Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

[Endoscopy]

Thank God for the above truths.....

Paul described his continual fight between his mind set on what is righteous and the law of sin in him. The fact that he succombs to that law too often. He then gives thanks to God for Jesus taking away the penalty of his sin. That is the fight all of us face. I thank God for the grace he gives us to have faith in Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace101]

No. Many people believe in jesus, but they have no faith in jesus at all. We saw it in the jews. We see it in many so called churches today.

They have mental agreement that Jesus is who he says he was, He died on the cross. And he was ressurected.

But when it comes to having faith (faith is a word which your correct is a noun, It has with it the form of someone you TRUST, Someone you have ASSURANCE IN, someone you have coviction in. Believe in its basic form just means you agree, but you can agree with somene yet not be convicted, or be assured of have faith in them

There are many examples of this, One example shared with me a long time ago may help you.

A man runs a tightrope across the niagra falls from the american to the canadian side. He takes a wheelbarrow and puts 200 pounds worth of rock in it (the weight of a man) and walks across the rope numerous times, He gets a crowd and they are amazed at his bravery and what he is doing. He keeps asking the crowd if they believe he could take a man across in the wheelbarrow. Every time everyone raises their hand. Finally he stops. And asks for volunteers. No one raises their hands.

Why is this? They all claim they believe he can do it and he proved by what they have seen him do that he can, The problem is, If he fails it is instant death, No one is convicted, has assurance or has faith he can do it with THEM in place of the rocks.

Belief (noun) does not always equal faith (noun)

We saw this with the jews. Jesus healed the sick, The lame walked, the blind saw. He even rose a man from the dead. The believed in him, they welcomed him to jeruslam as king.

A week later they crucified him, why? They believed the things he did, but they were not convicted in what he said, they had no faith in him..

James gave us example in his epistle. People who CLAIM to have faith, but have no works. They are put in the same category of demons who also BELIEVE. But they are told their faith is dead (they have no faith. Just mental agreement or belief) and were asked, can this lack of faith (belief only) save you?

Just because someone says they beieve, does not mean they have faith.

Hi EG, you posted a good post but there's something here that is not correct.

It's the way you use the word "believe". You use it as we do in this modern day and age..
to believe with our mind...to agree with our mind... It never goes from the mind to the heart.

The way "believe" was used in the Greek and in Jesus' time is not how we use it today and how you're using it...

When Jesus said we are to believe in Him and the One who sent Him, He means with our heart, NOT with our mind. He means that we are also to have faith and we are to trust the one who sent Him, and we are to trust Him, and we are to follow Him and obey what He teaches.

This is what believe means in the way it was used in Jesus' time.

The way you're describing it makes you right, like for instance the analogy of the guy crossing Niagra Falls...but it's not how Jesus meant it.

You could check this out...

part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace101]

part 2 of 2

Result 1- Belief, Believe, Believers
A. Verbs

1. pisteuo
2. peitho

B. Noun

1. pistis

C. Adjective

1. pistos

A1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Verb] pisteuo "to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the Apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord's first use of the verb, see John 1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated "believers."



See also : pisteuo



A2. Belief, Believe, Believers [Verb] peitho "to persuade," in the Middle and Passive Voices signifies "to suffer oneself to be persuaded," e.g., Luke 16:31; Heb 13:18; it is sometimes translated "believe" in the RV, but not in Acts 17:4, RV, "were persuaded," and Acts 27:11, "gave (more) heed;" in Acts 28:24, "believed." See AGREE, ASSURE, OBEY, PERSUADE, TRUST, YIELD.

Note: For apisteo, the negative of pisteuo, and apeitheo, the negative of peitho, see DISBELIEVE, DISOBEDIENT.






B1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Noun] pistis "faith," is translated "belief" in Rom 10:17; 2 Thess 2:13.Its chief significance is a conviction respecting God and His Word and the believer's relationship to Him.

Note: In 1 Cor 9:5 the word translated "believer" (RV), is adelphe, "a sister," so 1 Cor 7:15; Rom 16:1;James 2:15, used, in the spiritual sense, of one connected by the tie of the Christian faith.






C1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Adjective] pistos
(a) in the Active sense means "believing, trusting;"
(b) in the Passive sense, "trusty, faithful, trustworthy." It is translated "believer" in 2 Cor 6:15; "them that believe" in 1 Tim 4:12, RV (AV, "believers"); in 1 Tim 5:16, "if any woman that believeth," lit., "if any believing woman." So in 1 Tim 6:2, "believing masters." In 1 Pet 1:21 the RV, following the most authentic mss., gives the noun form, "are believers in God" (AV, "do believe in God"). In John 20:27 it is translated "believing."

It is best understood with significance C1(a), e.g., in Gal 3:9; Acts 16:1; 2 Cor 6:15; Titus 1:6; it has significance C1(b), e.g., in 1 Thess 5:24; 2 Thess 3:3 (see Notes on Thess. p. 211, and Gal. p. 126, by Hogg and Vine). See FAITHFUL, SURE.

Notes:
(1) The corresponding negative verb is apisteo, 2 Tim 2:13, AV, "believe not" RV, "are faithless," in contrast to the statement "He abideth faithful."

(2) The negative noun apistia, "unbelief," is used twice in Matthew (Matt 13:58; Matt 17:20), three times in Mark (Mark 6:6; Mark 9:24; Mark 16:14), four times in Romans (Rom 3:3; Rom 4:20; Rom 11:20,23); elsewhere in 1 Tim 1:13; Heb 3:12,19.
(3) The adjective apistos is translated "unbelievers" in 1 Cor 6:6; 2 Cor 6:14; in 2 Cor 6:15, RV, "unbeliever" (AV, "infidel"); so in 1 Tim 5:8; "unbelieving" in 1 Cor 7:12-15; 1 Cor 14:22-24; 2 Cor 4:4;Titus 1:15; Rev 21:8; "that believe not" in 1 Cor 10:27. In the Gospels it is translated "faithless" in Matt 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; John 20:27, but in Luke 12:46, RV, "unfaithful," AV, "unbelievers." Once it is translated "incredible," Acts 26:8. See FAITHLESS, INCREDIBLE, UNBELIEVER.




source: http://gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?search=BELIEVE&dict=vine&lang=english
(Vine's Greek New Testament)

 

[dcontroversal]

Hey D,
Why would I refuse something that is spiritually sound?
What I think is that we might be getting works mixed in with eternal security.
Maybe you don't believe in works (the same way I do) because you believe we could never lose our salvation -- no matter what.

Sure. This is why you say works don't KEEP us saved...because you believe in eternal security.

Of course, this would be a different discussion.

It is impossible for works to do that which has already been done eternally.......by grace through faith......this is what you fail to grasp......

Was saved
Am saved now
Continuing to be saved into the future

A present CONTINUING result from a PAST COMPLETED ACTION........PERFECT TENSE VERBS.............

Describe the following terms..

SAVED to the UTTERMOST
KEPT by the power of GOD through FAITH<---the FAITH HE initiates and FINISHES
THE gifts of GOD are IRREVOCABLE
ETERNAL/EVERLASTING LIFE

The salvation that you espouse, that can be lost or forfeit CONTRADICTS the 4 above.......your problem is simple....you conflate numerous biblical truths into one concept tied to salvation and this is where you miss the mark FRAN

 

[GodsGrace101]

The food which endures to eternal life. That whole conversation jesus has with the people he fed the day before. Vs 22- 70. Jesus promised many things all through that conversation which unless he lied. Assures eternal life to whoever believes.

OK. I'll go through it right now.
I'll only post the verses where Jesus gives a promise or a command.

John 6
verse 27 Don't work for material goods, work for heavenly goals which will endure forever.

verse 29 Believe in whom God has sent...the type of believe I just posted above.

verse 33 The manna God gives, is life to the world.

verse 35 Jesus says "I am the bread of life, he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."

verse 37 he who goes to Jesus shall in no way be cast out. Jesus refuses no one. ALL the Father gives to Him...Jews, Gentiles, sinners, etc.

verse 39 Jesus will lose nothing of what the Father has given to Him...He will raise IT up on the last day. (not WHO) **

verse 40 Everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life and they will be raised up on the last day (by Jesus because Jesus is the life). Please note that beholds and believes are in the present tense...one must behold (accept) Jesus and believe (with the heart) in Him when they die.

** Jesus was sent by God for a specific purpose...to establish God's kingdom on earth and to teach us how to get to heaven. Jesus did all of this just as the Father wanted Him to. At the end of time Jesus will put everything in place perfectly, He will raise IT up on the last day, what God wants -- the new earth and He will return everyone to their body -- the resurrection. Body restored to soul and spirit.
IT will be raised on the last day --- what God wanted.

IT is translated as HIM in some versions of the bible. However, it remains true that in the end, all will be reunited in body.

If you notice in John 6:54 it's repeated that whoever EATS Jesus' flesh and DRINKS His blood will have eternal life. Again, in the present tense.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are many people who believe "mental assent" that Jesus is the Son of God and that his death, burial and resurrection "happened" yet they are not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and instead turn to supplements and are trusting in works for salvation.

YES! And thus prove they really do nt have faith in Christ, but faith in those supliments. Be it the law, Christian tradition, Christian sacraments, or any kind of christisn work. (Even following the ten commands) or I have to keep my faith by my own power. God is not obligated to keep proving he is faithful by doing works in my life, I must work at keeping faith myself by my own power.

Their faith is in reality those works. Not christ.

 

[Endoscopy]

The parable of the Unmerciful Servant

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. “The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.” Matthew 18:21-35

This concept of forgiving those who do you evil gets hard when it caused destruction of family. I lived that. My wife and I adopted 4 children and their birth father who in court said he wanted nothing to do with them ended up causing 3 of them to run away. In the end we had to give up those 3. Later all 3 ran away from him and ended up being psychopaths. They had no empathy for others and were very manipulative to get what they wanted to the extent of stealing and destruction of property of others including their siblings. 2 ended up in jail 1 or more times. Seeing this happen caused my wife, remaining daughter and me great pain. The blessing of the remaining daughter helped us through this pain. It took me months to forgive him.

 

[GodsGrace101]

It is impossible for works to do that which has already been done eternally.......by grace through faith......this is what you fail to grasp......

Was saved
Am saved now
Continuing to be saved into the future

A present CONTINUING result from a PAST COMPLETED ACTION........PERFECT TENSE VERBS.............

Describe the following terms..

SAVED to the UTTERMOST
KEPT by the power of GOD through FAITH<---the FAITH HE initiates and FINISHES
THE gifts of GOD are IRREVOCABLE
ETERNAL/EVERLASTING LIFE

The salvation that you espouse, that can be lost or forfeit CONTRADICTS the 4 above.......your problem is simple....you conflate numerous biblical truths into one concept tied to salvation and this is where you miss the mark FRAN

Let me ask you this...

What if someone is born again and saved right now.
Sometime down the line, maybe after years, he decides that Christianity is all fake and nonsense and he decides to leave the faith and might even be mad at God for some reason that caused this change.

Is that person still saved?

 

[Sketch]

@preacher4truth
You seem to be harboring some bitterness.
How many Friendly hearts did I give you yesterday in place of Thumbs Down?
And how does that compare with your behavior today?
Is that preaching truth by your actions?

 

[dcontroversal]

Let me ask you this...

What if someone is born again and saved right now.
Sometime down the line, maybe after years, he decides that Christianity is all fake and nonsense and he decides to leave the faith and might even be mad at God for some reason that caused this change.

Is that person still saved?

We have covered this Fran and ONLY 1 of 2 possibilities exist.....either they were NEVER really of US (SAVED) or the following......

IF<---->WE BELIEVE NOT, HE abides faithful because HE cannot DENY HIMSELF

That is written unto BELIEVERS

JESUS will REMAIN FAITHFUL to HIS PROMISES because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF

HE begins the work of faith in US
HE will FINISH and COMPLETE the work of FAITH he began IN US
HIS righteousness has BEEN IMPUTED by the FAITH HE BEGAN IN US
HIS BLOOD has BEEN applied by the FAITH HE BEGAN IN US
WE ARE justified by HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS that HAS BEEN IMPUTED by the FAITH HE BEGAN IN US

At the end of the day...regardless of all the bantering.....

THE GIFTS of GOD are IRREVOCABLE <----SALVATION IS A GIFT

AFTER salvation any and ALL scenarios in a believers life will determine REWARD (PAY or WAGES) for service rendered or a lack thereof.

 

[GodsGrace101]

There are many people who believe "mental assent" that Jesus is the Son of God and that his death, burial and resurrection "happened" yet they are not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and instead turn to supplements and are trusting in works for salvation.

Yes, the word translated faith is the Greek word "pistis" which means persuasion, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; trust, confidence.

The word translated believe is from the greek word "pisteuō" which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

*The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31.

Amen! In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God." but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

works do not save. I don't know anyone who thinks they do.

But they are a SIGN of salvation.
So, as a consequence....
if there are NO WORKS, it is evident that one cannot be saved.

Simple.

As James said:
Faith without works is a dead faith.
James 2.17, 20
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

James says that faith without works is useless.
A simple statement, easily understood.
If we say we have faith...we should also do God's works.
Colossians 3:17
17Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Paul described his continual fight between his mind set on what is righteous and the law of sin in him. The fact that he succombs to that law too often. He then gives thanks to God for Jesus taking away the penalty of his sin. That is the fight all of us face. I thank God for the grace he gives us to have faith in Jesus.

But the question is: Is faith in Jesus necessary to be saved?

 

[GodsGrace101]

We have covered this Fran and ONLY 1 of 2 possibilities exist.....either they were NEVER really of US (SAVED) or the following......

IF<---->WE BELIEVE NOT, HE abides faithful because HE cannot DENY HIMSELF

That is written unto BELIEVERS

JESUS will REMAIN FAITHFUL to HIS PROMISES because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF

HE begins the work of faith in US
HE will FINISH and COMPLETE the work of FAITH he began IN US
HIS righteousness has BEEN IMPUTED by the FAITH HE BEGAN IN US
HIS BLOOD has BEEN applied by the FAITH HE BEGAN IN US
WE ARE justified by HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS that HAS BEEN IMPUTED by the FAITH HE BEGAN IN US

At the end of the day...regardless of all the bantering.....

THE GIFTS of GOD are IRREVOCABLE <----SALVATION IS A GIFT

AFTER salvation any and ALL scenarios in a believers life will determine REWARD (PAY or WAGES) for service rendered or a lack thereof.

It might be bantering D, but some are reading along and getting a very incorrect message that could lead them straight to hell.

The bible is chock full of scripture that says that we will not enter into heaven UNLESS we obey JESUS' laws and remain faithful to Him. All the N.T. writers confirm this.

What you're stating is that we could live a life of sin and still enter heaven...this hardly even requires scripture...it's so unbiblical.

I said. A LIFE OF SIN,,,,,,,NOT sin. We all sin.

In Mathew 7:23 Jesus tell us that He will as anyone who practices lawlessness to depart from Him.
Practice lawlessness means not to practice law.

Mathew 10:33 Jesus tells us that whoever denies Him before men, HE will deny before God Father --- this is in direct contradiction to what you've stated in your post.

Mathew 12:31, 32 Jesus says that any sin will be forgiven, but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will NOT be forgiven. In the scenario I presented to you, that person is blaspheming the Holy Spirit by DENYING Him, and yet YOU say that person is still saved. Once again, clearly going against what Jesus Himself has taught.

Many more verses, but I'll address one you brought up:

You're apparently referring to 2 Timothy 2:12-13 when you said:

IF<---->WE BELIEVE NOT, HE abides faithful because HE cannot DENY HIMSELF

Here are the verses:
12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;

If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

So which is it? If we deny Him, He will deny us?
OR
If we are faithless, He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself?

How do YOU explain this apparent contradiction in Paul's words??

Please notice that in the first instance Jesus is denying US
in the second instance He's denying HIMSELF.

Could you explain to us what that means?

The bible speaks of salvation,,,not rewards. I won't even get into this till you could explain the above.

Thanks.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK. I'll go through it right now.
I'll only post the verses where Jesus gives a promise or a command.

John 6
verse 27 Don't work for material goods, work for heavenly goals which will endure forever.

Why did you remove the words eternal life and replace it with Goals?

I think we need to start here, because this is the MAIN point or context of the rest Jesus says.


Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

How can you get what you said from this verse? (Remembering he fed them yesterday, and he is trying to make a spiritual point, and what food they need to really be seeking.

1. He did not say materials. He said food
2. He contrasted this food which perishes. With food which will never perish.
3. He said this food will not only never perish, but it will endure to eternal life

Can you please explain?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi EG, you posted a good post but there's something here that is not correct.

It's the way you use the word "believe". You use it as we do in this modern day and age..
to believe with our mind...to agree with our mind... It never goes from the mind to the heart.

The way "believe" was used in the Greek and in Jesus' time is not how we use it today and how you're using it...

When Jesus said we are to believe in Him and the One who sent Him, He means with our heart, NOT with our mind. He means that we are also to have faith and we are to trust the one who sent Him, and we are to trust Him, and we are to follow Him and obey what He teaches.

This is what believe means in the way it was used in Jesus' time.

The way you're describing it makes you right, like for instance the analogy of the guy crossing Niagra Falls...but it's not how Jesus meant it.

You could check this out...

part 1 of 2

Lol. I used the term belief as it has always been used.

Belief has with it many forms. James spoke of one of these forms in James, when he said even demons believe.

Why would James contrast dead faith with demonic belief, if there was not a deifference.


Yes the word belief CAN be translated assurance trust etc etc (He who believs is not condemned) but it can also mean just meantal agreement.

Why wudl I believe and not work? I have no faith

Why woudl I beieve yet try it my own way by working for it? Because my belief is not faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

part 2 of 2

Result 1- Belief, Believe, Believers
A. Verbs

1. pisteuo
2. peitho

B. Noun

1. pistis

C. Adjective

1. pistos

A1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Verb] pisteuo "to believe," also "to be persuaded of," and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust," signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the Apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord's first use of the verb, see John 1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated "believers."



See also : pisteuo



A2. Belief, Believe, Believers [Verb] peitho "to persuade," in the Middle and Passive Voices signifies "to suffer oneself to be persuaded," e.g., Luke 16:31; Heb 13:18; it is sometimes translated "believe" in the RV, but not in Acts 17:4, RV, "were persuaded," and Acts 27:11, "gave (more) heed;" in Acts 28:24, "believed." See AGREE, ASSURE, OBEY, PERSUADE, TRUST, YIELD.

Note: For apisteo, the negative of pisteuo, and apeitheo, the negative of peitho, see DISBELIEVE, DISOBEDIENT.






B1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Noun] pistis "faith," is translated "belief" in Rom 10:17; 2 Thess 2:13.Its chief significance is a conviction respecting God and His Word and the believer's relationship to Him.

Note: In 1 Cor 9:5 the word translated "believer" (RV), is adelphe, "a sister," so 1 Cor 7:15; Rom 16:1;James 2:15, used, in the spiritual sense, of one connected by the tie of the Christian faith.






C1. Belief, Believe, Believers [Adjective] pistos
(a) in the Active sense means "believing, trusting;"
(b) in the Passive sense, "trusty, faithful, trustworthy." It is translated "believer" in 2 Cor 6:15; "them that believe" in 1 Tim 4:12, RV (AV, "believers"); in 1 Tim 5:16, "if any woman that believeth," lit., "if any believing woman." So in 1 Tim 6:2, "believing masters." In 1 Pet 1:21 the RV, following the most authentic mss., gives the noun form, "are believers in God" (AV, "do believe in God"). In John 20:27 it is translated "believing."

It is best understood with significance C1(a), e.g., in Gal 3:9; Acts 16:1; 2 Cor 6:15; Titus 1:6; it has significance C1(b), e.g., in 1 Thess 5:24; 2 Thess 3:3 (see Notes on Thess. p. 211, and Gal. p. 126, by Hogg and Vine). See FAITHFUL, SURE.

You made th epost so large could not respond because it was too large.

All this is good. But all words have differing uses, the interpretations you gave is ALL POSSIBLE interpretations.

Which one you use is found in context.

Does context mean anythign to you?

Does a person who believes in God yet never does anyuthign God asks have true faith in God?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

works do not save. I don't know anyone who thinks they do.

Anyone who says salvation can be lost because of something we either did not do, or failed to continue to do or failed to do believes so.

But they are a SIGN of salvation.
So, as a consequence....
if there are NO WORKS, it is evident that one cannot be saved.

Can not be saved is HUGELY different than was save and now is not saved

Simple.

As James said:
Faith without works is a dead faith.
James 2.17, 20
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

James says that faith without works is useless.
A simple statement, easily understood.
If we say we have faith...we should also do God's works.
Colossians 3:17
17Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

Again, You missed context. James asked the question, IF A PERSON CLAIMS to HAVE FAITH, BUT HAS NO WORK. CAN THAT CLAIMED FAITH SAVE THEM.

His argument is based on this.

If I believe I DO WELL (EVEN DEMONS BELIEVE)

But if I HAVE NO FAITH, I AM NOT SAVED.

How can we say this?

Paul said we are sveed THROUGH FAITH ad those who are SAVED THROUGH FAITH WILL PRODUCE WORKS.

Faith works.. Mere belief does not

Sadly the very verse you are using goes to show theat belief and faith are not always the same.

As for your last comment. The word SHOULD is misplaced and misapplied.

Those who have faith WILL DO WORK. There is no SHOULD ABOUT IT.

It may not be alot of works. But there will be work.. Not everyone will be superchristians. Even paul admitted many christians can remain babes. Babes do not do much work because they do not know how.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But the question is: Is faith in Jesus necessary to be saved?

YES..

Mere belief is not enough

Faiht works

I can believe and never work.

The people in james believd, they had no works, beacuse they had no faith, (It was dead)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let me ask you this...

What if someone is born again and saved right now.
Sometime down the line, maybe after years, he decides that Christianity is all fake and nonsense and he decides to leave the faith and might even be mad at God for some reason that caused this change.

Is that person still saved?

1. You have to assume he is saved now. You can not prove that
2. John gives us the answer.

1 John 2: 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[rlm68]

That would make yu sinless.

Are you claiming your sinless? If so. Then I can move on. If not. Then you can not keep your own standard.

Repent meand to change mind yes. But I do not think the topic of what we change our view on is in your mind..

I will give you and example using your own

As a non believer, I enjoyed sex with many women, When I repent, I admit that it is wrong, and it is damaging, not only to me but them, and God knows what is best.

However, I am week, and am tempted and fal.. It does not mean I changed my mind again and no longer believe God was right, it is that I allowed my flesh to win.

I do not need to repent again, Because I never stopped believeing it was wrong.

Ths goes for ANY SIN.

I am saying the SAME THING as you, but I am just doing it cut and dry.

No doubt, whatever sins you enjoyed, you will still be tempted with because they were fun to you when you were freely committing them.

And yes, changing of the mind is basically another term for REASONING.
Now, you reason within your mind that you want to change, and therefore try to stop committing those sins you once enjoyed.

But bottom line is this, true repentance then means you have changed from the old person to the new person by trying to eliminate those fun sins you once enjoyed committing!!


But, if we used simple analogy here, repentance = stop sinning because that is what a changed mind does. It changes from who you were to who you are now (either by not sinning the same sins, or committing that sin less).