Original Sin, fact or fable.

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Churinga

Active member
Nov 12, 2018
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#81
...But Become Guilty From Our "Youth"
There are several passages in the Old Testament that state it is from their youth that people become sinners...
  • And Jehovah smelled the sweet savor; and Jehovah said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake, for that the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done. [Genesis: 8:21]
    Let us lie down in our shame, and let our confusion cover us; for we have sinned against Jehovah our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day; and we have not obeyed the voice of Jehovah our God. [Jeremiah: 3:25]
    I spake unto thee in thy prosperity; but thou saidst, I will not hear. This hath been thy manner from thy youth, that thou obeyedst not my voice. [Jeremiah: 22:21]
    For the children of Israel and the children of Judah have done only that which was evil in my sight from their youth; for the children of Israel have only provoked me to anger with the work of their hands, saith Jehovah. [Jeremiah: 2:30]
Isaiah does refer to a time when a child does know the difference and is able to choose. No specific age is given, presumably because the age of reason will differ from one young person to another.
  • Butter and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou abhorrest shall be forsaken. [Isaiah 7:15-16]
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Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
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#82
...But Become Guilty From Our "Youth"
There are several passages in the Old Testament that state it is from their youth that people become sinners...
  • And Jehovah smelled the sweet savor; and Jehovah said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake, for that the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done. [Genesis: 8:21]
    Let us lie down in our shame, and let our confusion cover us; for we have sinned against Jehovah our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day; and we have not obeyed the voice of Jehovah our God. [Jeremiah: 3:25]
    I spake unto thee in thy prosperity; but thou saidst, I will not hear. This hath been thy manner from thy youth, that thou obeyedst not my voice. [Jeremiah: 22:21]
    For the children of Israel and the children of Judah have done only that which was evil in my sight from their youth; for the children of Israel have only provoked me to anger with the work of their hands, saith Jehovah. [Jeremiah: 2:30]
Isaiah does refer to a time when a child does know the difference and is able to choose. No specific age is given, presumably because the age of reason will differ from one young person to another.
  • Butter and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou abhorrest shall be forsaken. [Isaiah 7:15-16]
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Amen!
Isaiah 7 even alludes to an age of accountability when speaking to the house of David and the foretelling of Emmanuel. Saying that before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.....
 

Churinga

Active member
Nov 12, 2018
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#83
Adam.. Physical or Spiritual Death?
Ample Biblical evidence has been presented refuting the false doctrine that Adam's sin was somehow passed down to all his descendants, causing humanity to be totally depraved. As shown above, numerous Bible verses, in plain literal language, teach that sin is not inherited, but that human sinfulness commences from "youth", when the child is old enough to be able to choose between evil and good...
However Romans 5:12 does say [Emphasis Added]
  • Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned
Many have come to the conclusion that Paul had to be talking about a "spiritual death" in this passage, primarily because in Genesis: 2:17, God tells Adam that in the day he eats of the forbidden fruit he will "surely die". However, as we well know, both Adam and Eve did eat of the tree, but did not physically die for quite a while, going on to have several sons. While we do not know how old Eve was when she died, Adam lived to the ripe old age of 930 [Genesis: 5:5]. Therefore, as the argument usually goes, since Adam's physical death does not occur "in the day" that he sinned, God must have been speaking of a spiritual death, or a separation from Him. The first evidence of this "spiritual death", or broken fellowship with God, is said to be when Adam and Eve "hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God" in the garden.
However is this accurate? Did Adam die spiritually or physically? And what are we to make of the fact that Adam certainly did not die "in the day" he ate of the forbidden fruit? The problem is that most translations have Genesis: 2:17 reading [Emphasis Added]
  • but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely (or certainly) die.
That is, most translations but one... Young's literal translation renders the verse so...
  • and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it-- dying thou dost die.' [YLT]
This throws a whole new slant on the idea that Adam was supposed to die on the day that he ate of the Tree. What the literal translation of the verse is saying is that God told Adam that if he ate of the fruit he would begin the process of physically dying, until he finally and completely died. Due to his transgression Adam began this process as an adult (we are not told how long he lived in the garden), but for the rest of mankind it starts much earlier. In a sense, given the mortal nature of humans, the process of dying starts at birth. Every moment of man's life may be considered a step towards that inevitable end .. death.
Noting that there is no indication in the opening chapters of Genesis that Adam was created immortal, one has to ask the all important question.... What changed in Adam and Eve's circumstances that caused them to begin the process of dying?
The answer is relatively simple.
In view of their sin of eating from the Tree of Good and Evil, God did not want them to also partake of the Tree of Life, and live for ever (Genesis: 3:22), therefore He banished them from the garden (Genesis: 3:23). They were now separated from the only resource that would enable them to stave off physical death ... The Tree of Life. In fact an angel (or angels) with a flaming sword stood guard at the entrance to the garden thus ensuring that they could not get back in. The Tree of Life was henceforth denied to all humanity, and without access to this life giving resource, we too are doomed to physical death. This was Adam's Legacy.
However, all is not lost. Every single member of the human race has hope in Christ who is life. Salvation and the New Birth restores us to what we once lost. And whether the Tree of Life in the age to come is literal or figurative, the principal is the same in the three reference to said tree in the book of Revelation... We once more have access to everlasting life.
  • He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God. [Revelation 2:7]
    in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve manner offruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. [Revelation 22:2]
    Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and my enter in by the gates into the city. [Revelation 22:14]
Two verses commonly quoted to show a reversal of this "Spiritual Death" are Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13 . Note that neither verse actually says "spiritual death" which has to be assumed...
  • "even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved)" [Ephesians 2:5]
    And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses; [Colossians 2:13]
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