zechariahs, Abraham, Anna, Simeon, Paul, Peter, Stephen, the list goes on and on. But Jesus said there was also another Path, that Many, who call Him Lord, Lord, are on. He said this path leads to destruction, but I don't think those on it believe this truth.
Psalms 119:
1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
169 TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.
170 Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.
171 My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.
172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.
174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.
175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.
176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.
But if you have already been convinced that you are already immortal, and that God's instruction is against you. Keeping you Blind, and burdened and in a yoke of slavery, then of course you would teach that God's "Bunch of laws, and the heathen's "bunch of laws" are no different. This is the point I hope to make.
But the scriptures do not support this belief. It is man's "tradition" to reject God and His Word. From Eve and Cain to the Jews who were trying to "Bewitch the Galatians" by furthering their version the obsolete Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for justification of sins. A Priesthood that the Law and Prophets foretold would be replaced "After those days". Had the Mainstream Preachers of His time respected His Word as righteousness, "EVERY Word" as Jesus instructed, they wouldn't have mixed it with their own logic and religious traditions and would have been like Zechariahs who did strive to "live by Every Word" of God and as a result, Jesus manifest Himself to him, as promised in John 14.
God Laws are His Righteousness. His law contains Mercy, Judgment, and Faith. Jesus is the walking, Talking "Law of God", as it is written. He put God's Laws into action by walking in them perfectly. The preaching that Jesus was a self righteous man who put on an outward Façade of righteousness by walking in "a bunch of laws" just so He could ride roughshod, or claim to be more Holy than the mainstream preachers of His time is foolishness and I am amazed that you would imply such a thing. But if you read your posts, that is exactly what you are preaching. Now I know you got this teaching from somewhere, certainly not the Christ. It is my hope that you might consider all the Warnings of the Christ regarding religious man, and stick to the only true righteousness there is. The Word of God.
Man can not guide his own footsteps into eternity. There is a righteous Path Post. Jesus walked this Path as did Zechariahs, Abraham, Anna, Simeon, Paul, Peter, Stephen, the list goes on and on. But Jesus said there was also another Path, that Many, who call Him Lord, Lord, are on. He said this path leads to destruction, but I don't think those on it believe this truth.
Psalms 119:
1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
169 TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.
170 Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.
171 My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.
172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.
174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.
175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.
176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.
But if you have already been convinced that you are already immortal, and that God's instruction is against you. Keeping you Blind, and burdened and in a yoke of slavery, then of course you would teach that God's "Bunch of laws, and the heathen's "bunch of laws" are no different. This is the point I hope to make.
I've been saying the above forever.
But, hey, why listen to someone that SPOKE to and LEARNED from John the Apostle?
Like Ignatius of Antioch for example...
I've been told they were not inspired.
I guess the reformers were all inspired!
I guess it's better to believe some guy on YouTube from today than someone that learned from the Apostles.... how sad.
But, hey, why listen to someone that SPOKE to and LEARNED from John the Apostle?
Like Ignatius of Antioch for example...
I've been told they were not inspired.
I guess the reformers were all inspired!
I guess it's better to believe some guy on YouTube from today than someone that learned from the Apostles.... how sad.
I would remind us also of David of whom God said was a "man after my own heart", Consider how many times David, in Psalms used the pronoun "I" to state his faithfulness before God. It is not that David was without sin. He did wrong like all of us, but David was committed to doing right and was faithful to confess and repent of His sins when he transgressed against the Lord.....
I cannot see their heart, only what they claim. But the fact that based on the doctrine advanced by many that people could think this is a grave warning sign.
I cannot see their heart, only what they claim. But the fact that based on the doctrine advanced by many that people could think this is a grave warning sign.
-
1
- Show all
That is the whole point isn't it. "Strive to Enter" as Jesus said.
2 Tim. 2:
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
Good point and welcome to this Bible discussion forum
2 Tim. 2:
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
Good point and welcome to this Bible discussion forum
I am truly new friend. I did not say you said that. I simply made a statement because there is a false dichotomy in the church that if you are called to live faithfully it is a works based salvation. The Bible makes the point over and over that faith is accompanied by works except in the most extreme of cases.....
-
1
-
1
- Show all