Church is it even biblical

[Hevosmies]

Divisions and confusion is what we see in the churches now and we can not associate confusion with God- a clear indicator that churches was not meant by God. The unity we have is in faith, that unity was achieved in the 1st century and is ongoing until the end of age.

Btw, there was no unity in 1st century either. Did you read the book of Acts, or Paul's epistles? Even John's epistles spell out problems of disunity.

It just wont ever happen. There will always be different doctrines, why? Because everyoen reads the bible and has a different brain in their head, and therefore INTERPRETS it differently, to their liking. And dont get me any of that Holy Spirit giving you understand of the scriptures, EVERYONE claims that. That doesnt mean anything today. Mormons claim the same.

 

[Noose]

Btw, there was no unity in 1st century either. Did you read the book of Acts, or Paul's epistles? Even John's epistles spell out problems of disunity.

It just wont ever happen. There will always be different doctrines, why? Because everyoen reads the bible and has a different brain in their head, and therefore INTERPRETS it differently, to their liking. And dont get me any of that Holy Spirit giving you understand of the scriptures, EVERYONE claims that. That doesnt mean anything today. Mormons claim the same.

I have already addressed that. The disunity in the 1st century was because different groups had different backgrounds, some were pagans and others Jews who were never used to mingling with Gentiles. God was working a new thing amongst them. The disunity today is from the teachers in these churches and from what these evangelists preach. A very clear sign that it is not from God.

Nice try though.

 

[Noose]

Could you clarify what you mean here sir?


You said "I'm not saying that there was never a time to preach and evangelize, that time is long gone.".
Are you suggesting we no longer need to evangelize? If yes, what is your evidence that its the case? Adn what do you suggest we do then?
Also, do you believe that verse 34 in jeremiah 31 is already fulfilled?

That chapter is talking about the new covenant (blood of Christ). If it has not been fulfilled then we are still in the old covenant, but if it has been fulfilled then the word of God stands; No preaching, no one telling another "know the Lord" for they shall all know the Lord.

 

[Hevosmies]

That chapter is talking about the new covenant (blood of Christ). If it has not been fulfilled then we are still in the old covenant, but if it has been fulfilled then the word of God stands; No preaching, no one telling another "know the Lord" for they shall all know the Lord.

You do realize that if we were to take how you interpret that to its logical conclusion, we should throw away the Bible?
What is the New Testament, OTHER THAN writings and exhortations and preaching???? Paul sent letters to CHURCHES, went around PREACHING, and TEACHING them......

 

[Noose]

You do realize that if we were to take how you interpret that to its logical conclusion, we should throw away the Bible?
What is the New Testament, OTHER THAN writings and exhortations and preaching???? Paul sent letters to CHURCHES, went around PREACHING, and TEACHING them......

True but i'm talking about the new covenant because that chapter is about the new covenant and Paul also said it was about the new covenant (Heb 10).
So the question remains, are we in the new covenant or not?

FYI, you have already tossed the bible away and now following man's doctrines and calling other people heretics.

 

[Hevosmies]

True but i'm talking about the new covenant because that chapter is about the new covenant and Paul also said it was about the new covenant (Heb 10).
So the question remains, are we in the new covenant or not?

FYI, you have already tossed the bible away and now following man's doctrines and calling other people heretics.

For denying the physical resurrection yes, you are a heretic make no mistake about it

Thats why it doesnt surprise me you would be messed up in MANY other different areas, when the CORE foundational fundamental BASIC doctrines are messed up.

But carry on carrying on!

 

[Noose]

For denying the physical resurrection yes, you are a heretic make no mistake about it

Thats why it doesnt surprise me you would be messed up in MANY other different areas, when the CORE foundational fundamental BASIC doctrines are messed up.

But carry on carrying on!

Where do you get the idea that flesh and bones are resurrected when the bible clearly talks of spiritual resurrection?

1 Cor 15:
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” f ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we g bear the image of the heavenly man.

50I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable

 

[preston39]

In the time of the apostles they would have called it synagogue.
The church was first brought to light in the 16th century by Catholics and king james.
Jesus called his gathering Eclesia.
The church is a building we are a temple.
The Catholics built the greatest empire in the world. Killing those who disagreed. And stealing untold billions of dollars from those who wanted to know god.
Then there are the multitude of denominations with no fellowship with each other.
Inside. Of each group there is the hierarchy.
Fellowship amongst saints happen at the grass roots level. I e boots on the ground.
To summarize church is not of God, for he wanted a relationship with us and each other. That is surely lacking in most church. Hope your happy I'm back

...and G-d says where there are two or more there I am also.
Church represents a gathering of like minds...for worship.
So the concept and intent of church is of G-d and for G-d.

Just because ....relationship with each other..... is marred today...that does not negate the effectiveness of..."church's"...intent...does it?

 

[Dino246]

I have already addressed that. The disunity in the 1st century was because different groups had different backgrounds, some were pagans and others Jews who were never used to mingling with Gentiles. God was working a new thing amongst them. The disunity today is from the teachers in these churches and from what these evangelists preach. A very clear sign that it is not from God.

Nice try though.

1 Corinthians 1:10-12 disagrees with you...

I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

As you say, "Nice try though."

 

[Dino246]

Where do you get the idea that flesh and bones are resurrected when the bible clearly talks of spiritual resurrection?

Perhaps he gets it from John 20: A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

"See my hands". Sounds like flesh and bones to me.

 

[Noose]

1 Corinthians 1:10-12 disagrees with you...

I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

As you say, "Nice try though."

I never said there were no divisions in the 1st century church, i said those divisions were nothing compared to the disunity today and that those divisions were not caused by doctrines being taught yet divisions today are caused by the doctrines being taught.
Big difference.

Nice try.

 

[Noose]

Perhaps he gets it from John 20: A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

"See my hands". Sounds like flesh and bones to me.

So let's imagine, Jesus dies and His spirit is resurrected and the body remains in the tomb. What Gospel/ How was the gospel to be preached?
If you tell the people "Jesus of Nazareth died and was resurrected..." what evidence will you give them so that they believe the gospel? they will all tell you "His body still lie in the tomb"

The bodily resurrection of Jesus had to be to fulfill the prophesies but mainly as evidence, otherwise the bible says Jesus resurrected spitually immediately after His death:

Matt 27:
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and e went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Sign of Jonah is for a wicked generation.

 

[JaumeJ]

When Jesus spoke of giving and taking of brides He said there is no need of such for we all live forever.

It is written come the resurrection we will all be transformed and be just like Jesus,, Yeshua. We will not be He but just as He is.

He is not flesh a bone now, for even wefore He ascended He asked that He not be touched for He was not yet transformed.

He remained somewhat in flesh to continue the forty days after His resurrection, but now His Body is glorified, just as we shall be, never in flesh which is allied to corruption but everlasting……..no flesh, bones or blood.

 

[Studyman]

You do realize that if we were to take how you interpret that to its logical conclusion, we should throw away the Bible?
What is the New Testament, OTHER THAN writings and exhortations and preaching???? Paul sent letters to CHURCHES, went around PREACHING, and TEACHING them......

I think that is Nooses point. We have our elders, we have the teaching. It's everywhere. Anyone who wants to "seek" the Lord can Find His Word. His Bible is everywhere. No more need to find a "Preacher" to filter His Word as the Old Covenant Preachers did.

The idea that I can't sit down myself or with two or more people and study His Word and be given understanding by His Spirit is absolutely anti-Biblical.

There are a few things the Bible teaches that many just don't believe. One of those things is that satan deceives through religion. We were given an example of this Biblical fact in the beginning when the serpent said to Eve "Hath God not said".

So the preaching that I must "assemble" with all religious people who call the Christ Lord, Lord is just not true. The Bible teaches just the opposite. And the only way for me to be protected from the wiles of the devil is to "put on the Armor of God" not go to a religious franchise which transgresses the commandments of God by their own religious traditions.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God"

Eph. 6:
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Religions promote themselves and their own doctrine as did the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time. The Bible was written for us.

2 Tim. 2:
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Nowhere here does it tell me to "assemble" with religions, rather, to "seek" the God of the Bible. And He can be found if we are interested, not in belonging to a religious social club, but if we are truly interested in a "personal" relationship with Him.

2 Tim. 3:
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Then we can discern between truth and falsehoods. I don't think there is any other way.

 

[posthuman]

The idea that I can't sit down myself or with two or more people and study His Word and be given understanding by His Spirit is absolutely anti-Biblical.

((hasn't read the whole thread))

is anyone actually saying that?

what if it's 20 or more people?

 

[garee]

The preaching that the Christ didn't come as a human is fascinating to me. Here is a God who was prophesied to come as a man, who was "born" and who "died" as all men do, and yet religious men can not accept that He was flesh and blood.

What spirit would be behind such a teaching?

What Spirit would want me to believe that Jesus wasn't a man at all, but God. That Jesus didn't have victory over satan as a man, but as God. How can God have a victory over it's creation? Why would God fake it? Why would He claim victory over sin if He was a God? Why would He make such a big deal out of His Death and resurrection if He was a God with nothing to lose in the first place. Was His death a fraud in your religion? Was it all just show business?

How is He the Firstfruit of many other Humans who Trust in God's Way over the ways of religious man, if He wasn't a Human? When He was tempted, was that just a fake slight of hand to deceive, a fraud? Can satan tempt God? Was His sweat of blood just a deception, just a fake show, and for what?? Why pretend to be a man if He wasn't? This whole teaching really diminishes His Glory and victory. This teaching doesn't come from the father, there is no way.

I know you don't mean anything bad, you are just following a teaching. But consider some things here if you will. Was His Whole life and sacrifice a fraud, a scam? To pretend He was a man when He really wasn't?

Did Cain Kill Abel, or did Cain kill the Christ that was in Abel? And every Faithful servant of God through out the entire Bible, could this same thing be said? So of a truth, the Christ was slain from the foundation of the World was He not?

And why is this? Can I trust Jesus for the answer?

Gen. 1:
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

John 3:
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Did Cain also "hate the Light"?

No sir, I Believe He came in the Flesh. A Man, like unto Moses, a "Man of Sorrows" born of a woman, mortal human being who was killed and died as all men do, and was raised by God the Father, 3 days and 3 nights later and given a "changed" Immortal Body as HE will all those Faithful whom God has given Him.

He risked and gave His Life for me, His immortality for me. And He was Faithful to the End. Truly He is the Author and finisher of my Faith.

He was truly the First fruit, the first Human of all humans who died in Faith. And by His human obedience "many" Shall be saved.

I would offer The Son of man, Jesus of his own flesh did not hide the fact that His flesh as that seen did not, could not profit as if God was a man as us.

Yes he came in the flesh for a one time outward demonstration of His unseen pouring out of His Spirit the promise as if it was blood. Blood like water is a metaphor used to describe the unseen Spirit of God.

This was as an example of the unseen work that was performed before the foundation of the world as the lamb slain. He rested on the 7th day. Today when we hear his voice and mix what we do hear with faith (the unseen) we enter the rest of the lamb of God from all the work he did perform .

Yes Cain refused to hear the gospel he murdered his brother Abel... as in out of sight out of mind(no faith). The father of lies a murderer from the beginning. Cain is marked (666) as a restless wanderer not receiving the sabbath rest we receive when we do not harden our hearts. He had to suffer a living hell all the days of his life. again no rest.

 

[posthuman]

Good. So in this covenant, a brother is not supposed to tell another, know the Lord as per Jer 31.

i really don't think the passage is telling us we're 'not supposed to' tell each other to know the LORD.
rather, it is saying the day will come ((is it come?)) that it won't be necessary to do so, because each brother and sister will know the LORD. yet throughout the epistles the apostles are teaching the believers about Him - what does that mean, that they are not partakers in His covenant?

 

[Noose]

i really don't think the passage is telling us we're 'not supposed to' tell each other to know the LORD.
rather, it is saying the day will come ((is it come?)) that it won't be necessary to do so, because each brother and sister will know the LORD. yet throughout the epistles the apostles are teaching the believers about Him - what does that mean, that they are not partakers in His covenant?

When is the new covenant ratified?
IMO, the new covenant was for the end times "and this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached to all nations as a witness, and then the end shall come..."

During the apostles time, the new covenant was not ratified until they finished witnessing to all the nations and until John penned the following, that specific moment:

Rev 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

So, it makes sense that the antichrist was being held until the gospel was preached as a witness to the nations, but when they (apostles and 1st century church) finished witnessing, then the end came and we are still in it.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

That chapter simply talks of the new covenant which is being fulfilled in us.

Heb 10:
11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.” b
17Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.” c
18And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

Why then did the apostles establish teachers, preachers, etc.
If that prophecy was about the new covenant in Christ, that would make the teaching of Paul, Peter, James, and John about establishing churches through out the world wrong, and thus as false prophets all their teachings wrong which would destroy the foundations of the new covenant. So clearly as Isreal rejected Christ, this promise to them is still as of yet to be fullfilled as many of the prophecies are still yet to come.

 

[posthuman]

Christians can meet all they want but for what? What's the reason for meeting?

well Noose, why exactly are you here on CC in the BDF meeting with other Christians?
for what? what's the reason for your presence on the website and in the discussion threads?