Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

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Quantrill

Quantrill

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Sep 20, 2018
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John146 said:
Again, no one looked forward to the cross. They believed in what God had said at the time and then obeyed Him in what He said. Do you really believe they put their trust in the cross of Jesus before it happened? You say they put their faith in God? For what? Isn't the gospel we trust in for salvation the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
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Faith has always been directed toward Jesus Christ. In the Old Testament it was always toward the seed promises of Him Who was to come. In our day it is looking back at He who has come.

Adam and Eve believed God concerning those promises of the seed to come. Abraham believed the promise of the seed to come when He believed God concerning the miraculous birth of Isaac in whom God said would have the promises. Those promises involved He who was to come, Jesus Christ.

Quantrill
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#802
#802
John146 said:
Again, no one looked forward to the cross. They believed in what God had said at the time and then obeyed Him in what He said. Do you really believe they put their trust in the cross of Jesus before it happened? You say they put their faith in God? For what? Isn't the gospel we trust in for salvation the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
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Did I say they put their faith in the cross?

Why is it people seem to have listening probems lately??
 
GodsGrace101

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
#803
Sep 14, 2018
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#803
John146 said:
Again, no one looked forward to the cross. They believed in what God had said at the time and then obeyed Him in what He said. Do you really believe they put their trust in the cross of Jesus before it happened? You say they put their faith in God? For what? Isn't the gospel we trust in for salvation the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
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The above is for Eternally Grateful.
But I'm pretty amazed by what you've stated.
Trust God for WHAT?
Salvation, maybe....

What do YOU believe saved persons in the O.T.??
 
J

John146

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#806
Jan 13, 2016
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GodsGrace101 said:
The above is for Eternally Grateful.
But I'm pretty amazed by what you've stated.
Trust God for WHAT?
Salvation, maybe....

What do YOU believe saved persons in the O.T.??
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I don't believe they were saved like you and I. I believe they had to live by their own faith in what God had said. We live by the faith of Christ. They were not born again, redeemed, made a new creature in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit, etc...They were kept safe in a place called Abraham's bosom upon death until Jesus could set them free.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#807
#807
John146 said:
I don't believe they were saved like you and I. I believe they had to live by their own faith in what God had said. We live by the faith of Christ. They were not born again, redeemed, made a new creature in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit, etc...They were kept safe in a place called Abraham's bosom upon death until Jesus could set them free.
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How were they saved by the law and sacrifices.. or were they.
 
J

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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eternally-gratefull said:
How were they saved by the law and sacrifices.. or were they.
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Again, I don't believe they were saved like you and I. If so, they would have immediately been in the presence of the Lord upon death. Walking in the commandments of the Lord, they were found blameless. Their sins were covered but not washed away. What do you make of the following:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It is no more of works? Did works play a part before? The Jews rejected the righteousness found in Jesus Christ. They continued to seek their own righteousness through the law which could never take away sins.

Romans 10
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

One was righteous through the law, but it was not God's righteousness through Jesus Christ.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#809
Jan 13, 2016
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#809
John146 said:
Again, I don't believe they were saved like you and I. If so, they would have immediately been in the presence of the Lord upon death. Walking in the commandments of the Lord, they were found blameless. Their sins were covered but not washed away. What do you make of the following:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It is no more of works? Did works play a part before? The Jews rejected the righteousness found in Jesus Christ. They continued to seek their own righteousness through the law which could never take away sins.

Romans 10
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

One was righteous through the law, but it was not God's righteousness through Jesus Christ.
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Also, Christ ended the law for righteousness sake. Keeping the law made one righteous but it was not the righteousness of God.
 
GodsGrace101

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
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Sep 14, 2018
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#810
John146 said:
I don't believe they were saved like you and I. I believe they had to live by their own faith in what God had said. We live by the faith of Christ. They were not born again, redeemed, made a new creature in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit, etc...They were kept safe in a place called Abraham's bosom upon death until Jesus could set them free.
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I'm not sure what you mean by "their own faith".
They did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them as we do,,you've correctly stated this.
The ones that had FAITH in God went to be in Hades in Abraham's Bossom as Luke 16 states.
Jesus set them free at His death, this is all correct.

I can tell you for sure that they were not saved by following the law since the Israelites could not keep the law and many died in their sin, not having faith in God.

The law was given for different reasons...which you might know of course.

Also, what you're speaking of is the difference between the Old or Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant. The 10 commandments still have to be kept, but NOW we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to help us keep them and our belief and trust in Jesus to cover for our sins and thus, we are now living under grace.
 
GodsGrace101

GodsGrace101

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#811
Sep 14, 2018
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#811
John146 said:
Also, Christ ended the law for righteousness sake. Keeping the law made one righteous but it was not the righteousness of God.
Click to expand...
IF one was righteous, he was righteous for God.
We get mixed up with self-righteousness....where we think we could please God by our very actions instead of by our faith in Him.

Righteous just means: Right with God.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
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#812
John146 said:
I don't believe they were saved like you and I. I believe they had to live by their own faith in what God had said. We live by the faith of Christ. They were not born again, redeemed, made a new creature in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit, etc...They were kept safe in a place called Abraham's bosom upon death until Jesus could set them free.
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Exactly, this is what scripture tells us.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#813
Jan 13, 2016
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#813
GodsGrace101 said:
IF one was righteous, he was righteous for God.
We get mixed up with self-righteousness....where we think we could please God by our very actions instead of by our faith in Him.

Righteous just means: Right with God.
Click to expand...
I'll give you a couple of examples from Scripture:

Luke 1 (under the law)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#814
#814
John146 said:
Again, I don't believe they were saved like you and I. If so, they would have immediately been in the presence of the Lord upon death. Walking in the commandments of the Lord, they were found blameless. Their sins were covered but not washed away. What do you make of the following:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It is no more of works? Did works play a part before? The Jews rejected the righteousness found in Jesus Christ. They continued to seek their own righteousness through the law which could never take away sins.

Romans 10
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

One was righteous through the law, but it was not God's righteousness through Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
Make it, it was ever of works. Jesus came and died in vein.

Why would he come to suffer so great a sacrifice. If we could save ourselves by works?

If they could do it. We could do it..

The same jews crucified christ, because they tried to establish their own righteousness (the law did not convince them they were sinners. They THOUGHT thy were innocent according to the law.

If your right, about the law saving them, they were right, and Christ was wrong. And I am following the wrong God.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#815
#815
John146 said:
Also, Christ ended the law for righteousness sake. Keeping the law made one righteous but it was not the righteousness of God.
Click to expand...
It made them righteous maybe according to men. But according to God and his standard. It proved how unrighteous we were.
Moses made it clear. Perfection was required. Anyone who did not fulfill that standard was guilty and according to the law. Cursed.

Thats why Jesus came in the first place To do wjat we could not do.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#816
#816
GodsGrace101 said:
IF one was righteous, he was righteous for God.
We get mixed up with self-righteousness....where we think we could please God by our very actions instead of by our faith in Him.

Righteous just means: Right with God.
Click to expand...
Righteous is actually a legal term. It is in essence the same greek word as the word translated justify.

When one is brought before a judge charged with a crime. If they are found guilty they are declaired righteous. Or a term we understand more. Justified.

If one is found guilty, and someone pays their debt (redemption or atonement) we are considered righteous, or justified, in spite of the fact we are guilty.

That is what we are. Considered the righteousness of Chist (his innocence is given to us as our penalty is payed by him) and why our justification is only by grace, because we of our own merit are cursed.. Guilty as charged, deserve eternal death.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#817
#817
John146 said:
I'll give you a couple of examples from Scripture:

Luke 1 (under the law)
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us.
Click to expand...
So if Christ did not die, they would be in heaven? Because they were not of those who sinned and fell short?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
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Jan 13, 2016
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#818
eternally-gratefull said:
Make it, it was ever of works. Jesus came and died in vein.

Why would he come to suffer so great a sacrifice. If we could save ourselves by works?

If they could do it. We could do it..

The same jews crucified christ, because they tried to establish their own righteousness (the law did not convince them they were sinners. They THOUGHT thy were innocent according to the law.

If your right, about the law saving them, they were right, and Christ was wrong. And I am following the wrong God.
Click to expand...
That's the point. The law could never take away sins, only the shed blood of the Lamb of God. Those OT saints were not absent from the body and present with the Lord in heaven. The law couldn't provide that. But with those sacrifices, they were covered until Christ set them free.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#819
Jan 13, 2016
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#819
eternally-gratefull said:
So if Christ did not die, they would be in heaven? Because they were not of those who sinned and fell short?
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Again, they would have remained eternally unsaved in Abraham's bosom. Only the shed blood of Christ could deliver them.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#820
#820
John146 said:
Again, they would have remained eternally unsaved in Abraham's bosom. Only the shed blood of Christ could deliver them.
Click to expand...
So the law had nothing to do with their salvation..
 
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