The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

[TheDivineWatermark]

Paul, in 2Th2, is covering events over the ENTIRE STRETCH of SEVEN YEARS (and the singular EVENT which immediately PRECEDES those years). That is, how the one RELATES [TIME-WISE] to the other.
The 7-yr period covered in 2Th2:
--its BEGINNING (2Th2:9a [Dan9:27a(26)])
--its MIDDLE (2Th2:4 [Dan9:27b])
--its END (2Th2:8 [Dan9:27c])
(all correlating with SAME "beg/mid/end" in Dan9:27[26])

It is a mistake (commonly espoused) to say that Paul was addressing a singular point in time (a singular 24-hr day, for example), in 2Th2.

^ EDIT: I need to clarify by EDITING the third bullet point. Where I'd written:

"--its END (2Th2:8 [Dan9:27c])"

… it needs to read (instead):

"--its END (2Th2:8b [Dan9:27c])"

V.8b is about "its END"
(but 8a is about "its BEGINNING" at the START of the 7 years / its ARRIVAL [and the ARRIVAL/presence of "the man of sin" and his "be revealed" at that time (at the START of the 7 years/its BEGINNING)])

 

[calledoutones777]

No brainer.
You,engage questions robotically by referrals.
You direct members AWAY from the forum.

You curse the brethren through your so called prophesy.
Very pathetic strategy you have.
I personally champion intimacy with my savior.
Your catholic methods ( you can only hear God through me) is ancient error.
Stop acting like your mess is God controlling people through you.

I am sensing a spirit of witchcraft operating through you.
No doubt you are hyper narcissism. That is WHY you try to controll and manipulate through false prophecy

A Prophetic word unto you... I REBUKE YOU SATAN Get BEHIND ME... For did I not say if a man seems to be wise, let him become a fool, so that I could make him wise, saith YAHOSHUA, who is the CHRIST unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures... 1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Where are your scriptures proving that what she is saying is WRONG, saith YAHOSHUA, for YOUR WORDS MEAN NOTHING TO ME.. IT is My FATHER'S WORDS that I FOLLOW saith YAHOSHUA< who is Christ, meaning the ANOINTED ONE, unto the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, who are YOU, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH. For no man has taught her, but I through My SPIRIT, saith YAHOSHUA, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.
2 Timothy 3:15-18 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ YAHOSHUA. All scripture is given by inspiration of the FATHER, and is PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of the FATHER may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Do you not UNDERSTAND that you have to CORRECT THEM THROUGH MY WORDS, NOT YOURS THOUGHTS. For your THOUGHTS are not MY THOUGHTS, have you not READ? Saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ unto the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures... Isaiah 55:8-9 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our the FATHER, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

PROVE ME WRONG, through MY FATHER’S WORDS, OR GET BEHIND ME, saith YAHOSHUA, for you do not KNOW ME, or My FATHER who sent Me, unto the LOST SHEEP of the HOUSE of ISRAEL, for they have only been making you THINK that you do, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures... Jeremiah 4:20-22 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Do not ALLOW YOURSELF to AWAKEN in a PLACE YOU HAVE NO IDEA, WHEN, WHERE, OR HOW YOU GOT THERE, saith YAHOSHUA. For now you have been WARNED.



Shalom

 

[TabinRivCA]

Please carefully study every passage in this link as a "sum" from "here a little there a little":

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

The bible does not contradict itself so please obey Father's command on how to be weaned off the breast before posting some "opinion" based on a couple of verses:

Isaiah 28:7-13 And even these reel with wine, and stagger with strong drink; the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they stagger with strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. (8) For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. (9) Whom will he teach knowledge? and whom will he make to understand the message? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts? (10) For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little. (11) Nay, but by men of strange lips and with another tongue will he speak to this people; (12) to whom he said, This is the rest, give ye rest to him that is weary; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. (13) Therefore shall the word of Jehovah be unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little; that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

How about just 'Be Ready'. That's the answer God spoke to Paul Crouch after a heated debate on the broadcast about pre, mid and post trib.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

continuation of my previous [two] post:

...so that, where we see 2Th2:1 speak of "the coming/Parousia of OUR Lord Jesus Christ [etc]" [speaking of our Rapture event/point in time, here (BEFORE the trib STARTS)] and verse 8b "[that Wicked...] whom the Lord Jesus will consume with the breath of His mouth and will annul by the appearing of His coming/parousia" [this being at the END of the 7 years], are TWO DISTINCT things/events/time-frames.


[you'll find that the phrases "coming of OUR Lord Jesus/Lord Jesus Christ" (with the "OUR" included) very often, if not ALWAYS, refer to the time pertaining to our Rapture--that is, pertaining to "the Church which is His body"; not so in the other contexts (of His "RETURN" to the earth)]

 

[calledoutones777]

How about just 'Be Ready'. That's the answer God spoke to Paul Crouch after a heated debate on the broadcast about pre, mid and post trib.

How about just 'Be Ready'. That's the answer God spoke to Paul Crouch after a heated debate on the broadcast about pre, mid and post trib.

A Prophetic word.. I PRAYED to My FATHER NOT TO TAKE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scripture... John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Did you not READ, that My FATHER is AGAINST THOSE WHO TEACH HIS CHILDREN TO "FLY" to SAVE their SOULS, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ meaning the ANOINTED ONE, unto YOU, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Ezekiel 13:20-23 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, eventhe souls that ye hunt to make them fly. Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

I AM COMING UNTO YOU, SO WHERE DO YOU WANT TO GO.. Heaven as ALSO BEEN ON THIS EARTH, Thy KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE, ON EARTH, ON EARTH, as it is in HEAVEN. This is how I taught you to PRAY, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ,unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the ANCESTORS of the JEWS, that DID NOT RECEIVE ME, when I CAME UNTO THEM, I AM, MESSIAH,

I AM YAHOSHUA, whose NAME is SHOWING YOU THE THREE NAMES of the THREE WITNESSES that are NEEDED to BEAR RECORD in HEAVEN as well as in EARTH.

Yah..... who is My FATHER
YOSHUA........WHO I AM, THE "WORD" as well as the SON
AH.............Which is SIGNIFIED by the HOLY SPIRIT, through the COVENANT AGREEMENT, that I HAVE

TOGETHER, this SPELLS "YAHOSHUA" WHO I AM, for this is HOW YOU FIND ME....

Now, you show me in the name of JESUS/YESHUA, or any other name showing you these names.. For I tell you this.. If My FATHER is BEARING RECORD to MY NAME, HIS WORD is "GREATER" Then MAN'S, and YES, EVEN YOURS, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ, unto YOU who are of the GENTILE NATIONS, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures...
1John 5:7-13 FOR THERE ARE “THREE" WITNESSES THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE “FATHER", THE “WORD", and THE “HOLY SPIRIT": AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the “SPIRIT", and the “WATER" and the “BLOOD": and these THREE all AGREE in “ONE. If we receive the WITNESS of MEN, the “WITNESS" of the FATHER is GREATER: for this is the witness of the FATHER WHICH “HE” HATH “TESTIFIED” of His “SON”. He that believeth on the Son of the FATHER HATH THE “WITNESS” IN “HIMSELF”: he that believeth NOT THE FATHER HATH MADE “HIM”, [meaning the FATHER] A “LIAR"; because he believeth not the RECORD THAT THE FATHER GAVE HIS “SON". AND THIS IS THE “RECORD" THAT THE FATHER HATH GIVEN TO US “ETERNAL LIFE", AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS “SON”. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of the FATHER hath not life. These things have I written unto you that BELIEVE ON THE “NAME" OF THE “SON" of the FATHER; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE “ETERNAL LIFE", and that ye may believe on the name of the “SON” of the FATHER.


SHALOM

 

[presidente]

Why do you even bother? Clanging has absolutely nothing to do with what I asked.

If it was not my point of view I never would have asked. You assume way to much, then expect me to listen to you? It also proves you have barely read anythign I have posted. If you did, you would know otherwise.

I'm not going to look back, but I recall you said to look at #31 and #35, and #31 has the 'clanging' post and the line I posted in the last post that I said does not seem to represent your views. . I am not going to triple check this.
[/quote]

It can not make sense, Because WAY to much has to occure from the time we are ressurected. Until we can even come down. Plus as already shown. You have NO ONE LEFT ON EARTH.

Show me proof no one will be left on earth after Jesus gets back under a post-trib scenario.

You ca spin it how you want, but two many unanswered problems with the thinking that the rapture and return at end of tribulation are the same

I am sure you have many problems in your mind with post-trib. But that doesn't effect me. You have to show a problem between post-trib and the Bible.

Again, the burden of proof is on pre-tribbers to show that there is more than one coming/parousia of Christ. Paul puts the rapture of the church at the parousia. He writes concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him in II Thessalonians 2, then says the man of sin will be destroyed by the brightnes of His coming.

I would like to see you seriously address those issues.

So unless you have some solid pre-trib evidence, for example the Bible actually showing a rapture before the tribulation and stating that there is more than one parousia after the ascensions, as a premillinealist, you should opt for post-trib or something similar.

Ok, I am done with your nonsense

1. You refuse to answer questions

Which one.

2. You attack instead of actually trying to discuss

No, I just pointed out you were asserting stuff, not showing where the Bible supports your viewpoint.

3. You assume things not in evidence (I have never claimed to be pre-trib)

4. Your arguing based on what you have been taught I believe, Not on what we actually do believe.

I apologize if you are not pre-trib. What eschatology do you believe in? midtrib?
Your arguments seemed pre-trib to me.

Good luck, As usual with people. You can never have any kind of normal converstaion because your to busy trying to prove yourself right, then trying to understand what the other person is saying, meaning you have no capacity to discuss things, because your main points are based on false truths.

Honestly, I feel the same way about your posts. But look back at your posts and I think you will see they are more filled with accusations against other viewpoints than my own. My guess is that is where the 'clanging' comment came in, the one you mistakenly referred me to.

I am also quite capable of holding civil discussions as I have with many others on the forum.

But it looks likely to me that you are actually dodging this conversation because you cannot provide a good answer to the problem of the things that happen at the parousia that do not fit with your eschatology.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

continuation of my previous posts:

"G726 harpagēsometha " is in the PASSIVE (1Th4:17). It is not something WE are "TO" do [active]. But what He does to and for us ("the Church which is His body"). It is not a "flying" nor a "flight" nor related to "fly".

Luke 21:36's "[ACTIVELY] FLEE OUT OF..." is not a Rapture verse/passage.

 

[calledoutones777]

continuation of my previous [two] post:

...so that, where we see 2Th2:1 speak of "the coming/Parousia of OUR Lord Jesus Christ [etc]" [speaking of our Rapture event/point in time, here (BEFORE the trib STARTS)] and verse 8b "[that Wicked...] whom the Lord Jesus will consume with the breath of His mouth and will annul by the appearing of His coming/parousia" [this being at the END of the 7 years], are TWO DISTINCT things/events/time-frames.


[you'll find that the phrases "coming of OUR Lord Jesus/Lord Jesus Christ" (with the "OUR" included) very often, if not ALWAYS, refer to the time pertaining to our Rapture--that is, pertaining to "the Church which is His body"; not so in the other contexts (of His "RETURN" to the earth)]

A Prophetic word.. I PRAYED to My FATHER NOT TO TAKE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scripture... John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Did you not READ, that My FATHER is AGAINST THOSE WHO TEACH HIS CHILDREN TO "FLY" to SAVE their SOULS, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ meaning the ANOINTED ONE, unto YOU, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Ezekiel 13:20-23 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, eventhe souls that ye hunt to make them fly. Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

I AM COMING UNTO YOU, SO WHERE DO YOU WANT TO GO.. Heaven as ALSO BEEN ON THIS EARTH, Thy KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE, ON EARTH, ON EARTH, as it is in HEAVEN. This is how I taught you to PRAY, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ,unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the ANCESTORS of the JEWS, that DID NOT RECEIVE ME, when I CAME UNTO THEM, I AM, MESSIAH,

I AM YAHOSHUA, whose NAME is SHOWING YOU THE THREE NAMES of the THREE WITNESSES that are NEEDED to BEAR RECORD in HEAVEN as well as in EARTH.

Yah..... who is My FATHER
YOSHUA........WHO I AM, THE "WORD" as well as the SON
AH.............Which is also in My FATHER'S NAME which is "YAH", the "AH" which SIGNIFIED by the HOLY SPIRIT, through the COVENANT AGREEMENT, that I HAVE

TOGETHER, this SPELLS "YAHOSHUA" WHO I AM, for this is HOW YOU FIND ME.... If you were to take the "AH" out of My NAME "YAHOSHUA", it would leave you with "YOSHUA" who I AM THE "WORD" which came unto you in the FLESH, saith YAHOSHUA.

Now, you show me in the name of JESUS/YESHUA, or any other name showing you these names.. For I tell you this.. If My FATHER is BEARING RECORD to MY NAME, HIS WORD is "GREATER" Then MAN'S, and YES, EVEN YOURS, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ, unto YOU who are of the GENTILE NATIONS, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures...
1John 5:7-13 FOR THERE ARE “THREE" WITNESSES THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE “FATHER", THE “WORD", and THE “HOLY SPIRIT": AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the “SPIRIT", and the “WATER" and the “BLOOD": and these THREE all AGREE in “ONE. If we receive the WITNESS of MEN, the “WITNESS" of the FATHER is GREATER: for this is the witness of the FATHER WHICH “HE” HATH “TESTIFIED” of His “SON”. He that believeth on the Son of the FATHER HATH THE “WITNESS” IN “HIMSELF”: he that believeth NOT THE FATHER HATH MADE “HIM”, [meaning the FATHER] A “LIAR"; because he believeth not the RECORD THAT THE FATHER GAVE HIS “SON". AND THIS IS THE “RECORD" THAT THE FATHER HATH GIVEN TO US “ETERNAL LIFE", AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS “SON”. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of the FATHER hath not life. These things have I written unto you that BELIEVE ON THE “NAME" OF THE “SON" of the FATHER; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE “ETERNAL LIFE", and that ye may believe on the name of the “SON” of the FATHER.


SHALOM

 

[presidente]

See this is typical.
You provide several examples of your "knowledge" of my points/Doctrine.

Most of it wrong.

Then you make a case that you believe you are appointed to wrath.

I think you may have a problem with your reading comprehension skills today.

Saints who live during the tribulation are not appointed unto wrath, not the wrath of God, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Cont.

We are called to distinguish the things that differ...


rather than blur it all together into one mish-mash of mush.


The "chronology" and "sequential" issues are often overlooked, viewing "timing-words" and "time-related" issues as fluff and of little importance... (i.e. incorrectly thinking Jesus STILL does not know the day or the hour of His Second Coming to the earth [when His LATER Revelation [95ad] discloses this very thing])

 

[calledoutones777]

continuation of my previous posts:

"G726 harpagēsometha " is in the PASSIVE (1Th4:17). It is not something WE are "TO" do [active]. But what He does to and for us ("the Church which is His body"). It is not a "flying" nor a "flight" nor related to "fly".

Luke 21:36's "[ACTIVELY] FLEE OUT OF..." is not a Rapture verse/passage.

A Prophetic word... JOHN 17:15
I PRAY "NOT" THAT THOU shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.


A PROPHETIC WORD unto YOU. Ezekiel 13:20-23 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life: Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Do now allow yourself to AWAKEN, in a PLACE YOU HAVE NO IDEA, WHEN, WHERE, or HOW YOU GOT THERE, LISTEN TO MY WORDS, for I AM NOT SENT TO EVERYONE, but I AM TRYING TO AWAKEN YOU, for his is your VISITATION, saith YAHOSHUA, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. Luke 19:40-44 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

It is TIME TO AWAKEN FROM YOU SLEEP, AWAKEN if only for a little while and listen to My WORDS, that I have sent unto you through My BRIDE, saith YAHOSHUA, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. Revelation 22:16-17 I YAHOSHUA HAVE SENT MINE “ANGEL", [which means a messenger] TO TESTIFY UNTO YOU THESE THINGS IN THE “CHURCHES”. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. AND THE “SPIRIT”, [who I AM, saith YAHOSHUA] and the “BRIDE” [who she is, who is speaking to you now] SAY COME. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.




Shalom

 

[calledoutones777]

Cont.

We are called to distinguish the things that differ...


rather than blur it all together into one mish-mash of mush.


The "chronology" and "sequential" issues are often overlooked, viewing "timing-words" and "time-related" issues as fluff and of little importance... (i.e. incorrectly thinking Jesus STILL does not know the day or the hour of His Second Coming to the earth [when His LATER Revelation [95ad] discloses this very thing])

A Prophetic word unto you.. YOU ARE NOT LISTENING, nor or you READING.. I chasten those in whom I LOVE but not for long... I AM LEAVING YOU NOW. If you FIND YOURSELF ON THE LEFT SIDE OF ME, then THESES Conversations will come back into your MEMORY, saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ meaning the ANOINTED ONE, unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, for you have BEEN WARNED, and you will never be able to say unto ME, I DID NOT KNOW THIS... For now I have made you ACCOUNTABLE, saith YAHOSHUA.

Shalom

 

[presidente]

Jesus only "RETURNS" ONCE (that is, to the earth). At that time, His "Parousia/Presence" will be there, for ALL to see.

At the time of our Rapture (that is, "IN THE AIR"), His "Parousia/Presence" will be THERE, that is, ONLY in the presence of "the Church which is His body," to whom the Rapture SOLELY pertains.



Paul, in 2Th2, is covering events over the ENTIRE STRETCH of SEVEN YEARS (and the singular EVENT which immediately PRECEDES those years). That is, how the one RELATES [TIME-WISE] to the other.


The 7-yr period covered in 2Th2:

--its BEGINNING (2Th2:9a [Dan9:27a(26)])

--its MIDDLE (2Th2:4 [Dan9:27b])

--its END (2Th2:8 [Dan9:27c])

(all correlating with SAME "beg/mid/end" in Dan9:27[26])

It is a mistake (commonly espoused) to say that Paul was addressing a singular point in time (a singular 24-hr day, for example), in 2Th2.

Why should I believe that. Interpreting the 'parousia' as a one-time event that Paul is referring to is a much simpler interpretation. Why wouldn't the church be here during that seven year period? The church is here when Jesus returns in II Thessalonians 1. You have to realize the way you are interpreting II Thessalonians 2 is rather weak, very much a stretch. If there is no other scripture to lead that conclusion, why believe that? Lots of preachers saying that isn't a real reason. Now wanting to suffer through the tribulation isn't a valid reason either.


Why believe in a pre-tribulation rapture if there is no passage that shows a rapture happenign before a seven year period? The reason I see is because the pretrib preacher says 'The rapture occurs before this seven year period', and makes similar assertions about other Biblical texts over and over again until people see things through that pre-trib lens.

 

[calledoutones777]

A PROPHETIC WORD UNTO YOU.. I REBUKE this SPIRIT of CONFUSION, that is upon you.. For YOU ARE NOT LISTENING TO ME, FOR I HAVE NEVER TAUGHT YOU THAT THERE WAS A RAPTURE.. READ what I AM SENDING YOU, before it is too late for you to hear this, saith YAHOSHUA, who is CHRIST UNTO YOU, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH.

Shalom

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Why should I believe that.

[…]

Why believe in a pre-tribulation rapture if there is no passage that shows a rapture happenign before a seven year period? The reason I see is because the pretrib preacher says 'The rapture occurs before this seven year period', and makes similar assertions about other Biblical texts over and over again until people see things through that pre-trib lens.

Recall, I did mention in an earlier post, that 2 Thessalonians 2 [where Paul giving a corrective covering the issue of] is "when/how ONE EVENT happens IN RELATION [TIME-WISE] TO other events" (and that the passage is covering a SEVEN-YR time period, rather than just a singular moment/time-frame/24-hr "day"... and showed [briefly] how so).

The problem enters when we don't define the phrases found within the passage biblically, and/or at their base/basic meaning, and also some grammatically-incongruencing problems [I made that word up ]. For example, often mis-defined is: "the Day of the Lord" to be [wrongly] meaning "a 24-hr day" (it isn't). The Thessalonians [wrongly] believed [were being convinced] that it [the time period] "IS PRESENT" (it wasn't).

Etc...

 

[calledoutones777]

Why should I believe that. Interpreting the 'parousia' as a one-time event that Paul is referring to is a much simpler interpretation. Why wouldn't the church be here during that seven year period? The church is here when Jesus returns in II Thessalonians 1. You have to realize the way you are interpreting II Thessalonians 2 is rather weak, very much a stretch. If there is no other scripture to lead that conclusion, why believe that? Lots of preachers saying that isn't a real reason. Now wanting to suffer through the tribulation isn't a valid reason either.


Why believe in a pre-tribulation rapture if there is no passage that shows a rapture happenign before a seven year period? The reason I see is because the pretrib preacher says 'The rapture occurs before this seven year period', and makes similar assertions about other Biblical texts over and over again until people see things through that pre-trib lens.

A Prophetic word unto you.. YAHOSHUA is coming FIRST through his SPIRIT through his BRIDE, to prepare his first fruits. Then again AFTER the TRIBULATION, to receive the true CHURCH in whom his BRIDE has prepared, for Me too MARRY... This will be when he comes in HIS "GLORY" which means HIS SPIRIT BODY, and we will all be changed. Not to go anywhere, but just to be able to see our TRUE SAVIOR, who is in SPIRIT FORM... Have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Matthew 25:31-33 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Revelation 22:16-17 I YAHOSHUA HAVE SENT MINE “ANGEL", [which means a messenger] TO TESTIFY UNTO YOU THESE THINGS IN THE “CHURCHES”. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. AND THE “SPIRIT”, [who I AM, saith YAHOSHUA] and the “BRIDE” [who she is, who is speaking to you now] SAY COME. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Shalom

 

[calledoutones777]

A Prophetic word unto you.. YAHOSHUA is coming FIRST through his SPIRIT through his BRIDE, to prepare his first fruits. Then again AFTER the TRIBULATION, to receive the true CHURCH in whom his BRIDE has prepared, for Me too MARRY... This will be when he comes in HIS "GLORY" which means HIS SPIRIT BODY, and we will all be changed. Not to go anywhere, but just to be able to see our TRUE SAVIOR, who is in SPIRIT FORM... Have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures.. 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Matthew 25:31-33 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Revelation 22:16-17 I YAHOSHUA HAVE SENT MINE “ANGEL", [which means a messenger] TO TESTIFY UNTO YOU THESE THINGS IN THE “CHURCHES”. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. AND THE “SPIRIT”, [who I AM, saith YAHOSHUA] and the “BRIDE” [who she is, who is speaking to you now] SAY COME. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Shalom

A Prophetic word unto you... I REBUKE YOU SATAN Get BEHIND ME... For did I not say if a man seems to be wise, let him become a fool, so that I could make him wise, saith YAHOSHUA, who is the CHRIST unto YOU, who are of the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures... 1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Where are your scriptures proving that what she is saying is WRONG, saith YAHOSHUA, for YOUR WORDS MEAN NOTHING TO ME.. IT is My FATHER'S WORDS that I FOLLOW saith YAHOSHUA< who is Christ, meaning the ANOINTED ONE, unto the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, who are YOU, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH. For no man has taught her, but I through My SPIRIT, saith YAHOSHUA, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures. 2 Timothy 3:15-18 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ YAHOSHUA. All scripture is given by inspiration of the FATHER, and is PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of the FATHER may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Do you not UNDERSTAND that you have to CORRECT THEM THROUGH MY WORDS, NOT YOURS THOUGHTS. For your THOUGHTS are not MY THOUGHTS, have you not READ? Saith YAHOSHUA, who is Christ unto the GENTILE NATIONS/NATIONALITIES of the WORLD, called MANKIND, and unto the JEWS, I AM, MESSIAH, fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures...
Isaiah 55:8-9 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our the FATHER, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

PROVE ME WRONG, through MY FATHER’S WORDS, OR GET BEHIND ME, saith YAHOSHUA, for you do not KNOW ME, or My FATHER who sent Me, unto the LOST SHEEP of the HOUSE of ISRAEL, for they have only been making you THINK that you do, have you not READ? Fulfilling the FATHER Scriptures... Jeremiah 4:20-22 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Do not ALLOW YOURSELF to AWAKEN in a PLACE YOU HAVE NO IDEA, WHEN, WHERE, OR HOW YOU GOT THERE, saith YAHOSHUA. For now you have been WARNED.



Shalom

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not going to look back, but I recall you said to look at #31 and #35, and #31 has the 'clanging' post and the line I posted in the last post that I said does not seem to represent your views. . I am not going to triple check this.



Show me proof no one will be left on earth after Jesus gets back under a post-trib scenario.



I am sure you have many problems in your mind with post-trib. But that doesn't effect me. You have to show a problem between post-trib and the Bible.

Again, the burden of proof is on pre-tribbers to show that there is more than one coming/parousia of Christ. Paul puts the rapture of the church at the parousia. He writes concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him in II Thessalonians 2, then says the man of sin will be destroyed by the brightnes of His coming.

I would like to see you seriously address those issues.

So unless you have some solid pre-trib evidence, for example the Bible actually showing a rapture before the tribulation and stating that there is more than one parousia after the ascensions, as a premillinealist, you should opt for post-trib or something similar.



Which one.


No, I just pointed out you were asserting stuff, not showing where the Bible supports your viewpoint.


I apologize if you are not pre-trib. What eschatology do you believe in? midtrib?
Your arguments seemed pre-trib to me.



Honestly, I feel the same way about your posts. But look back at your posts and I think you will see they are more filled with accusations against other viewpoints than my own. My guess is that is where the 'clanging' comment came in, the one you mistakenly referred me to.

I am also quite capable of holding civil discussions as I have with many others on the forum.

But it looks likely to me that you are actually dodging this conversation because you cannot provide a good answer to the problem of the things that happen at the parousia that do not fit with your eschatology.

The burden of proof is on you my friend. Your the one who states there is no biblical proof in anything but post trib. Thus you must prove your theory, which you have failed to do.

But no one can talk to you. You have already made up your mind, Every time I give you evidence, you either ignore it, or excuse it away.

You can not have civil discussion if you are always attacking the one your trying to discuss with “You pretribbers” or not understanding a thing they say (According to YOUR BELIEF, if it is to be followed. There would be no one left on earth) You keep telling me to prove it, I do not have to. Because the bible does not say it, It says ALL saved people will be left on earth. So asking me to prove YOUR theory seems nonsensical does it not?

My posts are arguments which are my opinion of why your belief can not be true, But I do not attack you (you ostribbers. Or you believe this or that) I am taking what you say, and showing why I can not believe them.

Either way, Thanks Since you have no desire to discuss.. I will no longer bother you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think you may have a problem with your reading comprehension skills today.

Remember, this person just told me he can have a civil discussion.

Nope. Do not see evidence of this at all.

 

[presidente]

The burden of proof is on you my friend. Your the one who states there is no biblical proof in anything but post trib. Thus you must prove your theory, which you have failed to do.

Why would I have to prove that there is Biblical proof for something other than the position I hold? I never said that, btw. I haven't seen Biblical proof the tribulation happens before the rapture.

I presented a big problem for those who say the rapture occurs before Jesus comes back. The Bible places the rapture at the coming of Christ. I wanted to discuss it with you. You backed out.

If you aren't pretrib, and I assumed you were, I apologize. I don't mean to put words in your mouth. I could also have mixed up another poster with you.

Btw, what is up with the bold blue text?

But no one can talk to you. You have already made up your mind, Every time I give you evidence, you either ignore it, or excuse it away.

I feel the same way about your posts, but I am not offended. How long have you been on these forums. People disagree rather strongly with each other around here, usually, without getting offended. I didn't mean to offend you.

You can not have civil discussion if you are always attacking the one your trying to discuss with “You pretribbers” or not understanding a thing they say (According to YOUR BELIEF, if it is to be followed. There would be no one left on earth)

Well, if you aren't a pretribber, I apologize. Try to read it without any sarcasm in my voice when I write to you. I do not believe no one will be left on earth. Now, that's a straw man. This is your theory.

You keep telling me to prove it, I do not have to. Because the bible does not say it, It says ALL saved people will be left on earth. So asking me to prove YOUR theory seems nonsensical does it not?

What are you talking about? If I remember right, it was you who did not take 'He that endureth to the end shall be saved' to refer to eternal salvation. So why would you attribute that idea to me. I view that passage as directed to disciples, anyway.