Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

[TheDivineWatermark]

I think that was AD70 but if I saw compelling that proved otherwise my stance could changed.

Well, for one, the wording in Hebrews 7:22 is very important. Again:

"By so much also, Jesus has become [perfect tense] the surety of a better covenant." [consider what a "SURETY" means]

Then consider what Romans 11:27 states (in the context of verses 25-28):

"And this is the covenant from Me to them, when I shall take away their [Israel's] sins" and the next verse states: "For as regards the gospel, they are enemies on account of you; but as regards election, beloved on account of the patriarchs." [where it says, "when I shall take away their sins" (in relation to what the following verse states), this is saying that it hasn't taken place yet. [and here is where vv.24-25,28 of Hebrews 7 becomes imperative to grasp, in relation to this--"EVER LIVETH TO"]

Then take a look at all the places where it talks about "shake heaven AND earth" and (keeping in mind the SEQUENCE-issues you and I went over yesterday ), see if you can tell what those contexts are showing (whether it refers to "far-future" [from the perspective of when it was written, of course] or, say, surrounding the events of 70ad as you suggest it may have been).

Good discussion. Enjoying it, thanks!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

delirious:

TDW: I may have been thinking of Ezekiel 36:33 (not sure, will keep thinking... ), but just wanted to mention that verse here:
"33 Thus saith the Lord God; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also..."

I would ask you this question: Can the Jews "atone for iniquity" themselves? It sounds like you believe that which is scary.

Why would you ask that, when my post JUST SHOWED and mentioned the 18x that this text says "I WILL" ?

[...and read this along with Romans 11:25-28, as in the above post, as well as Romans 11:15 parallel to Daniel 12:1-4 (at a specific future time-slot) and Isaiah 26:16-21 and Hosea 5:15-6:3 ("TILL") and Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 (none of which is referring to "formerly-dead people") and other such parallels...]

 

[mobius8curve]

So you think that disagreeing with a post-tribber or a mid-termer is going to damn me to hell? I thought we were to refrain from doubtful disputations. Oh, and what was that about every man being fully persuaded in his own mind?

"Every man" has nothing to do with those who reach adulthood natuarally but it has everything to do with maturity in the Word:

Hebrews 5:11-14 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard of interpretation, seeing ye are become dull of hearing. (12) For when by reason of the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need again that some one teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of solid food. (13) For every one that partaketh of milk is without experience of the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. (14) But solid food is for fullgrown men, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.

We are not to go beyond what is written: or as the KJV translates we are not to elevate our thinking above what the Word says:

ASV ~ 1 Corinthians 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.

KJV ~ 1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

That makes this passage so clear a 5th grader can discern its intent:

Revelation 22:18-19 I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: (19) and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

 

[Hevosmies]

"Every man" has nothing to do with those who reach adulthood natuarally but it has everything to do with maturity in the Word:

Hebrews 5:11-14 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard of interpretation, seeing ye are become dull of hearing. (12) For when by reason of the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need again that some one teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of solid food. (13) For every one that partaketh of milk is without experience of the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. (14) But solid food is for fullgrown men, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.

We are not to go beyond what is written: or as the KJV translates we are not to elevate our thinking above what the Word says:

ASV ~ 1 Corinthians 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us ye might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.

KJV ~ 1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

That makes this passage so clear a 5th grader can discern its intent:

Revelation 22:18-19 I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: (19) and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

ANd where in the book of revelation do you see the rapture?

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

That makes this passage so clear a 5th grader can discern its intent:

So, what is sinful about agreeing to disagree with someone that holds to a different eschatological view? Are there not enough arguments on this site already to suit your taste?

Hold up, are you one of those guys they talk about here that believes if someone doesn't believe in the rapture they are not saved?

 

[delirious]

@delirious are you pentecostal? I can tell you are arminian for sure, im just wondering, because most pentecostals I know are pre-trib premill, thats where I attend! Yet you are amil ?

I am not pentecostal. I am non-denominational. The church I go to never even touches eschatology. I jokingly call myself "Triple A" for Arminian (used loosely for free-will), Amillennial, Annihilationist.

Almost all the churches in North America teach premillennialism and I find that few people have actually studied the other positions. They may have heard of amill or postmill or preterism but usually don't know much about them.

I like to give people an amillennial perspective to consider since most Christians in North America have only heard dispensational teaching.

 

[delirious]

Why would you ask that, when my post JUST SHOWED and mentioned the 18x that this text says "I WILL" ?

How is God going to cleanse the Jews from their iniquities apart from the cross? You are saying the "atoning for iniquity" happens in a future 70th week when Jews are "reconciled" and accept their Messiah. That is a category error.

You are equating the "reconciliation" of Jews in the future with the "atoning for iniquity". No way. That is completely contrary to the gospel. Only Jesus atones on the cross. Anything else would be teaching a works righteousness.

You are saying that Jews going through exile for 2,000 years and a final 7-year tribulation have "atoned for their sins" and now God will reveal Jesus to them. Might as well be a Catholic and believe in purgatory.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

How is God going to cleanse the Jews from their iniquities apart from the cross? You are saying the "atoning for iniquity" happens in a future 70th week when Jews are "reconciled" and accept their Messiah. That is a category error.

You are equating the "reconciliation" of Jews in the future with the "atoning for iniquity". No way. That is completely contrary to the gospel. Only Jesus atones on the cross. Anything else would be teaching a works righteousness.

You are saying that Jews going through exile for 2,000 years and a final 7-year tribulation have "atoned for their sins" and now God will reveal Jesus to them. Might as well be a Catholic and believe in purgatory.

Jesus died for all human beings on the planet living, dead (though it is too late for them if they have not received Him) and yet unborn. Jews are included in that number, however, how many Jews are you aware of that are willing to accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah? Gentile Christians believe He is the Messiah, just not theirs . . . but He is their Saviour.

Jewish synagogues when ever they speak of Jesus at all, he is merely the illegitimate offspring of a Roman soldier and a harlot named Mary.

 

[KJV1611]

Well, for one, the wording in Hebrews 7:22 is very important. Again:

"By so much also, Jesus has become [perfect tense] the surety of a better covenant." [consider what a "SURETY" means]

First, sorry I missed this or I would’ve responded sooner. 😊

Compare the two verses below.

Act 12:11 (KJV) And when Peter was come to himself, he said, Now I know of a surety, that the Lord hath sent his angel, and hath delivered me out of the hand of Herod, and from all the expectation of the people of the Jews.

Surety... Peter knew for sure. Now compare to Hebrews.

Heb 7:22 (KJV) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Jesus coming made the better testament sure.

 

[KJV1611]

Then consider what Romans 11:27 states (in the context of verses 25-28):

"And this is the covenant from Me to them, when I shall take away their [Israel's] sins" and the next verse states: "For as regards the gospel, they are enemies on account of you; but as regards election, beloved on account of the patriarchs." [where it says, "when I shall take away their sins" (in relation to what the following verse states), this is saying that it hasn't taken place yet. [and here is where vv.24-25,28 of Hebrews 7 becomes imperative to grasp, in relation to this--"EVER LIVETH TO"]

In my opinion, and I think I’m right on this, the part I highlighted in red does not tie into “the covenant from me to them”. See below.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

For this (There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob) is my covenant (new covenant) unto them, when I wii take away their sins.

Let me ask this, aren’t the Jews under the new covenant since Christ came? Doesn’t that mean their sins are taken away?

Also I’m enjoying conversation also 😊

 

[cv5]

In my opinion, and I think I’m right on this, the part I highlighted in red does not tie into “the covenant from me to them”. See below.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

For this (There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob) is my covenant (new covenant) unto them, when I wii take away their sins.

Let me ask this, aren’t the Jews under the new covenant since Christ came? Doesn’t that mean their sins are taken away?

Also I’m enjoying conversation also 😊

Only the chosen, only the remnant, only the faithful. It always works the same way.

 

[KJV1611]

Only the chosen, only the remnant, only the faithful. It always works the same way.

Exactly, one group of Jews are the enemies of the gospel and the other group, the elect Jews are beloved of the father.

 

[cv5]

Exactly, one group of Jews are the enemies of the gospel and the other group, the elect Jews are beloved of the father.

The enemies of the gospel reject His Son....simple as that.

 

[Locutus]

Rom 11:26-27 is related to Jesus' return in the 1st century, the taking away of sin was not completed until his return - this is related to the day of atonement high priest ritual which was not completed until the high priest exited the holy place.

Hebrew has Jesus entering the holy place (Hen 9:12) but to fill the type/antitype he has to return. We have in Hebrews a statement regarding this:

Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Jesus himself stated this would happen when Jerusalem was "compassed with armies":

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[KJV1611]

Rom 11:26-27 is related to Jesus' return in the 1st century, the taking away of sin was not completed until his return - this is related to the day of atonement high priest ritual which was not completed until the high priest exited the holy place.

Hebrew has Jesus entering the holy place (Hen 9:12) but to fill the type/antitype he has to return. We have in Hebrews a statement regarding this:

Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Jesus himself stated this would happen when Jerusalem was "compassed with armies":

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

I just don’t see how you figure Jesus returned in AD70. 🤪

 

[cv5]

I just don’t see how you figure Jesus returned in AD70. 🤪

Impossible of course. Christs Second Coming will be seen and known worldwide is a staggering open show of power and Glory. There will be no doubt.

 

[KJV1611]

Impossible of course. Christs Second Coming will be seen and known worldwide is a staggering open show of power and Glory. There will be no doubt.

I agree he will return in the end but he did return once already when he came back from the dead.

 

[Locutus]

I just don’t see how you figure Jesus returned in AD70. 🤪

Most people don't 16 - but he said to the high priest and the rest of the council:

Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

The question is was Jesus wrong when He told them they would see him coming?

 

[KJV1611]

Most people don't 16 - but he said to the high priest and the rest of the council:

Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

The question is was Jesus wrong when He told them they would see him coming?

You’re pretty good at wading through things that are symbolic and things that are not and I respect your views but remember, the disciples did see him come in power and glory after his resurrection. I believe that’s what those verses are talking about but it’s in symbolic language. I don’t think he meant seeing him literally sitting on something.

 

[Locutus]

You’re pretty good at wading through things that are symbolic and things that are not and I respect your views but remember, the disciples did see him come in power and glory after his resurrection. I believe that’s what those verses are talking about but it’s in symbolic language. I don’t think he meant seeing him literally sitting on something.

I don't agree 16, he specifically stated that to the high priest and the council, the disciples were not there to hear him say that.

I don't read Acts 9:1 as related to that as the time Jesus stated the council would see Him coming was years after when Jerusalem was compassed with armies.

The two don't fit.