Is Universalsim in Opposition to the Bible?

[Adstar]

At this present time, to be saved in the here and now, yes "People need to accept the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved".

In the past, before the gospel was presented, that's another question.
And I would add, that in the same way, God may have his own at the present time
that have a saving relationship with him, who have never heard the gospel.

However, this is only a theory. There is not much to base it on, other than
the principle that applies to the Patriarchs. Perhaps they will receive
in the same way they did. How did they from your perspective?

Could I get an acknowledgement from you on that?

Let me post you some scripture::

1 Peter 3 KJV
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Who are the spirits in prison that Jesus went to preach to after He was put to death ? Some of those spirits having been in that prison since the days of Noah...... I put it to you that God went to hell to preach the gospel message to the people who where in hell.. to their spirits the Gospel message of atonement that they had to accept if they where to have eternal life with God in His perfect existence...

So all the spirits since the times of the flood of Noah had to accept the message of the gospel to be Redeemed and that included all the patriarchs..

So i stand again on my belief that Every human being that has ever lived Must accept the Gospel truth of the LORD Jesus Christ to have eternity with God in his perfect eternal existence.. No exceptions..

 

[Adstar]

Were the patriarchs of the old testament saved?

They looked forward to the salvation that was to come upon them by the Blood of Jesus..

 

[Sketch]

So i stand again on my belief that Every human being that has ever lived Must accept the Gospel truth of the LORD Jesus Christ to have eternity with God in his perfect eternal existence.. No exceptions..

You missed my point.
You agree with me that Christ was accepted after these people had died.
What's to say that couldn't happen again? I don't mean on a wholesale level like Universalism.
But on an individual basis with those God has a relationship with outside of Christianity.
I agree that anyone who rejects Christ has no hope of salvation.
But what about those who never had the opportunity?

 

[jaybird88]

What's the difference between universalism and hype grace?

 

[Adstar]

You missed my point.
You agree with me that Christ was accepted after these people had died.
What's to say that couldn't happen again? I don't mean on a wholesale level like Universalism.
But on an individual basis with those God has a relationship with outside of Christianity.
I agree that anyone who rejects Christ has no hope of salvation.
But what about those who never had the opportunity?

My point has been consistent that there is only one Way into eternity and that is by accepting the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. While you have put forward that there is more the one way.. I even put it to you with a Yes or No option for you to reply with.. But you would not agree with my statement..

Universalism is about many different ways to eternity with God.. universalism believes that Hindus and muslims and jews that reject Jesus as Messiah can make it into eternity with God if they are good Hindus or good muslims or good Jews.. Universalism rejects the belief that Acceptance of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ is the Only Way to have eternity with God..

There is no salvational relationship with God outside Christianity.

 

[Sketch]

What's the difference between universalism and hype grace?

What is called "hyper grace" is a Christian belief, although probably just an exaggerated derogatory label.
Universalism claims that all religions lead to God. They use the blind men and the elephant illustration.
Saying the blind men are representative of all the world religions and each describes the part of the elephant they are touching.
Some claim the elephant is like the ear, some like the trunk, others like the tail or the leg.
But ultimately it is all the same animal.

At least they got the blind part right. lol

 

[Sketch]

My point has been consistent that there is only one Way into eternity and that is by accepting the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. While you have put forward that there is more the one way.. I even put it to you with a Yes or No option for you to reply with.. But you would not agree with my statement..

Universalism is about many different ways to eternity with God.. universalism believes that Hindus and muslims and jews that reject Jesus as Messiah can make it into eternity with God if they are good Hindus or good muslims or good Jews.. Universalism rejects the belief that Acceptance of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ is the Only Way to have eternity with God..

There is no salvational relationship with God outside Christianity.

No. I am not saying there is more than one way.
God having a relationship with someone in an isolated situation is not "a way".

 

[JohnRH]

Did Moses have a relationship with God?
Abraham? (shall I continue?)
Did either of them know Jesus before they died?
Where did they end up?

Not biblical? Read it again.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

I appreciate much of what you say in this thread. I believe OT-era saints (who never heard the name of Jesus or of the cross) and infants who die are saved by the one and only Way, Jesus; on the grounds that Jesus is God. The same could be (theoretically) true of those today who haven't heard the name of Jesus, but who respond favorably to the Holy Spirit's conviction of their need for the Savior. God has "determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us". So it's no accident that they live where they live; in fact God put them there for the very reason that they may seek Him and find Him.

But Scripture bears out a "time limit" aspect regarding the opportunity to be saved. Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your heart ... For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found ... Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near ... Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered ... I know you not.

The Lord is plenteous in mercy, and this mercy extends to all during their lifetimes. But when the rich man died, he cried for mercy. The answer was, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things ..." Wisdom said, "Because I have called, and ye refused ... ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh ... Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me. It was too late.

When a person dies in their sins they no longer have hope. Hope is something that occurs in this lifetime (hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.) Proverbs 11:7 says, When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth. Proverbs 14:32 The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death.

I think the same is true of faith. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. Upon death (even for the saint), there's no further need for faith or hope; but love carries on through eternity. A person can only believe (faith) in this lifetime. He that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The believing needs to be done now because it can't be done after death.

 

[tourist]

Jesus as Messiah can make it into eternity with God if they are good Hindus or good muslims or good Jews..

I knew a good Muslim years ago that acted more Christians than most Christians I knew at the time. I met a good Hindu once also. My wife and I were out of town and looking for a church to attend one morning. I did a google search but while the address for the church (Christian) was correct the church was now a Hindu temple. We went in anyway, met a nice Hindu man who ran the place, took off our shoes, did a prayer, and gave the guy a small donation. He was thankful and gave us each an apple and a small portion of tea. Very interesting experience.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If I need help, I'll try to remember not to ask you. (waste of time)

Actually I was trying to get you to think, People who are really open to learning are not afraid to think. (In fact this is how I was shown many things, When we answer the questions ourseves. it seems to help us understand better, because we have to study and make up our own mind)

Who put Jesus on the cross. Who turned him in? Who made it his eternal goal to STOP jesus from assuming role of King in Jerusalem?

How did Jesus put a stop to any more lies about his character, by using the chief of liars actions to prove him th eliar and the theif?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Once again the Patriachs need to accept the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ if they are to be saved..

Could i at lest get that aknowledgement from you...
People need to accept the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved .. Yes or No????

The OT Patrarchs could not believe that, Because they had no idea, It was the mystery hidden from them. So no.

 

[PennEd]

For what it's worth, these are my thoughts on this issue.

NO ONE is getting to Heaven by ANY other means than the Blood of Christ. PERIOD. OT or NT makes no difference. Those faithful in the OT looked forward to their Messiah saving them.

I like the way this guy explains "set the captives free"

Q
After Jesus died, did he descend into Hades to set the captives free? If so, who were the captives?
A
There are two answers to your question, one general and one specific. In Luke 4:18 Jesus said that His mission was to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and to release the oppressed. This is a general reference to freeing all believers from the bondage of sin and the impossible requirements of religious work by paying for our sins on the cross.
Specifically, Matt. 27:52-53 says that after the Resurrection many holy people who had died came out of their tombs, and Ephesians 4:8 tells us that “When He ascended on High He led captives in His train.”
Before the cross, the spirits of all dead people went to Hades, the abode of the dead. After He had paid the price for our sins with his death, Jesus went there too (Luke 23:43). There were two sections there, one called Paradise where believers went and one called Torments where unbelievers still go. Those who had died in faith that He would one day come to redeem them were released from their temporary place in Paradise and when Jesus ascended into Heaven, they went with Him.


I think this principle also applies to the Gentile people of antiquity that followed the Law in their hearts, spoken of in Romans. Jesus
went to preach the Gospel to them in Hades, and I believe they are saved.

I do NOT believe that those who heard and rejected the Gospel while alive, OR those that hadn't heard the Gospel while alive, yet suppressed the the Truth and the clearly seen invisible attributes of God in unrighteousness, will have a second chance after death.

Every time we go down this universalism road, as much as our hearts mourn at the thought of everlasting death, we MUST remember Jesus sweating BLOOD, praying to His Father, that if there be ANY other way, to please take it. And we all know what the Father's silent response meant.

It really borders on trampling on His Blood to think there could possibly be another way.

 

[jaybird88]

What is called "hyper grace" is a Christian belief, although probably just an exaggerated derogatory label.
Universalism claims that all religions lead to God. They use the blind men and the elephant illustration.
Saying the blind men are representative of all the world religions and each describes the part of the elephant they are touching.
Some claim the elephant is like the ear, some like the trunk, others like the tail or the leg.
But ultimately it is all the same animal.

At least they got the blind part right. lol

This is my idea of universalism but not the same as the OP (everyone goes) which sounds like hyper grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is my idea of universalism but not the same as the OP (everyone goes) which sounds like hyper grace.

Hypergrace does not say everyone goes. May I ask wher you came up with this idea?

 

[Lafftur]

I am surprised you said the above in light of the fact that ALL not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire and it is evident by the word of GOD that most will die and remain LOST.......the answer is NO..it is not possible.

IsaiahX said:
I need to say that I do believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father. I wonder if you believe it is possible that all men will come to the Father through Jesus.

Hi dc,

Oh goodness, good catch! I read right over the word "ALL". True, I do not believe ALL will be saved, HOWEVER, I do believe Jesus can get lost souls out of Hades.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi dc,

Oh goodness, good catch! I read right over the word "ALL". True, I do not believe ALL will be saved, HOWEVER, I do believe Jesus can get lost souls out of Hades.

You do? How would he get them out? And if he does, why does he not get everyone out, so no one will go to hell?

 

[Lafftur]

Hello IsaiahX,

Let’s look at what we know:
- Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY to the Father.
- We all need a Savior and Jesus is the Only Savior.
- After death is the judgment, however, it is not the Great White Throne judgement so, perhaps there is still a chance.....
- Jesus has the keys to Hades so He can lock people in or let them out...
- So, if I died and ended up in Hades, the ONLY WAY OUT and to the Father is still Jesus Christ and Him alone.
- Father Abraham cannot cross the great chasm nor anyone, but Jesus can!

So, my answer to your question is YES! I believe it is possible, BUT ONLY WITH JESUS and they have to call on His Name and receive His Blood for forgiveness of their sins and receive His Righteousness which is His Body - the Bread of Life.

I am surprised you said the above in light of the fact that ALL not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire and it is evident by the word of GOD that most will die and remain LOST.......the answer is NO..it is not possible.

IsaiahX said:
I need to say that I do believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father. I wonder if you believe it is possible that all men will come to the Father through Jesus.

Hi dc,

Good catch! I read right over the word "ALL". True, not all will be saved; HOWEVER, I do believe Jesus can get lost souls out of Hades BEFORE the Great White Throne of Judgment.

What do you think about Jesus being able to do that?

 

[Lafftur]

You do? How would he get them out? And if he does, why does he not get everyone out, so no one will go to hell?

Hi eternally-grateful,

Yes, I do believe it is possible for Jesus to get lost souls out of hell because Jesus has the keys to hell and death. No one can cross the great gulf or chasm that Father Abraham talked about in Luke 16:20-31, but I do believe Jesus can and does!

Revelation 1:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi eternally-grateful,

Yes, I do believe it is possible for Jesus to get lost souls out of hell because Jesus has the keys to hell and death. No one can cross the great gulf or chasm that Father Abraham talked about in Luke 16:20-31, but I do believe Jesus can and does!

Revelation 1:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

He has the keys to both, Becauae he is judge (hades) and savior (those who will not be in hades)

How is it fair for Jesus to give people in hades and out, but bot give anyone else an out?

And who in hades would reject him?

 

[Lafftur]

I've been offline a few days, I need to go back and read all of the posts to this thread! LOl! This is a great topic! BRB!