Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines
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Well, it makes no sence to discuss about eschatolic questions, my bible teacher once said. I believe in pretrib. Which final is right the Lord will reveal to its time. What i never heared before is that there is a second chance during the 7 years.
What I not understand is, what you are seeing as dangeres to believe pretrib?
Does it change anything in my life as christian? Does it bring me away from the faith to the Lord? And when then how?
What I not understand is, what you are seeing as dangeres to believe pretrib?
Does it change anything in my life as christian? Does it bring me away from the faith to the Lord? And when then how?
I studied all the major prophetic positions. Dispensational premill, historic premill, postmill, amill, full-preterism and partial preterism. The only one that fit Scripture is amillennialism.
Historic premill has the same problem as disp premill. They read Revelation 20, misunderstand it in my opinion, and then they go back and read Old Testament prophecies and say that's the millennium being talked about there. It's actually the new earth being talked about. Little child shall lead them, lion shall eat straw, etc, etc. Those are describing the new earth (and heavens).
It is only silly to those who are silly enough to believe propaganda instead of Bible truth.
There is no question that there is a ton of propaganda, plain nonsense, and misrepresentation of Scripture posted and published by those who refuse to believe in a Pretribulation Rapture.
One could post dozens of Scriptures to establish the truth about this matter, but they would not be believed and received with thanksgiving.
There is no question that there is a ton of propaganda, plain nonsense, and misrepresentation of Scripture posted and published by those who refuse to believe in a Pretribulation Rapture.
One could post dozens of Scriptures to establish the truth about this matter, but they would not be believed and received with thanksgiving.
I dont think any view is free from problems, meaning they got some 'splaining to do
Amil no exception, how do you explain the saints RULING over the nations, if there are no nations? How do you explain satan being bound currently, first resurrection being spiritual and second literal while the word literally means to stand up again to be resurrected, Jesus ruling in Jerusalem OVER the nations with a rod of iron, the millennium not being a literal 1000 altho there is no reason in the text to spiritualizing it, Isaiah 2 when nations will not know war, hasnt happened yet, cant be new earth and heaven DUE to the other verses in context. etc. etc.
These are just off the top of my head, there is tons of problems with amil. Lets not pretend otherwise.
Amil no exception, how do you explain the saints RULING over the nations, if there are no nations? How do you explain satan being bound currently, first resurrection being spiritual and second literal while the word literally means to stand up again to be resurrected, Jesus ruling in Jerusalem OVER the nations with a rod of iron, the millennium not being a literal 1000 altho there is no reason in the text to spiritualizing it, Isaiah 2 when nations will not know war, hasnt happened yet, cant be new earth and heaven DUE to the other verses in context. etc. etc.
These are just off the top of my head, there is tons of problems with amil. Lets not pretend otherwise.
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I agree with you that all eschatological positions have some "splaining to do". They all seem to have some issues.
What I mean when I say amill fits Scripture best is that I don't see its "problem passages" as refuting it. It's unclear what those few "problem passages" are actually saying. Everything else in Scripture fits amill very nicely.
With premill, postmill or preterist views I see many Scriptures that outright refute any possibility of them being true.
The amill believes saints are ruling right now in heaven with Christ.
Rev 3: 21, "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." Notice Jesus talks about His sitting on the throne of His Father in the present tense. Sitting on a throne means you are ruling and reigning.
John 12: 31, "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out." Amill's believe that is the binding of Satan and he was cast out/into the abyss. This is why he said he saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Jesus won the victory on the cross and the gospel can now go to the Gentiles. The great commission is that binding. He can't keep them in darkness anymore. That word for deceiving the "nations" means gentiles in the Greek. That's the only thing he is bound from doing. Gentiles can now be saved. Gentiles in the Old Testament had no access to God generally speaking. Only Israel had the light.
The word ezesan does refer to physical resurrection in other Scriptures. The question is does it mean physical resurrection in Rev 20? The amill believes it is a spiritual resurrection where they live on and rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Thrones are mentioned. No reign on earth or from Jerusalem is ever mentioned in Rev 20.
I'm guessing you are referring to Rev 19: 15 which says, "Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."
Notice the context of "ruling" them. Jesus treads "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God". This is the second coming. It also says a "sharp sword goes out of His mouth that He strikes the nations with".
What happens when Jesus returns? Go down 6 more verses to Rev 19: 21, "And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse." There is your "ruling with a rod of iron" and also the "dashing in pieces" of Psalm 2. It happens at His return. Not in a millennium.
Except there is plenty of reason. Psalm 50: 10, "For every beast of the forest is Mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills." God doesn't own the cattle on the 1,001st hill?
Psalm 90: 4, "For a thousand years in Your sight are like yesterday when it is past, and like a watch in the night. Can't be both 24 hours and 3 hours. Can only be symbolic.
I can give you a ton of Scripture examples that show 1,000 used as a number for "fullness" and not literal. But premills want to take 1,000 literally in the most symbolic book in the Bible. Seems crazy to me.
As a premill you probably won't accept these interpretations and that's fine but I can give verses that prove that a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is impossible.
What I mean when I say amill fits Scripture best is that I don't see its "problem passages" as refuting it. It's unclear what those few "problem passages" are actually saying. Everything else in Scripture fits amill very nicely.
With premill, postmill or preterist views I see many Scriptures that outright refute any possibility of them being true.
The amill believes saints are ruling right now in heaven with Christ.
Rev 3: 21, "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." Notice Jesus talks about His sitting on the throne of His Father in the present tense. Sitting on a throne means you are ruling and reigning.
John 12: 31, "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out." Amill's believe that is the binding of Satan and he was cast out/into the abyss. This is why he said he saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Jesus won the victory on the cross and the gospel can now go to the Gentiles. The great commission is that binding. He can't keep them in darkness anymore. That word for deceiving the "nations" means gentiles in the Greek. That's the only thing he is bound from doing. Gentiles can now be saved. Gentiles in the Old Testament had no access to God generally speaking. Only Israel had the light.
The word ezesan does refer to physical resurrection in other Scriptures. The question is does it mean physical resurrection in Rev 20? The amill believes it is a spiritual resurrection where they live on and rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Thrones are mentioned. No reign on earth or from Jerusalem is ever mentioned in Rev 20.
I'm guessing you are referring to Rev 19: 15 which says, "Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."
Notice the context of "ruling" them. Jesus treads "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God". This is the second coming. It also says a "sharp sword goes out of His mouth that He strikes the nations with".
What happens when Jesus returns? Go down 6 more verses to Rev 19: 21, "And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse." There is your "ruling with a rod of iron" and also the "dashing in pieces" of Psalm 2. It happens at His return. Not in a millennium.
Except there is plenty of reason. Psalm 50: 10, "For every beast of the forest is Mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills." God doesn't own the cattle on the 1,001st hill?
Psalm 90: 4, "For a thousand years in Your sight are like yesterday when it is past, and like a watch in the night. Can't be both 24 hours and 3 hours. Can only be symbolic.
I can give you a ton of Scripture examples that show 1,000 used as a number for "fullness" and not literal. But premills want to take 1,000 literally in the most symbolic book in the Bible. Seems crazy to me.
As a premill you probably won't accept these interpretations and that's fine but I can give verses that prove that a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth is impossible.
Notice where the ruler of this world is cast out. NOT to the abyss. NOT bound so he wont deceive, the OPPOSITE is true: Earlier on in revelation:
Rev 12:9-12
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
So he is cast out of heaven there yes, but woe to the earth...... Earlier on in revelation again:
Rev 13:13-14
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
There again DECEIVING the nations. NOT BOUND.
Rev 12:9-12
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
So he is cast out of heaven there yes, but woe to the earth...... Earlier on in revelation again:
Rev 13:13-14
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
There again DECEIVING the nations. NOT BOUND.
We can agree to disagree. I will continue having the right one and you can continue believing the wrong one lol.
I already said before Revelation is symbolic language. He still roams around like a roaring lion as Peter says. But he is bound in one way: from "deceiving the nations". The gospel has gone out to the gentiles (Satan's binding).
This is the first coming. You actually think Satan accuses us day and night before God now? After Jesus paid for our sins?
Romans 8: 1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus..." How can he accuse us?
Romans 8: 33-34, "Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us."
Satan can't accuse any Christian after the cross. He was rendered powerless at the cross. He used to accuse Job and others in the Old Testament but that was before the cross.
And we win the victory by our faith in Him. The Lord our Righteousness.
Once again, reading a symbolic book too literally. He is bound from one thing in Rev 20: 1-3. He can't prevent the spread of the gospel and the kingdom of God. He can still prowl around and devour people.
I already said before Revelation is symbolic language. He still roams around like a roaring lion as Peter says. But he is bound in one way: from "deceiving the nations". The gospel has gone out to the gentiles (Satan's binding).
This is the first coming. You actually think Satan accuses us day and night before God now? After Jesus paid for our sins?
Romans 8: 1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus..." How can he accuse us?
Romans 8: 33-34, "Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us."
Satan can't accuse any Christian after the cross. He was rendered powerless at the cross. He used to accuse Job and others in the Old Testament but that was before the cross.
And we win the victory by our faith in Him. The Lord our Righteousness.
Once again, reading a symbolic book too literally. He is bound from one thing in Rev 20: 1-3. He can't prevent the spread of the gospel and the kingdom of God. He can still prowl around and devour people.
How do you answer Job 14: 12 as a premill?
Job 14: 12, "So man lies down and does not rise until the heavens are no more. They will not awake nor be roused from their sleep.
One verse destroys premillennialism. You guys have people resurrected when their is still a heavens.
The seventh trumpet also refutes a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. I can get into that if I need too...
Job 14: 12, "So man lies down and does not rise until the heavens are no more. They will not awake nor be roused from their sleep.
One verse destroys premillennialism. You guys have people resurrected when their is still a heavens.
The seventh trumpet also refutes a 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. I can get into that if I need too...
Some suggest that the word "inhabitants" is not in the text, here, thus just reading "woe to the earth and to the sea".
https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/12-12.htm - Rev12:12
https://biblehub.com/revelation/12-12.htm - see the Rev12:12 various versions
Closest I could find elsewhere was this:
Zephaniah 2:5 -
"Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Cherethites! the word of the Lord is against you; O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant."
But then again, maybe it is referring to "chicken of the sea"
https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/12-12.htm - Rev12:12
https://biblehub.com/revelation/12-12.htm - see the Rev12:12 various versions
Closest I could find elsewhere was this:
Zephaniah 2:5 -
"Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Cherethites! the word of the Lord is against you; O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant."
But then again, maybe it is referring to "chicken of the sea"