Calvinism Critiqued

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
GraceAndTruth said:
Calvin did not write the doctrines of grace, Theodore Beza wrote them in rebuttal to Jacob Arminus' Remonstrances
Click to expand...
No, Theodore Beza did not write "the doctrine of grace". It was the Synod of Dort (a synod or council of Reformed Churches) which produced the Canons of Dort in Dordtrecht, in the Netherlands (1618-19), as a rebuttal to Arminianism. The Five Points of TULIP represent these more or less, as they do also the Westminster Confession of Faith (also reflected in the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith).

Disclaimer: Reformed Theology presents a False Gospel, even though some of their theology may be true.
 
Nehemiah6 said:
No, Theodore Beza did not write "the doctrine of grace". It was the Synod of Dort (a synod or council of Reformed Churches) which produced the Canons of Dort in Dordtrecht, in the Netherlands (1618-19), as a rebuttal to Arminianism. The Five Points of TULIP represent these more or less, as they do also the Westminster Confession of Faith (also reflected in the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith).

Disclaimer: Reformed Theology presents a False Gospel, even though some of their theology may be true.
Click to expand...
ROFL
The early elders created the creeds that define what a Christian must believe. Then outside of that it is to disagree to disagree. Calvinism and Arminianism fall into that category. You claiming Calvinism is a false gospel flies in the face of the Biblical defense of Calvinism and Arminianism. Go read the Canons of Dort which is the Biblical Defense of Calvinism. It is heavily filled with scripture verses attesting to the Biblical nature of it. Arminianism has a similar document. Nowhere in either is the gospel message changed in any way. Obviously you failed to do proper investigation into Calvinism.
 
I did extensive research into the Quinquarticular Controversy. (Calvinism vs Arminianism) Here is a copy of the text I use to give people like you the complete Biblical nature of both sides of the contraversy. Refute their Biblical defense if you can. The Biblical defense of Calvinism is the Canons of Dort!

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/
 
Nehemiah6 said:
No, Theodore Beza did not write "the doctrine of grace". It was the Synod of Dort (a synod or council of Reformed Churches) which produced the Canons of Dort in Dordtrecht, in the Netherlands (1618-19), as a rebuttal to Arminianism. The Five Points of TULIP represent these more or less, as they do also the Westminster Confession of Faith (also reflected in the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith).

Disclaimer: Reformed Theology presents a False Gospel, even though some of their theology may be true.
Click to expand...

TULIP's Origins and Emphasis (from the web site of the SBC aka Southern Baptists)

After the death of John Calvin, Theodore Beza and other Calvinist theologians reformed their doctrine around predestination in the matter of salvation and developed their various "doctrines of grace." Their major emphasis on divine sovereignty led to theological assertions that caused division in the Reformed theological community. Jacob Arminius, a Dutch student of Beza, countered some Calvinist teaching. In 1610, the "Arminians" crafted five articles which affirmed the election of believers but disagreed with the Calvinists' interpretation of election. In 1618, the Calvinists of the Dutch Reformed Church convened the Synod of Dort in order to condemn the Arminians and their five points. Dort's "five heads" of doctrine were later rearranged under the acronym TULIP.
 
Endoscopy said:
Just looked up Theodore Beza and it mentioned he was a disciple of Calvin but among all of his writings it never mentions the 5 points of Calvinism. So where did you find that reference please.[/QUOTE


TULIP's Origins and Emphasis ( copied from SBC page - Southern Baptist)

After the death of John Calvin, Theodore Beza and other Calvinist theologians reformed their doctrine around predestination in the matter of salvation and developed their various "doctrines of grace." Their major emphasis on divine sovereignty led to theological assertions that caused division in the Reformed theological community. Jacob Arminius, a Dutch student of Beza, countered some Calvinist teaching. In 1610, the "Arminians" crafted five articles which affirmed the election of believers but disagreed with the Calvinists' interpretation of election. In 1618, the Calvinists of the Dutch Reformed Church convened the Synod of Dort in order to condemn the Arminians and their five points. Dort's "five heads" of doctrine were later rearranged under the acronym TULIP.
Click to expand...
 
Laish said:
It’s more than a bit depressing that so close to a time that many chose to remember the birth of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ that we step down and act like the folks we try to evangelize. We fail to see our fellow believers as brother and sister in Christ. Instead we decide to show our superiority to the other brother by throwing insults.
May our Lord have mercy on us all .
I love all you folks here even those that I disagree with . I have in the past thrown a barb or two to my shame . Forgive me please . If we disagree let’s be civil. There is a real person on the other side .
What’s really depressing is these are precise type of arguments that keep folks away from the truth of our Lord.
Think about it . Look at what we have posted . What will a seeker find ? Are we going to be recognized as being Christ’s by our love for one another?
Blessings
A brother in Christ
Bill
Click to expand...
Very good post Bill. We should all take heed to your suggestion. I am fairly sure that all on this forum are born again children of God and doctrinal beliefs will not keep any of us out of heaven.
 
p_rehbein said:
Which is WHY I keep saying that people who believe in predestination should identify themselves as disciples of Christ, not Calvin. They then would be Christians who believe in predestination......like you!

In my opinion, when people seek to be a disciple of a man, they are elevating the man over the Lord. Some tried to do this with the Apostle Paul, and he would have none of it. Why celebrate the man when one can celebrate the Lord? And, on this or the other Thread, don't remember which, I said that God can use bad people to accomplish good things............ But, WHY be a disciple of Calvin when one can be a disciple of Jesus Christ? Makes no sense to me............

God bless you and yours
Click to expand...
Many people began to believe what a person is saying just because of the repeated statements, over and over, like PFT has been doing. I want to make it perfectly clear that I have never read Calvin's writings and am not a disciple of any man except the man/God Jesus Christ. PTF has made many statements as to what he thinks I believe and about half of it is true. Anything that we hear from man should be checked out against scripture instead of taking his word for truth.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
Fine so be it.

I should have known though, Like many calvinists, You attack the person, instead of actually trying to sit for a minute and trying to see there way.

I am not coming from Mans perspective, I am coming from Gods. I posted Gods word. I posted his own words in what his will is. And shared my view openly. Yet as a respons you belittle me, and lie about my motive..

Which is sad.. I was hoping to have a normal conversation But I guess with the exception of a few (PennEd and Grandpa are two I can think of, who disagree with me, but have never attacked me or said I believe thins I do not, and I love dearly as brothers in christ) it usually comes to this.

Good day.
Click to expand...

Yup .. they will indeed rage against you and since they cannot silence you, they will belittle and mock you and the true Gospel that Jesus did indeed die for everyone's sin and He pursues all people by His Holy Spirit.
When do people attack personally? When they know they have weak argument and the truth is against them.

If you question their doctrine you actually questioning God how neat and tidy is that?

This is why for those out there in the world who follow this system, it is very difficult to have any type of discussion, when you have a mind that is conditioned to think this way most efforts are futile.
It is doctrinal/mind legalism, soon as one goes down this path "the mind" cannot tolerate opposing views.
 
  • Like
Reactions: eternally-gratefull
UnderGrace said:
Yup .. they will indeed rage against you and since they cannot silence you, they will belittle and mock you and the true Gospel that Jesus did indeed die for everyone's sin and He pursues all people by His Holy Spirit.
When do people attack personally? When they know they have weak argument and the truth is against them.

If you question their doctrine you actually questioning God how neat and tidy is that?

This is why for those out there in the world who follow this system, it is very difficult to have any type of discussion, when you have a mind that is conditioned to think this way most efforts are futile.
It is doctrinal/mind legalism, soon as one goes down this path "the mind" cannot tolerate opposing views.
Click to expand...
I have to admit, it is not just this group of people. I have quite a few on ignore who are not calvinist in their thinking, but have the same attitude. In fact I used to (I saw it in the church I grew up and thought it was normal way we should react to people who did not think as we did) which took me awhile to get out of. I am sure I still fall back to that at time. Which is sad.

As I said, I enjoy havng conversations with a few people, not all of them are this way. But for the most part. It is sad..
 
eternally-gratefull said:
I have to admit, it is not just this group of people. I have quite a few on ignore who are not calvinist in their thinking, but have the same attitude. In fact I used to (I saw it in the church I grew up and thought it was normal way we should react to people who did not think as we did) which took me awhile to get out of. I am sure I still fall back to that at time. Which is sad.

As I said, I enjoy havng conversations with a few people, not all of them are this way. But for the most part. It is sad..
Click to expand...
I enjoy discussing issues on this board. I keep in mind what the early elders did and said. They created the creeds as a definition of what a Christian must believe. Then outside of that everything is to agree to disagree. Calvinism vs Arminianism is an example of those differences. There are a ton of other differences so we should discuss those differences respectfully keeping in mind that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Laish
eternally-gratefull said:
I have to admit, it is not just this group of people. I have quite a few on ignore who are not calvinist in their thinking, but have the same attitude. In fact I used to (I saw it in the church I grew up and thought it was normal way we should react to people who did not think as we did) which took me awhile to get out of. I am sure I still fall back to that at time. Which is sad.

As I said, I enjoy havng conversations with a few people, not all of them are this way. But for the most part. It is sad..
Click to expand...
I am mostly Calvinist but know the Arminians also have their opposite beliefs based on scripture. I was an elder and deacon in 3 Reformed viewpoint churches. Moved twice. 2 RCA Churches and 1 Presbyterian Church. This is an area we are forced to agree to disagree. We need to keep in mind both viewpoints are very Biblical and we are all brothers and sisters in Christ!!!
 
7seasrekeyed said:
how do Calvinists 'see' foreknowing? what does that mean exactly? how did God 'know' those not yet born?

you say He foreknew because He elected 'them' how does that work?

sincerely asking but I am thinking of something about it
Click to expand...
Psalms 53:2-3 - By God's foreknowledge he saw that no person would seek after him and that they were all filthy. There were not any that did good, no, not one. Therefore (Eph 1:4) God choose an elect (a determined amount) people before the foundation of the world. Because of the filthy condition of those he elected, he had Jesus to clean them up by being a sacrifice for their sins on the cross. Every one that Christ died for (the elect) was given to him by his Father and he said that he would not lose any of them but raise them up at the last day. (John 6:39). After Jesus died for them God looks upon them as holy and without blame (Eph 1:4). As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us. (Psalms 103:12). John 10:14 - I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep (the elect) and am known of mine. John 10:3-5 - To him the porter openeth; and the sheep (elect) hear his voice, and he calleth his own sheep (elect) by name, and he leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him; for they know his voice . And a stranger they will not follow, but will flee from him, for they know not the voice (doctrine) of strangers.
 
Endoscopy said:
I am mostly Calvinist but know the Arminians also have their opposite beliefs based on scripture. I was an elder and deacon in 3 Reformed viewpoint churches. Moved twice. 2 RCA Churches and 1 Presbyterian Church. This is an area we are forced to agree to disagree. We need to keep in mind both viewpoints are very Biblical and we are all brothers and sisters in Christ!!!
Click to expand...
What is your explanation on John 10:1-5?
 
GraceAndTruth said:
My doctrine IS: The Trinity, TULIP, Solas, and Amill

What is it that you want me to know?
Click to expand...
The article you posted seemed to contradict TULIP. Each point was partially torn apart. That confused my understanding of where you stood. I just wanted clarity.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back