The Bookends
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1) the blessings of tribulations
What would those be?
This couldn't possibly be what is in mind when one speaks of the blessings of tribulations . . .
"And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope" (Romans 5:3-4).
Is so, then how does one confuse the trials and tribulations of a Christian's life to the 7-year "Time of Jacob's Troubles?"
That's kind of like comparing a firecracker to a nuke, yea?
What would those be?
This couldn't possibly be what is in mind when one speaks of the blessings of tribulations . . .
"And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope" (Romans 5:3-4).
Is so, then how does one confuse the trials and tribulations of a Christian's life to the 7-year "Time of Jacob's Troubles?"
That's kind of like comparing a firecracker to a nuke, yea?
We [as pre-tribbers] are not expecting to be "raptured out of them [tribulations (plural--lots of them! 
)]"... As I stated, those have been being experienced by "the Church which is His body" for the past some-2000 years during and throughout its existence on the earth. We are not "awaiting" its experience during a relatively short period of time [the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" that Rev1:1 speaks of and then describes in its chpts 6-19], and which most of "the Church which is His body" will have (and has) died well before coming anywhere NEAR to that time frame (yet future).
The "rapture" only occurs ONCE.
It pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints).
)]"... As I stated, those have been being experienced by "the Church which is His body" for the past some-2000 years during and throughout its existence on the earth. We are not "awaiting" its experience during a relatively short period of time [the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" that Rev1:1 speaks of and then describes in its chpts 6-19], and which most of "the Church which is His body" will have (and has) died well before coming anywhere NEAR to that time frame (yet future).The "rapture" only occurs ONCE.
It pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints).
I have the impression from your other postings that you are familiar with Daniel's 70 weeks, and that you have a textbook knowledge that 69 of those weeks are past, beginning with the decree of Cyrus to return the Jews back to their homeland and ending with the death of Christ at the Cross. Am I incorrect in this assumption?
At any rate, I doubt that I need to tell you that one week remains unfulfilled for God "to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
Be that as it may, you must be aware that this 70th week is a Jewish thing (unless you hold to replacement theology) and the church is not involved.
At any rate, I doubt that I need to tell you that one week remains unfulfilled for God "to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
Be that as it may, you must be aware that this 70th week is a Jewish thing (unless you hold to replacement theology) and the church is not involved.
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A modern interpretation of Daniel 70 weeks is to remove the final 70th week from the previous 69 consecutive weeks and assign it to some unknown time in the future. Classic Daniel 9 interpretation is the 70th week ended right after the 69th week, around the time of Christ, and Jacob's trouble occured from 66-70 AD with the besiege of Jerusalem, where 1 million Jews died and the remaining ones scattered to the four corners of the earth.
Can you think of any other timeline in the Bible that was fragmented in the way people suggest for Daniel 70 weeks? The Bible and its prophecies would be uncomprehensible if people break it up it the same way they do to Daniel 9.
Can you think of any other timeline in the Bible that was fragmented in the way people suggest for Daniel 70 weeks? The Bible and its prophecies would be uncomprehensible if people break it up it the same way they do to Daniel 9.
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I did see your thread back then, but I disagree with it. Here's why. I believe verses 15-17 parallel Isaiah 49:10, which I believe is an "earthly MK" verse and passage. It is showing their end destination (after having been coming out of "the great tribulation" [2nd half of trib]).
I agree with what William Kelly says here, regarding the "a great multitude... of all the nations [Gentiles]" of Rev7:9 -
[quoting]
"Here we read that one of the elders talked about the Gentile crowd, and explained who they were to the prophet, as he evidently without this would have been at fault. If the elders mean the glorified saints, these Gentiles cannot. Most assuredly they are not all the saints, because the hundred and forty-four thousand of Israel we have seen expressly distinguished from them; and so are the Jewish remnant in Rev. 14. Who are they and what? They are a crowd of Gentiles to be preserved by God's gracious power in these last days. Not a word implies that here they were glorified; there is no reason to doubt that they were still in their natural bodies. If they are said to be "before the throne," this cannot overthrow the many proofs that they are alive on the earth. Thus the woman, for instance (in Rev. 12), is also described as seen in heaven; but this is only where the prophet saw her in the vision. Why are we necessarily to gather that these Gentiles belong to heaven? The seer saw them there, but whether "before the throne" means that they are actually in heaven is another question, to be decided by the evidence as a whole.
"In this case it is plain from other statements that they are not heavenly; and to it are weighty objections. First of all they are definitely contra-distinguished from Israel, who clearly are on earth, and thus naturally this company would be on earth too, the one Jewish, and the other Gentile. Next they "come out of the great tribulation." Far from its being a general body in respect to all time, this proves that it is a future and peculiar though countless group; for it consists only of Gentiles preserved and blessed of God as coming out of "the great tribulation."
"In the millennial time there will be a great ingathering of the Gentiles; but those before us [that is, those referred to in 7:9] precede that day. They are saints from among the Gentiles at the great crisis, called to the knowledge of God by the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom," or the "everlasting gospel," of which we hear respectively in the Gospel of Matthew [24:14, 26:13] and in the Revelation. The Lord Himself tells the disciples that "this gospel of the kingdom" shall be "preached in all the world for a witness unto all the nations" (or all the Gentiles); "and then shall the end come." Is not this the very time spoken of here? It is clearly not a general summary of what God is doing now, but a description of what is yet to be, specially just before the end, when "the great tribulation" bursts out. John saw the fruit of divine grace even then in this vast crowd from among the Gentiles. The details of the description fall in with and confirm this inference. But the unparalleled tribulation is to fall on the Jews, as we are also told. This is far wider, and not so severe."
--William Kelly, Commentary on Revelation 7 (excerpt)
[end quoting; bold and underlined mine, bracketed references mine]
I believe they are "resurrected" to stand again on the earth (not "raptured," which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" and only occurs ONCE).
I agree with what William Kelly says here, regarding the "a great multitude... of all the nations [Gentiles]" of Rev7:9 -
[quoting]
"Here we read that one of the elders talked about the Gentile crowd, and explained who they were to the prophet, as he evidently without this would have been at fault. If the elders mean the glorified saints, these Gentiles cannot. Most assuredly they are not all the saints, because the hundred and forty-four thousand of Israel we have seen expressly distinguished from them; and so are the Jewish remnant in Rev. 14. Who are they and what? They are a crowd of Gentiles to be preserved by God's gracious power in these last days. Not a word implies that here they were glorified; there is no reason to doubt that they were still in their natural bodies. If they are said to be "before the throne," this cannot overthrow the many proofs that they are alive on the earth. Thus the woman, for instance (in Rev. 12), is also described as seen in heaven; but this is only where the prophet saw her in the vision. Why are we necessarily to gather that these Gentiles belong to heaven? The seer saw them there, but whether "before the throne" means that they are actually in heaven is another question, to be decided by the evidence as a whole.
"In this case it is plain from other statements that they are not heavenly; and to it are weighty objections. First of all they are definitely contra-distinguished from Israel, who clearly are on earth, and thus naturally this company would be on earth too, the one Jewish, and the other Gentile. Next they "come out of the great tribulation." Far from its being a general body in respect to all time, this proves that it is a future and peculiar though countless group; for it consists only of Gentiles preserved and blessed of God as coming out of "the great tribulation."
"In the millennial time there will be a great ingathering of the Gentiles; but those before us [that is, those referred to in 7:9] precede that day. They are saints from among the Gentiles at the great crisis, called to the knowledge of God by the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom," or the "everlasting gospel," of which we hear respectively in the Gospel of Matthew [24:14, 26:13] and in the Revelation. The Lord Himself tells the disciples that "this gospel of the kingdom" shall be "preached in all the world for a witness unto all the nations" (or all the Gentiles); "and then shall the end come." Is not this the very time spoken of here? It is clearly not a general summary of what God is doing now, but a description of what is yet to be, specially just before the end, when "the great tribulation" bursts out. John saw the fruit of divine grace even then in this vast crowd from among the Gentiles. The details of the description fall in with and confirm this inference. But the unparalleled tribulation is to fall on the Jews, as we are also told. This is far wider, and not so severe."
--William Kelly, Commentary on Revelation 7 (excerpt)
[end quoting; bold and underlined mine, bracketed references mine]
I believe they are "resurrected" to stand again on the earth (not "raptured," which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" and only occurs ONCE).
It isn't exactly unknown as the the beginning point . . . as there was a transitory period between the cross and the church. However, in Acts 13.
"Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles" (Acts 13:46).
Those six words by Paul, as God's spokesman, terminated God's ministry to Israel and put them on a shelf until the time when He would once again deal with His people . . . at the conclusion of the church age.
Does it matter if there is another time in biblical history where God acted in such a manner? However, God does promise to restore His people from the nations. When did this occur in the Bible?
"Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles" (Acts 13:46).
Those six words by Paul, as God's spokesman, terminated God's ministry to Israel and put them on a shelf until the time when He would once again deal with His people . . . at the conclusion of the church age.
Does it matter if there is another time in biblical history where God acted in such a manner? However, God does promise to restore His people from the nations. When did this occur in the Bible?
Simple to prove . . . tell me when these things were accomplished? When did Israel as a nation receive her Messiah?
"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
EDIT ^ forgot to supply the link / source : https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/revelation/7.htm
It happens to the best of us. LOL. We're all in this together, learning, growing, changing... it's all good.
It happens to the best of us. LOL. We're all in this together, learning, growing, changing... it's all good.
