Calvinism Critiqued

[preacher4truth]

eternally-gratefull, <sic> says:
God chose you. Not some one else. Even though you BOTH deserve hell. That makes you special. Whether you believe it or not.

He came with Love to Israel. Even stated it was his will that his love for them would be like a mother hen who gathers her chick, But they were not willing

More of the Romans 9:20 man on display, declaring God to be unjust, ridiculing election, mocking the elect as "special" in order to ridicule both God and those he has chosen.

EG won't bat an eye while doing it and others like him who see it will join in blindly and make the same chant along with him. Mocking God's Ordo Salutis, maligning his Gospel, rewriting his Gospel, truncating his Gospel, decrying his plan, placing man at the control center via choosing himself into heaven, calling God unfair, mitigating and domesticating Almighty God.

And of course taking Matthew 23:37 out of context, misapplying it, making it a universal call to all men everywhere at all times. The text isn't about eternal salvation, or "free will decisional choose your way into heaven gospel" which EG preaches. Nothing more than a customized rip Scripture out of context "gospel" while mocking God's ways and mocking his people he has chosen. That is not a true preacher or teacher of the one true Gospel, Jude 1:3, it's a huckster and peddler, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 4:2.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

You shjould worry about what God thinks of your pride and arrogance. Not what anyone else thinks.

Either way, Have a nice life.

AHHHH, dear EternallyGrateful,.......my own personal Jiminy Cricket.

 

[Endoscopy]

Yes lets look at it

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

First, what Is Gods will?

That all who SEE and BELIEVE will have ETERNAL LIFE, be MADE ALIVE, Given Gods PROMISE he woudl RAISE ThEM, and assurance they will NEVER DIE

We see this in this passage, You did not go far enough.

You forgot vs 13 - 14

After hearing the word (seeing) you believed (choice) and after this you were saved (born again) and as a pledge, God gives you the Holy Spirit as a seal.

In this way, All of eph 1 was fullfilled.. This is WHY God chose us.. and this is why we recieve ALL that God has given to us.

There is a difference between him choosing us and the foreknowledge of who would choose him. This is the crux of the difference of opinion between Calvinism and Arminianism. It to me is something we must just agree to disagree about since it falls outside of the creeds. For those claiming Calvinism is not Biblical you must deny the Biblical defense of it in the Canons of Dort.

Canons of Dort, the Biblical Defense of Calvinism.
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My friend, seeing you are on attack mode, it is time for me to put you on my ignore list. So long my friend. I tried to be civil, but alas...

You tried to be civil?

Man you need to relook at your words.. You can join many of your brothers in my prayer bin yourself. You people need to look at Grandpa and Penn Ed and see how to have civil conversations without attacking people..

And you need to search yourself and see what your issue is with people

 

[eternally-gratefull]

AHHHH, dear EternallyGrateful,.......my own personal Jiminy Cricket.

Yeah, You can join your brothers.

Can someone explain to me why it seams people of certain groups can be this way> What makes it worse is their own brothers do not call them out. It makes your church and your following look bad and leaves a bad tast in peoples mouth..

 

[Endoscopy]

Well, you were quite patient with "free willy choose yourself into heaven" guy. He won't listen to Scripture bro.

Something is being left out in this thread that the early elders saw. There was many differences of opinion about the meaning of the scripture. Therefore they created the creeds as doctrinal statements of what a Christian must believe and stated everything outside of them was to agree to disagree. Calvinism vs Arminianism is an example of this. Both views are very Biblical. Therefore please use language in this discussion that keeps in mind you are disagreeing with fellow Christians over these issues where both sides are Biblical. Here is the Biblical Defense of Calvinism. The Canons of Dort. Arminians have their own equally Biblical version as well.

Canons of Dort, the Biblical Defense of Calvinism.
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I'm thinking that the main difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is: can you choose and UNCHOOSE your salvation. (based on having a free will) So free will vs. God's sovereignty has always been the issue that effects all other issues of doctrine.

If one is free to choose salvation, then why not be free to unchoose it? Otherwise, what happened to all that free will?
The free willies will say, noone would choose to be unsaved.....Yet there ARE those seeds that fall on the rocky soil, so that counterpoint is not valid.

Most mainline churches are not strictly "arminian" , they are mostly 2 to 3 point TULIP. Moses Amyrald (a 4 pointer ?) came up with the theory that one could hold to 2 or 3 truths and deny the rest, putting forth the idea of free will in salvation without an exit. Most mainlines would agree on the T L and P. The U AND I do not fit their free will theory.

 

[Endoscopy]

Calvin followed the bible, along with all of the reformers or "protestants" in that time. The Roman Catholic religion gave us the name "protetant" because we protested their apostasy/hersies.

Hate Calvin? Do you also hate Wycliffe, Tinsdale, Zwengli, Luther, and Augustine? How about Jonathan Edwards or George Whitefield?
Maybe you'd like to consign to hell the author of Amazing Grace and the author of Pilgrim's Progress, along with Spurgeon, Boettner, and John Gill!! Or back further to Irenaeus, Ignatius, Tertullian Polycarp and Clement. "calvinists" or "doctrineof grace" believers every one of them. The list is enormous, just about every person in Christian history that had a voice.

Yes there were also the apostates like Montanus and Arminius, the heretics like Origen and Joseph Smith, they have been with us in every age since the snake in the garden.

Know who the enemy really is. Do you see yourself as the master of your ship? OR, do you see God's magnificent characteristics in His Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Omniscience and Immutablity? Do you see unsaved people as just sick and weren't you so clever to cure yourself and so smart to "accept Christ" and walk that aisle. OR do you see yourself as God sees you, a dead stinking corpse that needs to be made alive by God's grace??

I read about the life of the author of Amazing Grace. He was a captain of a slaver ship. He went to Africa and took on the cargo of slaves from those who captured fellow blacks and sold them. At times when confronted with a bad storm he threw overboard some of the slaves to save the ship. This haunted him after coming to Christ. This puts a better understanding of the phrase "a wretch like me" in the hymn.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Yeah, You can join your brothers.

Can someone explain to me why it seams people of certain groups can be this way> What makes it worse is their own brothers do not call them out. It makes your church and your following look bad and leaves a bad tast in peoples mouth..

Take a chill pill, I am not mad at you nor do I particularly care that you seem to want to be my conscience. But I am amused that you just can't seem to let me alone. That only enourages me. LOL It has become a duel between two "last word freaks"!!

Just wondering, what is a tast?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I read about the life of the author of Amazing Grace. He was a captain of a slaver ship. He went to Africa and took on the cargo of slaves from those who captured fellow blacks and sold them. At times when confronted with a bad storm he threw overboard some of the slaves to save the ship. This haunted him after coming to Christ. This puts a better understanding of the phrase "a wretch like me" in the hymn.

I have a DVD of his life and it was quite a life, held captive and in slavery himself on an island, he "married" a native woman and had children by her, but left her and those children when he had the opportunity. Most certainly a wretched man who finally understood his depravity. He devoted himself to God and was instumental in encouraging Wilberforce to get slavery outlawed in England.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

You tried to be civil?

Man you need to relook at your words.. You can join many of your brothers in my prayer bin yourself. You people need to look at Grandpa and Penn Ed and see how to have civil conversations without attacking people..

And you need to search yourself and see what your issue is with people

You need to be nicer or I'll be the only friend you have left in forums. Now that thought might keep you awake at night. LOL

 

[Endoscopy]

I'm thinking that the main difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is: can you choose and UNCHOOSE your salvation. (based on having a free will) So free will vs. God's sovereignty has always been the issue that effects all other issues of doctrine.

If one is free to choose salvation, then why not be free to unchoose it? Otherwise, what happened to all that free will?
The free willies will say, noone would choose to be unsaved.....Yet there ARE those seeds that fall on the rocky soil, so that counterpoint is not valid.

Most mainline churches are not strictly "arminian" , they are mostly 2 to 3 point TULIP. Moses Amyrald (a 4 pointer ?) came up with the theory that one could hold to 2 or 3 truths and deny the rest, putting forth the idea of free will in salvation without an exit. Most mainlines would agree on the T L and P. The U AND I do not fit their free will theory.

The way the 5 points came about was Arminius wrote his 5 main points and Calvin responded with his 5 points directly opposing the ones Arminius wrote. Here is the Biblical Defense of both Calvinism and Arminianism. There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each.

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

 

[p_rehbein]

Gotta disagree with some of this.

We aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because are sinners. There is a distinction there. We were dead because we are sinners. And as such we sin. The fact that we were dead, because we were sinners remains. And therefore being dead, we CANNOT in our physical flesh choose to born ourself.

Scripture says we are not even capable of understanding the Gospel in our flesh.

I mean, you say you are spiritually dead and cannot make yourself alive, and then in the very next breath say that you can, in your flesh, choose to make yourself alive by entering the Narrow Gate.

This might be the final barrier of ourself we have to yield to Jesus. It's a tough one brother. But if we could choose Him, without God quickening us, then we can also choose to not sin BEFORE we are born again. And we know that can't happen.[/QUOTE]

What about Romans 2:14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

In my life walk, I have known many unsaved people who, when given a choice, have chosen to do the right and not the wrong thing.

just saying

 

[Hevosmies]

What about Romans 2:14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

In my life walk, I have known many unsaved people who, when given a choice, have chosen to do the right and not the wrong thing.

just saying

Gentiles are capable of doing appeareantly moral good actions like feeding the poor, helping the needy. But we much remember that everything thats not done in faith is also sin.

Even the plowing of the wicked is sin.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

The way the 5 points came about was Arminius wrote his 5 main points and Calvin responded with his 5 points directly opposing the ones Arminius wrote. Here is the Biblical Defense of both Calvinism and Arminianism. There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each.

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

I've posted this before but here goes:

Calvin did not write the doctrines of grace, Theodore Beza wrote them in rebuttal to Jacob Arminus' Remonstrances

 

[John146]

Here is God disputing what you post. Verse 10.

God has used eclipses to condemn countries. Every time an eclipse has passed from one side to another that country diminished greatly. Think about the fact that as God stated knowing the end from the begining that at creation he set the moon in a particular orbit to have those eclipses happen at the correct time. This country was in the colonial and early states a mostly Christian country. It now only has a splinter of Christians left. In 2024 another eclipse crossing from northeast to southwest crossing 7 cities named Salem will occur. Consider God's foreknowledge to have that eclipse do that. It places 2 eclipses making an X on the USA. Double condemnation!!

Isaiah 46 NIV
3 “Listen to me, you descendants of Jacob,
all the remnant of the people of Israel,
you whom I have upheld since your birth,
and have carried since you were born.
4 Even to your old age and gray hairs
I am he, I am he who will sustain you.
I have made you and I will carry you;
I will sustain you and I will rescue you.
5 “With whom will you compare me or count me equal?
To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?
6 Some pour out gold from their bags
and weigh out silver on the scales;
they hire a goldsmith to make it into a god,
and they bow down and worship it.
7 They lift it to their shoulders and carry it;
they set it up in its place, and there it stands.
From that spot it cannot move.
Even though someone cries out to it, it cannot answer;
it cannot save them from their troubles.
8 “Remember this, keep it in mind,
take it to heart, you rebels.
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’

Agree, God knows the end from the beginning. Why do you alter this to mean that God knows who will be saved from the beginning and all of man's future decisions upon hearing His word? This is clearly speaking of that God knew from the beginning, that He will end up ruling and reigning forever and forever. God has made that known unto us through His word. We read how things are going to turn out at the end of Revelation. That purpose will stand. There's nothing man or Satan can do about it.

 

[Deade]

Agree, God knows the end from the beginning. Why do you alter this to mean that God knows who will be saved from the beginning and all of man's future decisions upon hearing His word? This is clearly speaking of that God knew from the beginning, that He will end up ruling and reigning forever and forever. God has made that known unto us through His word. We read how things are going to turn out at the end of Revelation. That purpose will stand. There's nothing man or Satan can do about it.

And yet our traditional Christian gospel message is that God is love, and He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that the world might have life everlasting (John 3:16). Yet this same God has made this way to salvation very narrow and hard to follow. In fact, He forecasts that most people won't be saved and will be deceived by the destroyer of souls.

God goes on to state that He will choose very few to follow his path. He even states that many are called but few are chosen (Matt. 22:14), and if you can't quite cut the mustard or pull the grade you will be forever tortured in flames. Why does this God of love not make the way to serve Him obvious and easy to find? Surprise: God is pretty much hands off the world system and letting it have free rein for the time being. The gospel message is not about Jesus and His sacrifice for our sins; that is the gospel about Jesus. No, the gospel Jesus brought is about the Kingdom of God.

God has laid out all His plans to inform the world what He did and will yet do. This is put forth in God's word. And we come full circle to where God is seemingly losing the war for men's souls. Nope. God is not doing that. God is letting mankind and the fallen angels reap the consequences of deciding good and evil for themselves. It will all come to a head when God will intervene to save us from ourselves. Then He will give us 1000 years of doing it His way. By the end we will be astounded at the difference. Then He will make a way for the rest of mankind to achieve life everlasting.

 

[p_rehbein]

. It will all come to a head when God will intervene to save us from ourselves. Then He will give us 1000 years of doing it His way. By the end we will be astounded at the difference. Then He will make a way for the rest of mankind to achieve life everlasting.


um...............sorry...........I have to disagree with that........sorry

 

[Endoscopy]

I've posted this before but here goes:

Calvin did not write the doctrines of grace, Theodore Beza wrote them in rebuttal to Jacob Arminus' Remonstrances

Just looked up Theodore Beza and it mentioned he was a disciple of Calvin but among all of his writings it never mentions the 5 points of Calvinism. So where did you find that reference please.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

No my friend. His election was not based upon the actions of people. Whom He foreknew, He predestined. No what He foreknew. God foreknew people, not their actions. We see in Acts 10:34 and Romans 2:11 that God does not show favoritism. Yet, according to your view, God elected those He foreknew would receive His grace. That has Him playing favorites, a clear contradiction of Acts 10:34 and Romans 2:11.

Also, God did foreknew those who would receive His grace, because foreknew in the Greek is a verb, and you are making it out to be a noun. God foreknew those He would save because He actually foreknew them, elected them.

how do Calvinists 'see' foreknowing? what does that mean exactly? how did God 'know' those not yet born?

you say He foreknew because He elected 'them' how does that work?

sincerely asking but I am thinking of something about it