The Bookends

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 22, 2018

Yes, Paul is addressing both Gentile believers and Jewish believers (IN CHRIST; the ONE BODY), and he states it in two parts:

"as many as walk according to this rule, peace be UPON THEM [this is the Gentile believers], and mercy [this phrase distinctly comes BETWEEN the two "UPON's"], AND UPON the Israel of God [those of Israel WHO BELIEVED]."

If it just read "be upon them, and upon the Israel of God," then we could conceivably consider the two [separated phrases] to be ONE AND THE SAME [identically], in that, it might mean "be upon them, even upon the Israel of God," but it clearly does not. The TWO "upon's" phrases are clearly and distinctly separated by "and mercy" (to make it abundantly clear). Just as Paul could also address men and then women (in the ONE BODY) in distinct ways. [individually]

mobius8curve · Nov 22, 2018

Contextually the passage is defining those "as many as shall walk by this rule" which is define in the previous verse being "neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature" upon them mercy and peace and upon the "Israel of God" who are Abraham's seed through promise:

Galatians 6:15-17 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. (16) And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (17) Henceforth let no man trouble me; for I bear branded on my body the marks of Jesus.

Paul clearly established who Abraham's seed was according to promise:

Galatians 3:25-29 But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. (26) For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. (27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ. (28) There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

Pay clear attention to what Paul said in Ephesians chapter 2 because he is very clearly proving the believing Gentiles are "fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God" called "the commonwealth of Israel":

Ephesians 2:11-22 Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands; (12) that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ. (14) For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition, (15) having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; (16) and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) and he came and preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh: (18) for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father. (19) So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, (20) being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; (21) in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord; (22) in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

**Link removed**

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 22, 2018

^ I believe that much in Ephesians 2 and 3 are misunderstood. I agree with the general thoughts, here, by William Kelly (both links, below):

[quoting excerpt]

"He adds further, "Now, therefore, ye [Gentiles] are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God." They were brought out of all that condition of distance, and made part of His household, "and are built upon the foundation" - not of the law - but "of the apostles and prophets." What prophets? Of the New Testament only. God was not taking up an old foundation, but laying down a new one; and this new one He begins in Christ dead and risen. It is the foundation, not of the prophets and apostles, but "of the apostles and prophets." The phrase in Greek means that both classes, the apostles and prophets, were united in this joint work. They were together employed in laying this common basis. We read (Ephesians 3:5) of the mystery of Christ, "which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit." These words set aside all controversy; for they prove that it is a question only of the present. So in Ephesians 4:11, "He gave some apostles and some prophets." Some of the New Testament writers were not apostles, and yet they were just as much inspired. We are said, then, to be built upon this "foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner-stone." It is not merely prophecy or promise, but "Jesus Christ Himself" - His Person."

--William Kelly, Ephesians 2

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/ephesians/2.htm [Ephesians 2]

[end quoting, underline mine]

[and then re: Ephesians 3, here]

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/ephesians/3.htm

P.S. I have a personal online-practice of not opening links of sites I am unfamiliar with, my apologies.

mobius8curve · Nov 22, 2018

TheDivineWatermark said:

Please try to read Ephesians 3:5 within context:

Ephesians 3:4-6 whereby, when ye read, ye can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ; (5) which in other generations was not made known unto the sons of men, as it hath now been revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; (6) to wit, that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs, and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

"The mystery of Christ" is "that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs, and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel"

You do realize that physical Israel drank from the spiritual rock of Christ while in the desert with Moses:

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; (2) and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (3) and did all eat the same spiritual food; (4) and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.

And the "sacred writings" Paul referred to were the OT because the canon set of NT books were not compiled until after Paul's death:

2 Timothy 3:14-17 But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; (15) and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (16) Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness: (17) that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.

Please take note of the difference between how "William Kelly" expressed his thesis for Ephesians chapter 2 and how I allowed the scripture to teach as precept upon precept "here a little there a little" as Father commands us to learn His Word:

Isaiah 28:9-10 Whom will he teach knowledge? and whom will he make to understand the message? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts? (10) For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little.

Since you live in fear of opening websites your not familiar with I will copy and paste my link here for you to study but must post it in several posts as we are only allowed to post under 10,000 characters per post:

All Israel

Who is “all Israel” today?

Peter made mention of some things Paul taught that were hard to be understood causing the ignorant and unstedfast to wrestle with:

2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you; (16) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

One of those subjects Paul so eloquently proved but the church so violently opposes is the understanding of who the Israel of God is today:

Galatians 6:15-16 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. (16) And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Let’s pull some key scriptures together to help lay the ground work for what Paul was saying

)

Almost 2000 years before Christ, our Father made a covenant with Abraham that he would be the father of a multitude of nations. Father required every male throughout Abraham’s generations that was born in his house, bought with money, or any foreigner that is not of his seed was to be physically circumcised as a token of the covenant:

Genesis 17:1-14 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, Jehovah appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be thou perfect. (2) And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. (3) And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, (4) As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be the father of a multitude of nations. (5) Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for the father of a multitude of nations have I made thee. (6) And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. (7) And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee. (8) And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (9) And God said unto Abraham, And as for thee, thou shalt keep my covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations. (10) This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. (11) And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt me and you. (12) And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner that is not of thy seed. (13) He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. (14) And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

mobius8curve · Nov 22, 2018

It is very important to note that though this covenant was made with Abraham around 1900 BC, it was not until 1200 years later during the reign of king Ahaz around 700 BC that the first mention in the bible of the nickname “Jews” was used to refer to the people of Israel:

2 Kings 16:5-6 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him. (6) At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drove the Jews from Elath; and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there, unto this day.

After the resurrection and ascension of Christ, our Father gave the nickname of a “Jew” to those who are circumcised inwardly in their heart in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God:

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: (29) but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

So today through faith in Christ Jesus we as Gentiles are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise of the gospel that was preached to Abraham 4000 years ago that all who are Christ’s from all nations are blessed:

Galatians 3:7-9 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. (8) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. (9) So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.

Galatians 3:26-29 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. (27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ. (28) There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye are Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, heirs according to promise.

The fact that this gospel was spoken by God to Abraham 2000 years before Christ proves our Father always intended to bring Gentiles with the Jews into one man in Christ Jesus. Not as physical Jews but spiritual Jews inwardly whose circumcision is that of the heart in the spirit not in the letter for those baptized into Christ and have put on Christ:

Romans 6:4-5 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

The physical Jews who were the children of Israel were also called the church who Moses led out of Egypt into the wilderness:

Acts 7:37-39 This is that Moses, who said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. (38) This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us: (39) to whom our fathers would not be obedient, but thrust him from them, and turned back in their hearts unto Egypt,

So if our Father through His Holy Spirit moved Paul to refer to the children of Israel as the church and always intended to bring Gentiles in from all nations then the new covenant is with the house of Israel who is the church made up of both Jews and Greeks(Gentiles) as one man in Christ with no distinction between them:

Hebrews 8:9-10 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt; For they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people:

Romans 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him:

Colossians 3:10-11 and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him: (11) where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all.

Under the old covenant the Gentiles were alienated from the commonwealth of Israel but the new covenant reconciled both the Jew and the Gentile into one body unto God through the cross so the Gentiles became fellow-citizens of Israel as fellow saints of the household of God:

Ephesians 2:11-22 Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands; (12) that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ. (14) For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition, (15) having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; (16) and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) and he came and preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh: (18) for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father. (19) So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, (20) being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; (21) in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord; (22) in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

Father never intended for His children to be just from the physical seed of Abraham but the children of His promise were chosen by Him from both the physical Jews and the Gentiles before the foundation of the world as He foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will:

Romans 9:6-8 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: (7) neither, because they are Abraham’s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (8) That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.

Galatians 3:13-14 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: (14) that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: (4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: (5) having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We must never forget it is Father who declares from the beginning of the world who His sons will be in the end:

Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me; (10) declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;

He declared in Isaiah that only a remnant of physical Israel will be saved when He is about to finish His Word upon the earth:

Romans 9:27-28 And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved: (28) for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

But two chapters later Paul is declaring “all Israel” shall be saved:

Romans 11:26 and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

mobius8curve · Nov 22, 2018

The only way for this to be true is if Father declared from the beginning that the commonwealth of Israel will be made up of many Jews and Gentiles grafted into ONE olive tree:

Romans 11:7-28 What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: (8) according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day. (9) And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them: (10) Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, And bow thou down their back always. (11) I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. (12) Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (13) But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; (14) if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them. (15) For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? (16) And if the firstfruit is holy, so is the lump: and if the root is holy, so are the branches. (17) But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree; (18) glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee. (19) Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. (20) Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: (21) for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee. (22) Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God’s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (23) And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. (24) For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (25) For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; (26) and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (27) And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins. (28) As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake

So the mystery is the commonwealth of Israel is made up of only those Jews and Gentiles who are not broken off of that ONE olive tree called “all Israel” that was also called the “church” in the wilderness when Moses was on mount Sinai receiving the living oracles:

Acts 7:38 This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us:

Many bible teachers believe the tribulation is only for Old Testament Israel but the Word of God proves the church is the woman that must again flee into their wilderness to prove who is worthy to be a part of “all Israel”:

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Acts 14:22 confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 13:19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.

**Link removed**

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 23, 2018

mobius8curve said:

And,

"The LORD God made garments of skin and clothed Adam and his wife." Genesis 3:21

...so? No one is making the point that OT saints were not "saved," if that's the point you think I was making.

"Old Testament Israel" has been long dead.

I disagree that "the woman" is identified as "the Church which is His body" who needs to prove its worthiness...

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 23, 2018

^ I don't want to get into all of the SEQUENTIAL clues in this post (as I've made other posts on that in the past), but the Olivet Discourse SEQUENCE issues prove that the 70ad events must take place BEFORE all of "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural; Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11]," the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" is the "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" whom other passages speak of and elaborate on...

mobius8curve · Nov 23, 2018

Your assertion: "Old Testament Israel" has been long dead.

Some of physical Israel will be grafted back into their olive tree toward the end of the tribulation after the fulness of the Gentiles were grafted in to that ONE olive tree:

Romans 11:24-26 For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (25) For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; (26) and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Your assertion: "I disagree that "the woman" is identified as "the Church which is His body" who needs to prove its worthiness..."

Isaiah disagrees with you:

Isaiah 4:1 And seven women(seven churches in Revelation) shall take hold of one man(Jesus) in that day(last days), saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name; take thou away our reproach.

Paul disagrees with you:

2 Timothy 3:6-7 For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women(churches) laden with sins, led away by divers lusts, (7) ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Peter disagrees with you:

1 Peter 4:12-19 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial among you, which cometh upon you to prove you, as though a strange thing happened unto you: (13) but insomuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings, rejoice; that at the revelation of his glory also ye may rejoice with exceeding joy. (14) If ye are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are ye; because the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God resteth upon you. (15) For let none of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or an evil-doer, or as a meddler in other men's matters: (16) but if a man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God in this name. (17) For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God? (18) And if the righteous is scarcely saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear? (19) Wherefore let them also that suffer according to the will of God commit their souls in well-doing unto a faithful Creator.

Yes "SEQUENTIALLY" 70AD did occur and all the events that are presently manifesting(thanks in part to Trump) are the beginning of birth pangs for the "one man" your referring to in verse 24 is actually "many who shall come in the name" declaring they are "anointed" as Christ was:

Matthew 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray. (5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray.

I covered the "mystery of lawlessness"(that your refering to) here for those not so fearful of opening a link that doesn't agree with their present thesis:

**Link removed**

GraceAndTruth · Nov 23, 2018

PennEd said:

I dont' follow "links to websites" .........a precaution as a user of the internet.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 23, 2018

mobius8curve said:

Well, I see a distinction between the "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis]" of Matt24:4/Mk13:5 and the plural "many" of the following verses (though certainly of one mind and purpose, you could say), so that, I see the "A CERTAIN ONE" to be correlating with the following verses:

--"whose coming/arrival/advent/presence/parousia" ["man of sin"], which is parallel to Daniel 9:27a[26 - "prince THAT SHALL COME"], "for ONE WEEK" (the "he, he, he" of Daniel 9:27 IS the "who, who, who" of 2Th2:9a,4,8--both passages covering the ENTIRE "7-yrs," so that the "BE REVEALED" occurs at the START), parallel with...

--the rider of the white horse, with a bow SEAL#1 ["bow" often representing "DECEPTION"] (of whom it states, "conquering and to conquer"--same Grk word as is used in the later events of Rev11:7 "and shall overcome [them, and kill them (the 2W)]" and 13:7 "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" [compare this passage with that of Daniel 7:20-21, which passage describes a specific individual as...])

--"whose look was more stout than his fellows" (the one doing the thing in the next verse), i.e. an individual person/man

...but 2Th2 states that that time period "will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [ONE THING *FIRST* (THE EVENT [noun] already-mentioned in v.1!)] AND the man of sin be revealed..."

And THIS SEQUENCE is repeated 3x in this passage, as well as being the SAME SEQUENCE that 1Th4 through 5 showed (recall, I'd said that 1Th5:2-3 is "the INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL; Mt24:5-8/Mk13:6-8 and everything following]" that will follow on from that ONE [the all-of-the-above "A CERTAIN ONE"/INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"/SEAL #1 at the START of the 7-yrs])

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 23, 2018

However, I must say that I'm glad to see that you at least grasp that "the beginning of birth PANGS" do not start on the heels of the 70ad events, but far-future to that.

I made another post (or cpl of posts) earlier today, on that related idea:

[quoting my posts]

... I had stated [re: Micah 5:3] the word "sequentially after verse 2" [AFTER the v.2 events] (and note the "give them up, until" part, in Micah 5:3); and compare "the remnant of his brethren [shall return...]" (v.3) with the phrase "the remnant of her children" in Rev12.

[tried to] EDIT ^ : "[comp Hos5:15-6:3 ("UNTIL"...and "Come, let us return..."), along with its parallels I've listed in the past: Isa26:16-21 [note the "PANGS" context]; Ezek37:12-14,20-23; Rom11:15; Dan12:1-4,10; etc... (ALL regarding Israel's FUTURE; i.e. Israel coming up out of "the graveyard of nations," where scattered [i.e. Lo Ammi]); also Rom9:26/Hos1:10 (re: Israel) contrasted with Rom9:25/Hos2:23b (re: the Gentiles)]"

[end quoting]

__________

again, I believe "the Olive Tree" is "God's Governmental Ways Upon the Earth" (not "salvation," not "All Israel," not some other things ppl suggest...)

mobius8curve · Nov 24, 2018

You really do not understand the allegory found within this parable:

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two men be in the field; one is taken, and one is left:

First you need to grasp the concept that the "last hour" has been two days or 2000 years:

1 John 2:18-19 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour. (19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

Second you need to understand that since Christ there has only been one generation as this passage proves when you consider the context above this passage:

Matthew 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations; and from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations; and from the carrying away to Babylon unto the Christ fourteen generations.

Of those two men one is seated in heavenly places IN Christ Jesus and the other man dwells on the earth:

Ephesians 2:6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus:

Revelation 6:9-10 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: (10) and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Until you grasp that the ONE olive tree is a corporate body from the foundation of the world just as much as the antichrist is a corporate body from the foundation of the world; your teachings will continue to be as confusing as your last two posts above:

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: (4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

Please allow the prescribed method to understanding the meat of the Word have free course in you or you will not get off the tit no matter how much confusion you post:

Isaiah 28:8-12 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. (9) Whom will he teach knowledge? and whom will he make to understand the message? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts? (10) For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little. (11) Nay, but by men of strange lips and with another tongue will he speak to this people; (12) to whom he said, This is the rest, give ye rest to him that is weary; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

John 8:35-37 And the bondservant abideth not in the house for ever: the son abideth for ever. (36) If therefore the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (37) I know that ye are Abraham's seed: yet ye seek to kill me, because my word hath not free course in you.

1 Corinthians 14:33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 24, 2018

mobius8curve said:

It's fairly clear to me in what you have written here, that you do not seem to understand the following passage:

Romans 11 -

25 For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you may not be wise in yourselves: A hardening in part has happened to Israel, until [WHY "UNTIL"??] the fullness of the Gentiles may come in [G1525 - ('to enter into for an important purpose ')] 26 And so [thus, in this manner] all Israel will be saved, as it has been written:

“The One Delivering will come out of Zion,

He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.

27 And this is the covenant from Me to them,

when I shall take away their sins.”

28 For as regards the gospel, they are enemies on account of you; but as regards election, beloved on account of the patriarchs [/fathers]. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy by the disobedience of these, 31 so these also now have been disobedient for your mercy, so that they also now may have mercy shown them.

mobius8curve · Nov 24, 2018

Let's exam the context as it is very easy to see All Israel includes the wild branches grafted into that ONE olive tree in an order:

Romans 11:25-26 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; (26) and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 11 "sequentially" teaches the ONE olive tree started off with natural branches but most of them were broken off to make room for the Gentiles:

Romans 11:1-12 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (2) God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel: (3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. (4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. (5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. (7) What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: (8) according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day. (9) And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them: (10) Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, And bow thou down their back always. (11) I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. (12) Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace" proves "ALL Israel" can not ever mean all the natural branches but many wild olive branches being the believing Gentiles were and are being grafted into that ONE olive tree:

Romans 11:13-22 But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; (14) if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them. (15) For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? (16) And if the firstfruit is holy, so is the lump: and if the root is holy, so are the branches. (17) But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree; (18) glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee. (19) Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. (20) Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: (21) for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee. (22) Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The "hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come" has been happening since at least Moses and the majority of the Gentiles are being grafted in since the ascension of Jesus Christ to the right hand of the Father!:

Romans 11:23-26 And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. (24) For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (25) For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; (26) and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Once the fullness of the Gentiles are grafted in during the tribulation a remnant of natural branches will again be grafted into the ONE olive tree to complete "ALL Israel":

Romans 9:27-28 And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved: (28) for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

When are the days to be shortened you ask? "Sequentially" speaking it is toward the end of the tribulation that the Father shortens the days for the "elect's sake" who are comprised of both Jews and Gentile believers who make their calling and election sure:

Matthew 24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I prove in this link who the "elect" are if you can get past your fears of opening it:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 24, 2018

^ First of all, "who" are you defining as [the] "Hath God cast away His people?" of Rom11:1; and [the] "God hath not cast away His people whom He foreknew" of Rom11:2? [the context tells us "who"]

mobius8curve · Nov 24, 2018

God has not cast away the corporate body of Israel as He proves to Elijah when God told him He "left for Himself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal":

Romans 11:1-5 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (2) God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel: (3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. (4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. (5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Paul makes it clear that in each generation from at least Moses that until Paul's present day that God always spares a remnant "according to the election of grace":

1 Corinthians 10:1-12 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; (2) and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (3) and did all eat the same spiritual food; (4) and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ. (5) Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. (6) Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. (7) Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. (8) Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. (9) Neither let us make trial of the Lord, as some of them made trial, and perished by the serpents. (10) Neither murmur ye, as some of them murmured, and perished by the destroyer. (11) Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. (12) Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

The "church" has been in a wilderness since the days of Moses and have been carried away into Babylon as we speak:

Acts 7:37-43 This is that Moses, who said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. (38) This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us: (39) to whom our fathers would not be obedient, but thrust him from them, and turned back in their hearts unto Egypt, (40) saying unto Aaron, Make us gods that shall go before us: for as for this Moses, who led us forth out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him. (41) And they made a calf in those days, and brought a sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their hands. (42) But God turned, and gave them up to serve the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, Did ye offer unto me slain beasts and sacrifices Forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel? (43) And ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, And the star of the god Rephan, The figures which ye made to worship them: And I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

But His "elect" people will come out of Babylon:

Revelation 18:1-5 After these things I saw another angel coming down out of heaven, having great authority; and the earth was lightened with his glory. (2) And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird. (3) For by the wine of the wrath of her fornication all the nations are fallen; and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth waxed rich by the power of her wantonness. (4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues: (5) for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 24, 2018

^ Now "who" are you defining as [the] "he" in your reference of Acts 7:37-38 [specifically] in the context of the wider vv.37-40?

mobius8curve · Nov 24, 2018

The "prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear" is none other than Christ the Rock they drank from:

Acts 7:37-40 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. (38) This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: (39) To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, (40) Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; (2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat; (4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

But the majority did not heed the truth even up until Christ's days on earth and even until now:

Luke 16:29-31 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. (31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

John 5:45-47 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. (46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. (47) But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 24, 2018

^ No, the "he" is the one whom Stephen had been speaking of all through his defense from about verse 17 through verse 40: the rejection of Moses, who became their deliverer and ruler; With Moses prefiguring "the Mediator of the New Covenant" (Gal3:19--the law "was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator" [i.e. Moses]… "till the seed should come to whom the promise was made..."). It was Moses who (in 7:38) "received the lively oracles to give unto us: To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him [Moses] from them...". Thus, I believe you are reading the text incorrectly (I do not deny "that Rock was Christ").

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