The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

[mobius8curve]

Yes indeed and ALL ripped out of context, for there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture!

Matt 24v29-31 states: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

And many other verses!

Amen Bro! Pretribbers have to play word games to prove a pretrib rapture! Anyone who studies the prophets as one can clearly see the tribulation is for the saints and the wrath is a full year that "immediately" follows the tribulation just as it was in the days of Noah that I clearly proved here:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

 

[louis]

I also am a post trib believer, however, the sequencing of events is a little different that the main consensus.
If we look at the passage in Matthew 24:29, we see the stars falling from heaven immediately after the tribulation.
So what are the stars that fall from heaven?
In Daniel 8:10, we see the little horn (aka the Antichrist) casting some of the heavens stars (The Lords angels who provide mankind with truth) to the ground and stamping on them.
In Revelation 12:4, we have another description, where the dragon's tail casts one third of heavens stars to the earth.
After casting the stars (truth) to the ground, the little horn then brings about prosperity, which in Revelation 13 as 42 months in which the whole world will be in love with the beast and Antichrist' system.
In short, first comes the tribulation, then comes the beasts 42 months, then comes the wrath of God on the beast and its worshipers.
Additional confirmation is provided in Revelation 8 & 9, where the environmental issues in Revelation 8 precede the key to the bottomless pit from which the beast will rise from the sea.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Revleation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

 

[foolishone]

Amen Bro! Pretribbers have to play word games to prove a pretrib rapture! Anyone who studies the prophets as one can clearly see the tribulation is for the saints and the wrath is a full year that "immediately" follows the tribulation just as it was in the days of Noah that I clearly proved here:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

I think that is the problem; they can't get their heads around the fact that the Trib. is not the same as the wrath of God which starts at the 7th seal with the 1st of 7 trumpets.

 

[Absolutely]

Continued



The same could be said about you. DO you have any actual information which may change my mind, or are you just going to sit there and belittle me, and prove nothing but you have no desire to discuss at all.


I have dealt with it, Your the one not dealing with it, You have two events happening at exactly the same time, and refuse to acknowledge the things which would prebvent these things from being able to happen at the same time.

Now if you disagree with me, thats one thing, but to say I am not dealing with it. Well you just let your prie show again. And are not sticking to the issue. Is it because you can’t?


You seem to be stuck on one passage, which I have already showed a much different view and why.

Pre tribbers like to take the whole councel of God and not make a doctrin out of one passage.

Matt 24 is Jesus returning to save the life of the living elect who would have been killed if he did not return. And has notihng to do with any rapture. It has to do with the living, not the dead.

2 thess. Already been answered


So its ok for you to attack and do this. But not for others to return the favor? Sorry I do not play that game, What comes around goes around. As I said, Your the only person I ever met who never saw one verse which possibly supports one view. There is only one reason in my mind why that is.

Parousia I am assuming means presence.

I told you once I told you over and over. There IS NO PRESENCE in the RAPTURE. God meets us in the couds. NOT HERE ON EARTH. If post trib were true, God would meet us ON EARTH not in the clouds.

Either way, If I am here during the tribulation or not does not bother me, I will be prepaired either way. Because satan can not hurt me, he can just take my life..but he can;t have my soul. So pre tribbers do not think like your strawman says.. True believers do not worry about those types of things..

If I am here during tribulation I will be trying to bring people to christ. Nothing will change, But I see to much evidence which refutes a post trib or post mill interpretations. So I must follow Gods word.



Once again, Matt 24 is jesus coming to save the living, not rapture the dead. Your adding to the word. 2 thess is not the same time as matt 24. One is christ ressurecting the dead. The other is God comming to put an end to tribulation before all life ceases to exust because we killed each other off. And to set up his kingdom
if you want to make them the same, you have to answer the question we have asked. Youhave failed to adequately do this task.

"I told you once I told you over and over. There IS NO PRESENCE in the RAPTURE. God meets us in the couds. NOT HERE ON EARTH. If post trib were true, God would meet us ON EARTH not in the clouds"

Yes,a postrib rapture removes any purpose for a rapture

 

[foolishone]

Amen Bro! Pretribbers have to play word games to prove a pretrib rapture! Anyone who studies the prophets as one can clearly see the tribulation is for the saints and the wrath is a full year that "immediately" follows the tribulation just as it was in the days of Noah that I clearly proved here:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

I think that is the problem; they can't get their heads around the fact that the Trib. is not the same as the wrath of God which starts at the 7th seal with the 1st of 7 trumpets.

Over the course of years starting as a pre tribber, it seemed to me as I learned more ( without man's input ) that the pre tribber takes parts of scripture from old and new Testaments and rearrange it to make their point. While Jesus put it straight forward and it lines up with Revelations 7 seals. Revelations was of course Jesus giving John even more detail of the Tribulation, the taking away and the Wrath of God and His Kingdom coming and the final battle and judgement and eternity. In a nut shell.

 

[Absolutely]

I think that is the problem; they can't get their heads around the fact that the Trib. is not the same as the wrath of God which starts at the 7th seal with the 1st of 7 trumpets.

Not an issue. You have probably never looked at the pretrib model.
According to the bible the ac kills everyone refusing the mark.
That is during the trib.
Also take a look at "...and they overcame by the blood...."
Keep reading
It says they overcame THROUGH DEATH.
They died.
According to the bible THE AC OVERCOMES THEM.
They in turn,overcome by dying.
The trib/wrath deal is emphasised by some,but is mostly moot

 

[Absolutely]

Over the course of years starting as a pre tribber, it seemed to me as I learned more ( without man's input ) that the pre tribber takes parts of scripture from old and new Testaments and rearrange it to make their point. While Jesus put it straight forward and it lines up with Revelations 7 seals. Revelations was of course Jesus giving John even more detail of the Tribulation, the taking away and the Wrath of God and His Kingdom coming and the final battle and judgement and eternity. In a nut shell.

How ironic you center on tribulation causing you to loose sight of the heart of heaven.
The bride of Christ.
It is appalling ,that no red flags hit you.
Pretrib doctrine is Jesus /bride centered.
Your problem is your starting place.
Think about it....you have Jesus as a indirect player.

 

[foolishone]

How ironic you center on tribulation causing you to loose sight of the heart of heaven.
The bride of Christ.
It is appalling ,that no red flags hit you.
Pretrib doctrine is Jesus /bride centered.
Your problem is your starting place.
Think about it....you have Jesus as a indirect player.

Not at all. Don't know where you get that from. The bride of Christ does meet him in the air. After the trib before the wrath of God.

 

[foolishone]

Not an issue. You have probably never looked at the pretrib model.
According to the bible the ac kills everyone refusing the mark.
That is during the trib.
Also take a look at "...and they overcame by the blood...."
Keep reading
It says they overcame THROUGH DEATH.
They died.
According to the bible THE AC OVERCOMES THEM.
They in turn,overcome by dying.
The trib/wrath deal is emphasised by some,but is mostly moot

I was a pre trib now I'm not. Like I said before we can argue this till the bulls come home for milking. And I also said to you that if we are wrong we have a pleasant surprise. If you are wrong the trib will so much harder for you.
Like myself and another guy said yesterday just be ready.

 

[mobius8curve]

I also am a post trib believer, however, the sequencing of events is a little different that the main consensus.
If we look at the passage in Matthew 24:29, we see the stars falling from heaven immediately after the tribulation.
So what are the stars that fall from heaven?
In Daniel 8:10, we see the little horn (aka the Antichrist) casting some of the heavens stars (The Lords angels who provide mankind with truth) to the ground and stamping on them.
In Revelation 12:4, we have another description, where the dragon's tail casts one third of heavens stars to the earth.
After casting the stars (truth) to the ground, the little horn then brings about prosperity, which in Revelation 13 as 42 months in which the whole world will be in love with the beast and Antichrist' system.
In short, first comes the tribulation, then comes the beasts 42 months, then comes the wrath of God on the beast and its worshipers.
Additional confirmation is provided in Revelation 8 & 9, where the environmental issues in Revelation 8 precede the key to the bottomless pit from which the beast will rise from the sea.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Revleation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Those "stars" represent the seed of Abraham:

Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Galatians 3:28-29 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

The dragon who with his tail drew the third part of the stars from heaven and cast them to the earth were those seed of Abraham who fall away from sitting in heaven places in Christ Jesus doing His good works:

Ephesians 2:5-10 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), (6) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: (7) that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: (8) for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (9) not of works, that no man should glory. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

They do not resist the devil through grace but fall back to the earth because of their double mindedness:

James 4:6-8 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore the scripture saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble. (7) Be subject therefore unto God; but resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye doubleminded.



1/3 of those with star glory that fall away from the truth:

Not an issue. You have probably never looked at the pretrib model.
According to the bible the ac kills everyone refusing the mark.
That is during the trib.
Also take a look at "...and they overcame by the blood...."
Keep reading
It says they overcame THROUGH DEATH.
They died.
According to the bible THE AC OVERCOMES THEM.
They in turn,overcome by dying.
The trib/wrath deal is emphasised by some,but is mostly moot

Jesus as well as most of the disciples were martyred through the many antichrists but we do not label that the wrath of God but it certainly is tribulation of those saints as well as many saints from Christ's ascension:

1 John 2:18-19 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour. (19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

Acts 14:22 confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God.

John 16:1-3 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be caused to stumble. (2) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God. (3) And these things will they do, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Jesus was speaking directly to the disciples and by extension every Christian from that point on who are the seed of Abraham whether Jew or Greek(Gentile):

Galatians 3:26-29 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. (27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ. (28) There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

Matthew 24:9-10 Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name's sake. (10) And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.

Matthew 10:21-23 And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child: and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. (22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. (23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Why can't most Christians see whether Jew or Gentile we are all one body, thus one olive tree, thus one commonwealth of Israel so that the cities of Israel are in every nation:

Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. (19) Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: (20) teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

All Israel is much bigger than most think:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/

 

[presidente]

Yes it was written for everyone to read. God throughout the Bible, spares believers, His children, from His wrath. Him, being perfect, would not punish His faithful children along with the ungodly. There will be those who become believers after the trib, seeing the prophesy fulfilled who will be persecuted.

Read what Revelation says about these overcomers. Do they really seem less faithful than you or other Christians you know nowadays?

Peter wrote about believers who sufferred according to the will of God. One group he addressed were servants. Some may have been being beaten for righteousness sake. The apostles Peter, John, and Paul were beaten for preaching the Gospel. Was that God 'punishing' them?

God was able to pour out His judgments on Egypt without getting any wrath or anger on His people. Why wouldn't He be able to do the same. If Revelation and the rest of the Bible does not teach that the church is raptured out before the tribulation, why would we assume it will be just because there will be suffering during that time? There are saints during the tribulation. Why would God want to punish them or appoint them to wrath, instead of to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ?

IMO, your line of reasoning does not make sense in the light of the New Testament teaching on believers suffering and what Revelation sais about these saints during the tribulation.

 

[iamsoandso]

"I told you once I told you over and over. There IS NO PRESENCE in the RAPTURE. God meets us in the couds. NOT HERE ON EARTH. If post trib were true, God would meet us ON EARTH not in the clouds"

Yes,a postrib rapture removes any purpose for a rapture

Not that I'm arguing,but just tying to follow the discussion so what do you see #726 and 3507 mean if not? https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm

 

[mobius8curve]

I also am a post trib believer, however, the sequencing of events is a little different that the main consensus.
If we look at the passage in Matthew 24:29, we see the stars falling from heaven immediately after the tribulation.
So what are the stars that fall from heaven?
In Daniel 8:10, we see the little horn (aka the Antichrist) casting some of the heavens stars (The Lords angels who provide mankind with truth) to the ground and stamping on them.
In Revelation 12:4, we have another description, where the dragon's tail casts one third of heavens stars to the earth.
After casting the stars (truth) to the ground, the little horn then brings about prosperity, which in Revelation 13 as 42 months in which the whole world will be in love with the beast and Antichrist' system.
In short, first comes the tribulation, then comes the beasts 42 months, then comes the wrath of God on the beast and its worshipers.
Additional confirmation is provided in Revelation 8 & 9, where the environmental issues in Revelation 8 precede the key to the bottomless pit from which the beast will rise from the sea.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Daniel 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Revleation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Those "stars" represent the seed of Abraham:

Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Galatians 3:28-29 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

The dragon who with his tail drew the third part of the stars from heaven and cast them to the earth were those seed of Abraham who fall away from sitting in heaven places in Christ Jesus doing His good works:

Ephesians 2:5-10 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), (6) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: (7) that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: (8) for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (9) not of works, that no man should glory. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

They do not resist the devil through grace but fall back to the earth because of their double mindedness:

James 4:6-8 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore the scripture saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble. (7) Be subject therefore unto God; but resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye doubleminded.

Those 1/3 of the stars represent those who had star glory but shrink back to the earth from heavenlies places and are named among the sons of perdition thus fulfilling they mystery of lawlessness:

1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Hebrews 10:35-39 Cast not away therefore your boldness, which hath great recompense of reward. (36) For ye have need of patience, that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise. (37) For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. (38) But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him. (39) But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/01/18/the-mystery-of-lawlessness/

 

[foolishone]

Not an issue. You have probably never looked at the pretrib model.
According to the bible the ac kills everyone refusing the mark.
That is during the trib.
Also take a look at "...and they overcame by the blood...."
Keep reading
It says they overcame THROUGH DEATH.
They died.
According to the bible THE AC OVERCOMES THEM.
They in turn,overcome by dying.
The trib/wrath deal is emphasised by some,but is mostly moot

Yes those who do not receive the mark of the beast would be those who are here for the wrath of God period. It is them that die because they chose God instead and they will return with Yeshua to reign a thousand years. Rev. 20

 

[preston39]

Amen Bro! Pretribbers have to play word games to prove a pretrib rapture! Anyone who studies the prophets as one can clearly see the tribulation is for the saints and the wrath is a full year that "immediately" follows the tribulation just as it was in the days of Noah that I clearly proved here:
https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

m....,

If your conclusion is biblical Then please explain the bible saying...(speaking to the Philadelphia church about the tribulation)....I will keep you from the hour that shall come upon all the earth, etc.

 

[presidente]

See. Here is how we discuss. And how things have to be taken if we are to get anywhere. Let take a look at your arguments here

1. You take that the “gathering” of Matt 24, and 1 thess 1 is equal. Or occure at the same time as the “catching up” or rapture of the church. So this is what you see. And you have every right to see it that way

So, have you changed your stance and admit that there is a 'gathering' and/or 'rapture'? I see these as the same event, btw.

2. I see them as two different events. And as two different things (one is a gathering, the other is a catching up. Or ressurection)

Here is why I think this

1. Context of matt 24. Jesus said he would return to earth. Because if he did not, no flesh would survive. When he returns and defeats the beast and the lost, He sends his angels to gather the elect from the 4 corners, and they most likey meet him where he is. Either way, He did nt come to save their physical life. Only to rapture them and remove them from the earth, If that was the case. He may as well just let them all die. And after we killed each other. Then come back.

It says except the days be shortened, there should no flesh be saved, not that if Jesus did not come back no flesh would survive. It's a fine point, but I thought I'd mention it.

I'm not sure what your point is? Are you saying since He could have just let them die and resurrected them, there was no reason to come back soon? God's plan is apparently for some to be alive and to be transformed at the rapture, so that should be good enough for us.

2. Jesus said God will raise us, not angels

john 6 39 - This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.)

2 cor 4: 14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you.


Even 1 thess 4 says Jesus comes, and he will raise the dead, and then the living will follow (no angels involved)

I haven't argued for the resurrection of angels, so you are going to have to give me more details for me to follow your line of reasoning here.

3. Matt says nothign about the dead being gathered, Only that for the sake of the elect. He will come and put and end to the war and gather them (the living) from the 4 corners.

Of course, that does not mean it does not happen. In II Thessalonians 2:1, Paul write to a church about 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him', which should give us an idea of who is being gathered when Jesus comes. I Thessalonians 4 gives us more details about the trump, the voice of the archangel, clouds, etc. Doesn't it make sense to interpret these as one event than to invent separate comings of Jesus?

So as you can see, I have 3 points, which lead to a different interpretation. But I did not just give my interpretation. I backed it up with what I believe, and other texts..

In this post, I do not see how you used any scriptures, above, to connect the dots. Where is the scripture that leads you to believe (presumably) that the dead are not rasied when Jesus gathered the elect? The issue is Paul speaking of the Lord's parousia as if it were an event to come. He uses the same word to refer to it in II Thes. 1:1 and 2:8 and I Thes. 4:15. So why shouldn't we see the rapture and the destruction of the man of sin as occurring at the one parousia of Christ? It's just simpler and it makes more sense. And it is reasonable for us to only interpret the 'parousia' as more than one return if there is some Biblical evidence for it.

So please stop saying i have not given any responses or told you what those passages mean. Because this is the 3rd or 4th time i have said these things.

What you are doing here is interpreting some passages through an interpretational grid you already hold to. You are filtering them through the lens of your eschatology. You aren't showing where you get the interpretational grid or lens. What scripture justifies NOT seeing these passages about the return of Christ as referring to the same event? That's what I have been talking about not seeing justification for.

How would you describe your own eschatology if not pre-trib? Weren't you saying there was no rapture or gathering a few posts ago? Are you pre-trib now? I am asking this honestly, because it looks to me like you changed your mind as to whether there would be a rapture or gathering between these posts. That's okay with me if you did. I just want to know what your stance is on the issue if we are discussing it.

Our disagreement is based on interpretaion of those verses. Nothing more..

And I am asking how you justify interpreting these passages as being about more than one return of Christ....if I understand you right. And it may be that I do not.


No. But they do talk about jesus coming to earth as king, they do speak of him returning to destroy the final beast of Daniel. And revelations shows us, this is exactly what happens. And matt 24 jesus himself references this time

All those things you just mentioned have nothing to do with our conversation. I gave you specific passages of scripture you could look to. All you just did is further show you are not listening to a thing I am saying. Why else would you mention things which have nothign to do with the passage I spoke of? [/QUOTE]

 

[foolishone]

m....,

If your conclusion is biblical Then please explain the bible saying...(speaking to the Philadelphia church about the tribulation)....I will keep you from the hour that shall come upon all the earth, etc.

The hour of trial is not the great tribulation.
πειρασμοῦ
peirasmou And do not lead us into temptation, ( testing, trial etc. ) but deliver us---- versus

θλῖψις
thlipsis Great tribulation matthew 24:21

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think most Christians truly understand how Father matures His saints from the milk to the meat but He clearly conceals His deeper truths by spreading out His precepts here a little, there a little so that we as kings under the King of kings must search out the truth all over His Word:

Isaiah 28:9-10 Whom will he teach knowledge? and whom will he make to understand the message? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts? (10) For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Ok first. Before we go any further. Comments like these are childish. They do not support your case, and all they do is make you out to be a proud man who thinks he has been enlightened whie everyone else is dumb. So in further responses to me, Cut this out, or I will no longer respond to you.

The word "cloud(s)" is most certainly mentioned in Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 with each passage adding more truth:

Matthew 24:29-31 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:25-28 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; (26) men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (28) But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.

Second, if you read my post you would have seen 1. I said cloud was not mentioned as for the DEAD being raised. And 2. As part of a ressurection.

You have failed to show otherwise. So again, Back your pride down alittle bit and lets talk like men.

Jesus was clearly including the "elect" who were dead and living in the book of Mark when He when He said "from the uttermost part of the earth"(the living) "to the uttermost part of heaven"(the dead).

He was also including the "dead" as part of the "elect" when in the book of Luke Jesus said "your redemption" to the disciples including the dead with the living will be brought together in the clouds at the beginning of the year of wrath which these passages of the rapture also add more truth to the "sum":

3. This is your opinion. Saying he MOST CERTAINLY IS, is not a FACTUAL STATMENT. It is your OPINION. Discussing the word is discussing opinions. And trying to show people your view or interpretation vs theirs, and seeing if they see the same thing, If you can not come to a point where you agree. You do not attack the other. You try to add more stuff to show your view, and they do the same, to see if you can come, If all else fails. You agree to disagree, and move on. This is a non salvic issue, Scripture says to not dispute over these things and become divided, Satan wants us to be divided. Let not let Satan win ok?

4. As for uttermost part of the earth to uttermost part of the heaven, All this tells me is no matter where a person is on earth (in the deepest cave hiding, or the highest mountain hiding) the angels will find them, and they ALL will be gathered together. (No rapture here. No death, Jesus did nto come to save the dead, he came to save the living “And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the[c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.” Matt 24)

Again, Romans 11 calls Israel (Believing or non believing) the elect. Just because you see the word elect does not mean all living or all dead.

Again, Jesus purpose for returning to earth was to SAVE THE LIFE of the LIVING, who would DIE if he did not return. So to say he RAPTURED them just destroyed the purpose for him comming, And leave NO ONE left on earth for him to rule.
So taking this into account, I can not with a sound mine place any form of rapture in these three chapters.

Also. The word GATHER, and RAISED or RAPTURE are not the same terms, they mean different things, You gather together the living so they all come to one place (Most likely jerusalem) YOU raise the dead, and you CATCH UP (RAPTURE the living.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; (17) then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

These are rapture verses, where the dead are RAISED, and the living are RAPTURED, where we will meet in heaven, Has nothign to do with gathering the LIVING on earth when jesus returns to set up his kingdom.
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[eternally-gratefull]

Had to break into 2 parts. Again too long..

quote]Revelation 14:12-16 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them. (14) And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (15) And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (16) And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.

I see nothing here about the return to earth of the king. Here I see him recieving his harvest. Agan two different events

You also have another issue.

Rev 5:
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”


Here you have saints Already resurected (raptured. Already given their glorified bodies. And alreay haven gone through their judgment, Sitting in the throne room, watching the lamb open the 1st seal.

If the rapture does not happen UNTIL the end, as you say, Where did these people come from?
They were already raptures.d, The rapture PRECEDED these events. (Depending on who you talk to this is either the begining of the seven years, or the beginning of the 3.5 years of wrath. I lean towards the second, which the rapture and bema seat judgment (1 cor 13) happening before these events. but am not set in stone wth that interpretation.

Your assumption that every passage of the rapture/resurrection must be carbon copies of each other is not how Father conceals His truths!!!

Again, opinion not based on fact, It goes much deeper than this, as I have been tryign to show in all of my posts. Including the issue I just presented to you about the rapture already being taken place BEFORE the 1st seal is opened. (Yes they may be elders. But elders represent the churhc, Nothing says dthe rest of the raptured people were nto also in the room, the focus was on the elders. WHo ere already raptured.

I see absolutely no "clouds" mentioned in this passage where the heavens are opened and Jesus comes with His armies at the end of that year of wrath to destroy the beast and set up His kingdom on earth:

Revelation 19:11-16 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself. (13) And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure. (15) And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. (16) And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Yep. Again, Where is the rapture here. This is his return, TO SAVE THE LIVES OF HE LIVING ELECT LIVING ON EARTH. Who would DIE along with ALL LIFE if jesus did not return at this time..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"I told you once I told you over and over. There IS NO PRESENCE in the RAPTURE. God meets us in the couds. NOT HERE ON EARTH. If post trib were true, God would meet us ON EARTH not in the clouds"

Yes,a postrib rapture removes any purpose for a rapture

Who is this directed to me?