No Eternal Security = No Salvation?

[rlm68]

Jude 1:20-21 contrast the believer with those described in vss 16-19 (murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage ... mockers who walk after their own ungodly lusts ... separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit).

Then we have the believer described (building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life).


Do you believe you build yourself up, pray in the Holy Spirit, keep yourself in the love of God, look for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life apart from God who keeps you from falling and Who will present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy?

In John 15, Jesus tells us without Him we can do N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

I trust God to keep [me] from falling more than I trust myself to keep myself from falling.





Did you know that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and to live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world? Check out Titus 2:11-12:

Titus 2:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.


And please also note vs 14 ... it is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who redeems us from all iniquity and purifies us to Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Do you believe you are zealous of good works apart from Him?

I never once claimed you can earn salvation. I have stated however, if you do actually love God, then you will make time, effort, and devotion for Him because you care. So by the act of caring, you are actually working (putting effort) into your walk with God!! But, that work/effort is not what saves you.

I was just pointing out that specific verse because Jude is the brother of Yeshua (Christ), and this is what he claims.

 

[CS1]

The topic is OSAS

And no you were not clear. You seemed to go in circles and never answer the question.

I did not ask you why about people being banned, or the rest of the stuff you tried to say it was.

I asked you when the TOPIC was banned (the word before shoudl have been assumed since I was aksing past tense)

So for the third(or is it the forth) time, when was it banned before? (I think it was quite clear in my origional question that is what I asked.)

Do you have an issue with me? It seems every time I respond to you you come off defensive and we never seem to get anywhere but go in circles. Why is this? I asked a simple question. It shudl not take us this long to resolve the question.

bye bye

 

[PennEd]

You asked:

Are those that don't believe in eternal security saved?

Eternal security equals doctrine.

How does it not answer the question?

What is the Gospel that saves?

I thought this question was clear enough that it didn't need clarification, but apparently it does. So I'll rephrase it so it's clearer. Really don't understand why I have to, but here goes:


Have those that say they put their trust in Jesus Christ for Salvation, yet believe there is something THEY can do that could make them unsaved, in reality mean they DIDN'T put their full trust in Jesus, and because of that, aren't saved?

There really hasn't been a definitive answer, outside of some are and some aren't. It's NOT about the doctrine. It's about belief.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I will tell you because people like some who are hear now name call, attack, insult, and become overly rude. I did not think it would have to be drawn out in great detail that well-known truth of any topic that has been banned in the past. Yet the very same people bully on this topic as others topics. You been here for five years? You mean to tell me you have not seen a topic banned or closed due to rudeness and insults then the same topic started again and has not been removed? You make a valid point maybe the mod's we should have banned it two years ago huh? Thank you for your input I will take it under consideration

Well it finally comes out.

I have seen one topic banned (and not really the topic itself) that was hypergrace.

I have seen MANY THREADS closed. (Closed and banned are two different things, topic and threads are two different things)

If you had said this when I first asked you. All this infighting could have been averted..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

bye bye

Until next time

I still think you think I have something against you. So I am sure next time I ask you a simple question. The same will happen.

Which is sad.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I thought this question was clear enough that it didn't need clarification, but apparently it does. So I'll rephrase it so it's clearer. Really don't understand why I have to, but here goes:


Have those that say they put their trust in Jesus Christ for Salvation, yet believe there is something THEY can do that could make them unsaved, in reality mean they DIDN'T put their full trust in Jesus, and because of that, aren't saved?

There really hasn't been a definitive answer, outside of some are and some aren't. It's NOT about the doctrine. It's about belief.

as a person who has faith in the promises of God (eternal life) I think a person who thinks loss of faith can cause loss of salvation may be saved, We both believe the person will not be saved n the end. One just thinks it was lost. While I think they never had it

However, I have been told by a few that even this in my thinking is dangerous..

As far as losing it because of sin, or lack of works. I do not see how they can be saved, any more than Isreal was saved by trying to add works of the law to grace. What makes them any different.

Of course this is my view..I know not everyone agrees.. and thats fine

 

[Sketch]

This is a sincere question to mostly those who already believe they are eternally secure (OSAS), and cannot lose their Salvation because Jesus is the One who gave it to them and keeps it secure.

I know there are umpteen OSAS threads, and that can certainly and most likely will be discussed here as EVERY thread eventually boils down to that.

But what I'm asking is are those that don't believe in eternal security saved? I honestly don't know, but would like to hear your thoughts on this issue. At one time I thought you COULD lose your Salvation. I knew who Jesus is (God in the flesh) and what He has done (die to pay for our sin and resurrected to life after 3 days) but also thought that I could lose that Salvation for "willing sin" or disobedience in not totally following Him.

Others here believe they could lose their Salvation for additional reasons. So my question is does thinking you can lose your Salvation equate to NOT being saved?

May God Bless you all!

Belief in OSAS is not the basis for salvation.

You are correct in what you stated as a basis for salvation.
If someone believes that, they are saved whether they think they have eternal security or not.
A belief in eternal security (or OSAS) is not the basis for salvation.
Thus, to not believe in OSAS is not equal to not being saved. (nice triple negative)

That being said, there is another side to this.
If a person doesn't believe in OSAS because they believe you can't be saved in the here and now,
then there may be problems. What then is the basis of their salvation if they can't be saved in the here and now?
If the basis is a works religion, then you have to evaluate from there. That's my take.
Watch out... here come the evil thumbs, (down)

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I never once claimed you can earn salvation.

Apologies if it appeared I stated you claimed salvation may be earned. that was not my intent.

I have stated however, if you do actually love God, then you will make time, effort, and devotion for Him because you care. So by the act of caring, you are actually working (putting effort) into your walk with God!! But, that work/effort is not what saves you.

I was just pointing out that specific verse because Jude is the brother of Yeshua (Christ), and this is what he claims.

I believe any "good works" we do result from our having been born again. Eph 2:10 tells us we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I also believe the words of Jesus ... "without Me, you can do nothing"

 

[rlm68]

Apologies if it appeared I stated you claimed salvation may be earned. that was not my intent.





I believe any "good works" we do result from our having been born again. Eph 2:10 tells us we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I also believe the words of Jesus ... "without Me, you can do nothing"

No worries, and AMEN!!

 

[Ariel82]

I thought this question was clear enough that it didn't need clarification, but apparently it does. So I'll rephrase it so it's clearer. Really don't understand why I have to, but here goes:


Have those that say they put their trust in Jesus Christ for Salvation, yet believe there is something THEY can do that could make them unsaved, in reality mean they DIDN'T put their full trust in Jesus, and because of that, aren't saved?

There really hasn't been a definitive answer, outside of some are and some aren't. It's NOT about the doctrine. It's about belief.

Again I reply, no.

All it takes to save someone is childlike faith in the perfect Savior Jesus Christ.

Sometimes it takes years for people to actually believe that GOD loves THEM enough to die for them. They may understand it intelligently but not believe in their hearts God has truly adopted them.

Look at abused children who are adopted into loving homes and see how long it takes for them to trust and truly believe they won't be kicked to the curb if they do something wrong.

This world and the demonic controlled people hurt and abuse each other that what little trust there is it's faint.

What love and goodness and light in this world comes from God and His moving in our hearts. Trust is hard.

However if a soul in their heart trust and has faith in Jesus as their Savior, then God will work in their lives to see it to fruition and complete salvation.

I don't know how I can explain it more clearly.

All it takes is a single spark to start a fire.

 

[OneFaith]

Look at the verse.

Work out YOUR SALVATION.

Salvation is something they had. It is not something they were trying to earn or work for.

In the greek, the word work out was a mining term, It was used of moners who were mining for things that had great value, the gems and metals were already their, they were not working to make them, they were working to make them usefull.

Paul is telling us, Take our salvation, and work it out so it is not hidden inside, but actually made useful to the world..

Paul always feared he woudl not do enough to help people, or do something which would have caused him his testimony to be shattered to the point he was no longer trusted.

Thats exactly how is is telling us to be. To fear lest we burn out our light, because people are watching.

No, Paul said even he could get disqualified for the prize. You are twisting scripture to mean what you want it to.

 

[Ariel82]

The road may not be pretty and there may be many course corrections and chastening by God. However God never abandons any of His children. In our hearts the Holy Spirit testifies to this truth even if we can't always hear it because of the noise.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, Paul said even he could get disqualified for the prize. You are twisting scripture to mean what you want it to.

Salvation is not a Prize, It is a gift.

Stop trying to make a grace gift, an earned prize

I did not twist anything, I interpreted it as it was written.. WRK OUT YOUR SALVATION.

If your not yet saved, or working for it. It is not yours yet..

 

[OneFaith]

Salvation is not a Prize, It is a gift.

Stop trying to make a grace gift, an earned prize

I did not twist anything, I interpreted it as it was written.. WRK OUT YOUR SALVATION.

If your not yet saved, or working for it. It is not yours yet..

"We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God." Acts 14:22

 

[CS1]

Well it finally comes out.

I have seen one topic banned (and not really the topic itself) that was hypergrace.

I have seen MANY THREADS closed. (Closed and banned are two different things, topic and threads are two different things)

If you had said this when I first asked you. All this infighting could have been averted..

I do not have to say what you want nor listen to you. You sir will come to know what banning is very well.

good day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God." Acts 14:22

I agree, because we are strangers in a strange land. We are daily in enemy territory and with that goes many hardships. We live in a fallen world. That alone will bring much heart ache.

But what we can not do, Let alone ever do, Is earn our way to eternal life with Christ in heaven by any thing we do or do not do.

A good friend of mine always said every morning he woke up and was not in hell, was a GOOD day,

Not only does this help him look at life in perspective but it is true, Every moment of every day we deserve hell. The only thing keeping us from hell is God, holding us in his hands with His grace and mercy, keeping his promise to be an abba father, not a spirit which we have to fear.
It also keeps us humble. Not allowing any self righteousness. If we look at the NT, We do not see the apostles going around boasting how good they are. Paul did it once, but only as a means to defend his character from the jews trying to destroy him, As he said, he was blameless according to the law. (Ie no one could accuse him of breaking the law) Yet he also said he is chief among ALL sinners.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do not have to say what you want nor listen to you. You sir will come to know what banning is very well.

good day.

Lol. you still cannot admit you made a mistake. I still wonder what I have done to upset you so much?

Once again. You said the TOPIC was banned. (A fact which is not true)

Your did not say people were banned and threads were closed because of fighting on both sides, (a fact that is true)

So a few people questioned what you meant so you could explain. (Just like when someone questioned me when I mistakingly said OT saints where saved the moment they trusted Christ which was a mistake on my part.. Thank God people were not afraid to question something I said.. )

Again, If you would have just said that, Non of this would have happened.

No, You do not have to listen to me, or anyone else. And I never stated otherwise, And the fact you used this strawman is.. you know not even worth saying,

It does nto matter, you should be able to admit when you have made a mistake..And then if I kept ragging on you. Then you would have a reason to question my motives and judge me or anyone else of simply attacking you.

And now you threaten to have me banned. Way to go man Way to go!

 

[CS1]

Lol. you still cannot admit you made a mistake. I still wonder what I have done to upset you so much?

Once again. You said the TOPIC was banned. (A fact which is not true)

Your did not say people were banned and threads were closed because of fighting on both sides, (a fact that is true)

So a few people questioned what you meant so you could explain. (Just like when someone questioned me when I mistakingly said OT saints where saved the moment they trusted Christ which was a mistake on my part.. Thank God people were not afraid to question something I said.. )

Again, If you would have just said that, Non of this would have happened.

No, You do not have to listen to me, or anyone else. And I never stated otherwise, And the fact you used this strawman is.. you know not even worth saying,

It does nto matter, you should be able to admit when you have made a mistake..And then if I kept ragging on you. Then you would have a reason to question my motives and judge me or anyone else of simply attacking you.

And now you threaten to have me banned. Way to go man Way to go!

I would not admit anything to an inward eyeball, self-indulged, out of context taking person that you are. To do so would only rub your overly self-gratifying ego. In addition, you too make judgment calls on me while forgetting your own foolishness and rudeness on this very thread. So I will deal with you as it should be done. You question ones faith and love for God yet you are the very kind of person you bring accusations against. Hypocrite. And I have the proof in this very thread. Now you have a choice please move on or move out . The bounce you hear is the ball in your court. I am done with you and this topic. God bless.

 

[PennEd]

This thread was in no way intended to elicit such vitriol. I tried to mitigate that by stating up front my question was intended for those that believe they are eternally secure because of what Christ has done. Eternal Security, OSAS, or whatever name you'd like to call it. Obviously very naive of me to think those on the opposite side of this issue would simply choose to not click on it. As I pointed out there are literally hundreds of threads on this subject matter with equal, or even more animosity. Something about this question really touched a nerve with some.

It remains an important quest to me, as I stated several times, that at one time I ALSO was on the other side of this issue.

I apologize for starting it, and ask that it be discontinued. If not, I for one will not be responding to it any longer. Be Blessed.

 

[Jackson123]

I believe God ask our partisipation to maintain our salvation

This is the instruction

Mark 13

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.