Not By Works

[Pisteuo]

For those who push salvation based on the merits of their obedience, I wonder just how much obedience they believe it takes to be saved? How much obedience do they believe they must accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to "help" Jesus save them?

Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

So how much " believing " does it take to receive salvation ? Where is that line where one is " believing " enough , or just had one doubt to many , and lost their belief ?

Get real , your understanding is as wrong as those who think obedience is what saving Faith is .

 

[posthuman]

Get real , your understanding is as wrong as those who think obedience is what saving Faith is .

i think this bit is unwarranted ↑

So how much " believing " does it take to receive salvation ? Where is that line where one is " believing " enough , or just had one doubt to many , and lost their belief ?

but i think this bit raises an interesting question ↑

which question itself raises a couple of questions i think are important

1. are we right to presume to measure either works that merit salvation or salvific faith at all?
2. is the abstract notion of measurement we're presuming the right way to think about this question at all?

in re: (2) to illustrate, is this an accurate picture of God's judgement:



is the idea that there is some kind of measurable threshold in either case the right picture? and if so is it something possible for an human to either measure for himself or to even describe?

 

[BillG]

So how much " believing " does it take to receive salvation ? Where is that line where one is " believing " enough , or just had one doubt to many , and lost their belief ?

Get real , your understanding is as wrong as those who think obedience is what saving Faith is .

And your stance/thoughts are?

 

[mailmandan]

So how much " believing " does it take to receive salvation ? Where is that line where one is " believing " enough , or just had one doubt to many , and lost their belief ?

Get real , your understanding is as wrong as those who think obedience is what saving Faith is .

Believing/trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is the line where one is believing enough or not believing. Either we truly believe 100% in Jesus Christ as our Savior or else we don’t. I’m being very real. Are you believing/trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation? I certainly am and have been for several years now.

 

[Pisteuo]

And your stance/thoughts are?

In short , the words believe , believer ,and believing are mistranslations from the Greek word pisteuo . The English language has no verb form of the noun Faith like the Greek does , so it wasn't correctly translated .

Faith is used as a noun 245 times ( pistis ) and 248 times asa verb ( pisteuo ) . Pisteuo is an act , based upon a belief , sustained by confidence . So believing is a "part" of pisteuo , but taken on its own is error , and changes the object of Faith from God Himself , to his word and promises . Pisteuo is a relationship with Christ , a real living person !


Pisteuo is a verb an action word . The specific act of pisteuo in relationship with God is , Vines : " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation of truth ."

Strongs : "pisteuo means NOT just to believe "

 

[posthuman]

In short , the words believe , believer ,and believing are mistranslations from the Greek word pisteuo . The English language has no verb form of the noun Faith like the Greek does , so it wasn't correctly translated .

Faith is used as a noun 245 times ( pistis ) and 248 times asa verb ( pisteuo ) . Pisteuo is an act , based upon a belief , sustained by confidence . So believing is a "part" of pisteuo , but taken on its own is error , and changes the object of Faith from God Himself , to his word and promises . Pisteuo is a relationship with Christ , a real living person !


Pisteuo is a verb an action word . The specific act of pisteuo in relationship with God is , Vines : " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation of truth ."

Strongs : "pisteuo means NOT just to believe "

would you agree this is a demonstration of pisteuo

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,​

that everyone who believes may have eternal life in Him.​

(John 3:24-15) ​

just as the brazen serpent ?

 

[mailmandan]

In short , the words believe , believer ,and believing are mistranslations from the Greek word pisteuo . The English language has no verb form of the noun Faith like the Greek does , so it wasn't correctly translated .

Faith is used as a noun 245 times ( pistis ) and 248 times asa verb ( pisteuo ) . Pisteuo is an act , based upon a belief , sustained by confidence . So believing is a "part" of pisteuo , but taken on its own is error , and changes the object of Faith from God Himself , to his word and promises . Pisteuo is a relationship with Christ , a real living person !

Pisteuo is a verb an action word . The specific act of pisteuo in relationship with God is , Vines : " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation of truth ."

Strongs : "pisteuo means NOT just to believe "

Pisteuo also includes to have faith in/trust in. So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have sufficiently surrendered to Christ “enough” and your life inspired by such surrender “measures up?” Now we are getting into salvation by works.

 

[Pisteuo]

Believing/trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is the line where one is believing enough or not believing. Either we truly believe 100% in Jesus Christ as our Savior or else we don’t. I’m being very real. Are you believing/trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation? I certainly am and have been for several years now.

So does that mean when Christ doubted on the cross , he fell short ? Doubting has very little to do with saving Faith .

Your object of Faith is God's Grace , instead of God Himself . God's Grace doesn't need any validation from us . Grace never changes whether we believe it or not .

 

[posthuman]

when Christ doubted on the cross

what do you mean, Christ doubted ??

He is without sin.
doubt = unbelief ((e.g. Matthew 14:31))
unbelief = sin ((e.g. John 16:9))

⇒ ⇐ ​

 

[mailmandan]

So does that mean when Christ doubted on the cross , he fell short? Doubting has very little to do with saving Faith .

Your object of Faith is God's Grace , instead of God Himself . God's Grace doesn't need any validation from us . Grace never changes whether we believe it or not .

We have been saved by grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8). The object of my faith is Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption. (Romans 3:24-28) It sounds to me like you are trying to “include” works “into” believe from your understanding of “pisteuo” and teach salvation by faith + works.

 

[Pisteuo]

would you agree this is a demonstration of pisteuo

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,​

that everyone who believes may have eternal life in Him.​

(John 3:24-15) ​

just as the brazen serpent ?

That word" believes " is pisteuo in the Greek . It doesn't matter what I think it means , what matters is what the Greek dictionarys tell us it means .

Vines : " pisteuo is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender . Producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation of truth ."

It's as simple as that !

So in Jn 3 , if I just take out the mistranslated word" believes ," and replace it with the correct definition from the Greek dictionary , it should read , : that everyone who personally surrenders their lives to Him and lives a life inspired by such surrender , may have eternal life in Him .

 

[Pisteuo]

what do you mean, Christ doubted ??

He is without sin.
doubt = unbelief ((e.g. Matthew 14:31))
unbelief = sin ((e.g. John 16:9))

⇒ ⇐ ​

Remember , Father why have you forsaken me ?

 

[posthuman]

Your object of Faith is God's Grace , instead of God Himself

how do i distinguish between faith in God who has the quality of everlasting lovingkindness and faith in that quality of God itself?

 

[posthuman]

Remember , Father why have you forsaken me ?

the Psalm He sang?

yeah. read the Psalm. what is it about? who is the one who thinks they are forsaken in the song, and does it turn out that they are forsaken at all?

don't trade respect for God and knowledge of the person of Jesus Christ for leaning on your own understanding

 

[posthuman]

That word" believes " is pisteuo in the Greek . It doesn't matter what I think it means , what matters is what the Greek dictionarys tell us it means .

Vines : " pisteuo is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender . Producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation of truth ."

It's as simple as that !

So in Jn 3 , if I just take out the mistranslated word" believes ," and replace it with the correct definition from the Greek dictionary , it should read , : that everyone who personally surrenders their lives to Him and lives a life inspired by such surrender , may have eternal life in Him .

good.

so Jesus defines the pisteuo that results in eternal life here as congruent to the instance of the brazen serpent in the wilderness.
what was the threshold of belief/works in Numbers 21 that resulted in life?

is that something human-measurable?
is the directly analogous pisteuo Jesus teaches Nicodemus with this statement something human-measurable?

 

[preacher4truth]

Pisteuo also includes to have faith in/trust in. So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have sufficiently surrendered to Christ “enough” and your life inspired by such surrender “measures up?” Now we are getting into salvation by works.

That's exactly what he's teaching.

 

[Studyman]

how does Mark 7 contradict 'visit the poor in their affliction' ?

or do you mean that imaginary religion in your head that you pretend i have?

please have a look at this thread:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/glasses.180890/

Mark 7:
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

No, your religion is not imaginary. You preach, as do "many" who call Him Lord, that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying God's Commandments. I have pointed out this lie over and over, not with my words, but with the Words of the same God you claim has already given you immortality. But you reject them outright, choosing instead to follow the teaching of the religious franchises of the land. And many other such things you preach.

The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time were not "trying" or "Striving" to obey God. Nothing you say, no amount of Lip service to God, no scripture can be twisted to make your preaching in this matter truth. You can preach these things in Christ's name. Claim Him as your God, give Him all the credit for everything you do. but none of that will cover the lie, the insidious falsehood that you promote. You can mock those who try and help you, insult those who point these things out as is common among religious man. But nothing will change the truth about the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, and the religion they created in spite of their own God.

I'm not interested in analogies which promote what I have already proven by the Word of God are falsehoods. When you can humble yourself to the truth about the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, then maybe you will be able to discern the truth about the religions of the land today. Until then:

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[BillG]

Remember , Father why have you forsaken me ?

How do you equate that to doubt?
After all Jesus knew he was going to have to sacrifice himself in our place.
Or did he not?

Did Jesus say those words because at that point in time our Father looked away whilst the sins of the world were being laid upon him?

 

[BillG]

That word" believes " is pisteuo in the Greek . It doesn't matter what I think it means , what matters is what the Greek dictionarys tell us it means .

Vines : " pisteuo is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender . Producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation of truth ."

It's as simple as that !

So in Jn 3 , if I just take out the mistranslated word" believes ," and replace it with the correct definition from the Greek dictionary , it should read , : that everyone who personally surrenders their lives to Him and lives a life inspired by such surrender , may have eternal life in Him .

Strong's #4100: pisteuo (pronounced pist-yoo'-o)

from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.



Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

́

pisteuō

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

1a) of the thing believed

1a1) to credit, have confidence

1b) in a moral or religious reference

1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity

2a) to be intrusted with a thing

Part of Speech: verb
Relation: from G4102

True genuine faith will result in action/works.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[TruthTalk]

So how much " believing " does it take to receive salvation ? Where is that line where one is " believing " enough , or just had one doubt to many , and lost their belief ?

Get real , your understanding is as wrong as those who think obedience is what saving Faith is .

Hi Pisteuo, if our God is a harsh task master I reckon our belief best be solid as a rock. If not and our God is a Loving Savoir who understands the human heart then maybe just a little belief is acceptable in His eyes.

And regarding your statement that maybe someone "lost their belief", I do not think God would ever let that happen because He is the author and perfecter of our faith, says the bible. I mean if Jesus began a good work in us why would he not finish the work right.

Hebrews12:2
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1Kings8:39
then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with everyone according to all they do,
since you know their hearts (for you alone know every human heart),

Isaiah42:3
"A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will
bring forth justice;