Original Sin, fact or fable.

[jb]

Original Sin, fact or fable.

Complete and utter fiction!

Deut 24v16, Ezek 18 (all), Isaiah 53v6

 

[Churinga]

We Are Not Born Guilty...
If Original Sin is true, then babies are born guilty of sin, totally depraved, destined for eternal punishment. Yet the Scriptures call children innocent, say that God made man upright and tell us that unless we become as little children we shall not enter Heaven.
I am not sure how much more clear it can get .. God made man upright, but MAN sought out many inventions.

• Behold, this only have I found: that God made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. [Ecclesiastes: 7:29]

Note that the word translated into the English upright is used almost 120 times in the Old Testament and often denotes moral righteousness. See the following examples.. what is right in God's eyes can be nothing but moral righteousness. Similarly the just walking in the right ways of God can be nothing but righteous.

• and he said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of Jehovah thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his eyes, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the diseases upon thee, which I have put upon the Egyptians: for I am Jehovah that healeth thee. [Exodus 15:26]
  The godly man is perished out of the earth, and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net. [Micah 7:2]
  Who is wise, that he may understand these things? prudent, that he may know them? for the ways of Jehovah are right, and the just shall walk in them; but transgressors shall fall therein. [Hosea 14:9]

The king of Tyre was specifically referred to as blameless from the time he was created until he began to sin....

• "You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." [Ezekiel: 28: 15]

Isaiah says we have turned to do evil and, centuries later, Paul echoes the thought

• ..... "All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him." [Isaiah: 53:6]
  They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is that doeth good, no, not, so much as one [Romans: 3:12]

When the nation of Israel, lacking trust in the Lord refused to go up against the Amorites, He told them that they would never see the land but their children who had no knowledge of good and evil would..

• Moreover your little ones, that ye said should be a prey, and your children, that this day have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. [Deuteronomy 1:39]

On more than one occasion the children of the Old Testament were referred to as innocent. Jesus took it a step further and not only prayed for children and blessed them, but said that the kingdom of God belongs to those who are converted (turn) and become like little children . But if little children are totally depraved, why should we become like them?

• Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto demons, And shed innocent blood, Even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, Whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood. Thus were they defiled with their works, And played the harlot in their doings. [Psalm: 106:37-39]
  Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, that they knew not, they and their fathers and the kings of Judah; and have filled this place with the blood of innocents, and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: [Jeremiah: 19:4-5]
  In that hour came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And he called to him a little child, and set him in the midst of them, and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven. [Matthew: 18:1-3]
  But Jesus said, Suffer the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for to such belongeth the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence. [Matthew: 19:14-15]
  And they were bringing unto him little children, that he should touch them: and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me; forbid them not: for to such belongeth the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein. And He took them in his arms, and blessed them, laying his hands upon them. [Mark: 10:13-16]

And would Jesus have compared Himself to one that was totally depraved?

• And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me: [Matthew: 18:5]

Original Sin Fact or Fable inplainsite.org

 

[TMS]

Sin is a choice, and when we are born we haven't choosen sin. Until we chose to sin we are not guilty. Because of Adam we are all born with, or inherit a sinful nature and we all do chose sin as a result. We all become guilty because of our evil nature. All are under sin and need salvation. We are born under the curse of sin which leads to death but we are not guilty of sin until we chose to sin. Power to overcome is a gift from God, through Jesus we can Overcome sin.
If sin isn't a choice than how can we be accountable?

 

[Churinga]

Sin is a choice, and when we are born we haven't choosen sin. Until we chose to sin we are not guilty. Because of Adam we are all born with, or inherit a sinful nature and we all do chose sin as a result. We all become guilty because of our evil nature. All are under sin and need salvation. We are born under the curse of sin which leads to death but we are not guilty of sin until we chose to sin. Power to overcome is a gift from God, through Jesus we can Overcome sin.
If sin isn't a choice than how can we be accountable?

When are we accountable for our sins? as an aside does the Rainbow Lorrikeet mean your an Aussie?

 

[Lillywolf]

EVERYONE IS born with the stain of sin and all must be washed in the blood of Christ for the stain to be removed.
Babies, cute little sinner though they may be, are not born innocent of that stain.
There is no "age of accountability" that refers to being free of sin. If you see that in the bible then post it so we can all be enlightened.

I feel sorry for any baby born to anyone who believes that. Cute little sinner? That's disgusting.
And not scriptural in the least.

 

[Lillywolf]

We Are Not Born Guilty...
If Original Sin is true, then babies are born guilty of sin, totally depraved, destined for eternal punishment. Yet the Scriptures call children innocent, say that God made man upright and tell us that unless we become as little children we shall not enter Heaven.
I am not sure how much more clear it can get .. God made man upright, but MAN sought out many inventions.

• Behold, this only have I found: that God made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. [Ecclesiastes: 7:29]

Note that the word translated into the English upright is used almost 120 times in the Old Testament and often denotes moral righteousness. See the following examples.. what is right in God's eyes can be nothing but moral righteousness. Similarly the just walking in the right ways of God can be nothing but righteous.

• and he said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of Jehovah thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his eyes, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the diseases upon thee, which I have put upon the Egyptians: for I am Jehovah that healeth thee. [Exodus 15:26]
  The godly man is perished out of the earth, and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net. [Micah 7:2]
  Who is wise, that he may understand these things? prudent, that he may know them? for the ways of Jehovah are right, and the just shall walk in them; but transgressors shall fall therein. [Hosea 14:9]

The king of Tyre was specifically referred to as blameless from the time he was created until he began to sin....

• "You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." [Ezekiel: 28: 15]

Isaiah says we have turned to do evil and, centuries later, Paul echoes the thought

• ..... "All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him." [Isaiah: 53:6]
  They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is that doeth good, no, not, so much as one [Romans: 3:12]

When the nation of Israel, lacking trust in the Lord refused to go up against the Amorites, He told them that they would never see the land but their children who had no knowledge of good and evil would..

• Moreover your little ones, that ye said should be a prey, and your children, that this day have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. [Deuteronomy 1:39]

On more than one occasion the children of the Old Testament were referred to as innocent. Jesus took it a step further and not only prayed for children and blessed them, but said that the kingdom of God belongs to those who are converted (turn) and become like little children . But if little children are totally depraved, why should we become like them?

• Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto demons, And shed innocent blood, Even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, Whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood. Thus were they defiled with their works, And played the harlot in their doings. [Psalm: 106:37-39]
  Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, that they knew not, they and their fathers and the kings of Judah; and have filled this place with the blood of innocents, and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: [Jeremiah: 19:4-5]
  In that hour came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And he called to him a little child, and set him in the midst of them, and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye turn, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven. [Matthew: 18:1-3]
  But Jesus said, Suffer the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for to such belongeth the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence. [Matthew: 19:14-15]
  And they were bringing unto him little children, that he should touch them: and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me; forbid them not: for to such belongeth the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein. And He took them in his arms, and blessed them, laying his hands upon them. [Mark: 10:13-16]

And would Jesus have compared Himself to one that was totally depraved?

• And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me: [Matthew: 18:5]

Original Sin Fact or Fable inplainsite.org

AMEN!
Jesus said unless we become like little children we shall not see the kingdom of Heaven.
Translate that in the language of those who think newborns are cute little sinners: "unless we become like sinner children we shall not see the kingdom of Heaven."
That belief would also necessarily entail newborns that suffer crib death are going to Hell.

Can you imagine?
This though could be the confusion. What is arguing here for "original sin" is that member(s) of the Roman Catholic Church. Infant baptism. That could explain their beliefs.
The church tells them they're born sinners.

Not the Bible.

 

[preacher4truth]

If people choose not to read the article then they can only form a comment based on prior teaching and conviction there would be less 1% of people that have reexamined the doctrine which originates with Augustine and picked up by Calvin.

You're making up your own "facts" with your 1% comment above. This doesn't add any credibility to your already errant take, it makes you rather less believable.

Please don't do things like that, 99.9% of us born in sin and in Adam don't like it.

 

[Lillywolf]

Sin is a choice, and when we are born we haven't choosen sin. Until we chose to sin we are not guilty. Because of Adam we are all born with, or inherit a sinful nature and we all do chose sin as a result. We all become guilty because of our evil nature. All are under sin and need salvation. We are born under the curse of sin which leads to death but we are not guilty of sin until we chose to sin. Power to overcome is a gift from God, through Jesus we can Overcome sin.
If sin isn't a choice than how can we be accountable?

Great question. If we're born sinners that is by God's law that makes sin imputed from Adam onward. So we're born damned and destined for Hell when we first come into the world as living flesh with God's soul within us. That would be kind of strange wouldn't it?
God gave us a soul in newborn flesh that should it die at birth lets say , being God is omniscient, that new life then goes to Hell when it is time.
Never having a chance to find Christ because at the first breath they were property of the Devil.

 

[TMS]

When are we accountable for our sins? as an aside does the Rainbow Lorrikeet mean your an Aussie?

Yes i'm an Aussie,
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I'm not going to say you are accountable at a time or place in your life because God is Judge. You choose who you obey, and when we sin we are accounted as dead. Satan is the accuser and can rightly say that we are sinners worthy of death, except we have an advocate, JESUS, who covers us with His blood.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Jesus said unless we become like little children we shall not see the kingdom of Heaven.
Translate that in the language of those who think newborns are cute little sinners: "unless we become like sinner children we shall not see the kingdom of Heaven."
That belief would also necessarily entail newborns that suffer crib death are going to Hell

Your comments here clearly show that you have NO CLUE about the doctrine of sin. Then you have taken a Scripture out of context, and made up your ow little take on it. Also, you have not bothered to understand what has been already posted, since you are totally consumed with attacking the Roman Catholic church on this matter. While infant baptism is not according to Scripture, your false notions are equally foreign to Scripture.

Since I have posted enough from the Bible, I will not do so again. By the same token, you should stop opposing what is clearly presented in the Bible.

 

[Nehemiah6]

FALSE NOTION #1 -- Adam s sin was not IMPUTED to anyone. The consequences of his disobedience brought sin and death upon the human race.

If we're born sinners that is by God's law that makes sin imputed from Adam onward.

FALSE NOTION #2 -- God s soul is not placed within any human being.

So we're born damned and destined for Hell when we first come into the world as living flesh with God's soul within us.

FALSE NOTION #3 -- Calling the fallen human race *strange* when the Bible clearly presents that a truth.

That would be kind of strange wouldn't it?

FALSE NOTION #4 - Newborn babies are destined for Hell

God gave us a soul in newborn flesh that should it die at birth lets say , being God is omniscient, that new life then goes to Hell when it is time.

FALSE NOTION #5 -- Newborn babies are the properly of the Devil

Never having a chance to find Christ because at the first breath they were property of the Devil.

As you can see Lillywolf, you DO NOT HAVE A CLUE about this subject. Time to get busy with some serious study.

 

[TMS]

There is a difference between a selfish sinful nature, and being guilty of sin. This explains how Jesus was able to be tempted in all points but never choose to sin. Temptation does not = sin. Sin is giving in to temptation.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

EVERYONE IS born with the stain of sin and all must be washed in the blood of Christ for the stain to be removed.
Babies, cute little sinner though they may be, are not born innocent of that stain.
There is no "age of accountability" that refers to being free of sin. If you see that in the bible then post it so we can all be enlightened.

you want to see the "word age of accountability"?You will just have to understand what LINE upon LINE,here a little,there a little means,sorry about that but that's an Issue of can I show you that sin Is not Imputed where there Is no law?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

When are we accountable for our sins? as an aside does the Rainbow Lorrikeet mean your an Aussie?

Romans 7:7-10
King James Version(KJV)

7.)What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8.)But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.

9.)For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10.)And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.

 

[Hevosmies]

You are quoting Ezekiel 28 about the king of tyre. being blameless until unrighteousness was found in you.

I WOULD LIKE TO SUBMIT TO YOU sirs. that its not talking about just a human king, but about LUCIFER. A.k.a the devil. Check out the context!

 

[GraceAndTruth]

you want to see the "word age of accountability"?You will just have to understand what LINE upon LINE,here a little,there a little means,sorry about that but that's an Issue of can I show you that sin Is not Imputed where there Is no law?

I understand "line upon line, precept upon precept".

5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, [a]we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and [b]we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but [c]we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; [d]though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified [e]by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved [f]by His life. 11 And not only this, [g]but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for [h]until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a [i]type of Him who was to come.

Distinction & Nuance

The problem is there are different "parts" to the doctrine of original sin.

It is possible, therefore, to agree with some parts and not other parts.

If someone asks me if I believe in original sin,
I answer by saying "Well, what do you mean by original sin?"



...
...

what are the parts as you see them?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I understand "line upon line, precept upon precept".

5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, [a]we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and [b]we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but [c]we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; [d]though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified [e]by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved [f]by His life. 11 And not only this, [g]but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Good verses but they are not explaining what line upon line,here a little there a little means.

 

[maxwel]

what are the parts as you see them?

The doctrine of original sin contains many different issues and points of doctrine.

I'll jot some of them down later today if I have time.

..

 

[Lillywolf]

Your comments here clearly show that you have NO CLUE about the doctrine of sin. Then you have taken a Scripture out of context, and made up your ow little take on it. Also, you have not bothered to understand what has been already posted, since you are totally consumed with attacking the Roman Catholic church on this matter. While infant baptism is not according to Scripture, your false notions are equally foreign to Scripture.

Since I have posted enough from the Bible, I will not do so again. By the same token, you should stop opposing what is clearly presented in the Bible.

No, I'll not stop posting one bit. I am called to so as to refute false teachers who's purpose is to hope to confuse even the elect. Not on my watch!

 

[Lillywolf]

FALSE NOTION #1 -- Adam s sin was not IMPUTED to anyone. The consequences of his disobedience brought sin and death upon the human race.

I'll start at the first of the many falsehoods you posted in your replies so as to point out what is blatantly obvious to anyone who knows their scripture.

A personal claim isn't God's word!
Your "false notion" and its rebuttal means nothing.
Even you know this.

Because you can never post a scripture to back it up.
If you could you would have. Five times.

You see Nehemiah, you can disagree all you want. That's personal not scriptural. And the latter is what matters.