Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

[eternally-gratefull]

No one can really explain how anyone else believes.
But, they can take what many here post, find similarities, and see that in general many are saying the same thing.

Sad part is. Most of time their wrong, then get mad when they are told that.

 

[rlm68]

Delirious,

There are currently 2 schools of thought on these forums concerning OSAS ,and both actually agree and are the same, but explained differently.

So, in as easy I believe it can be explained I will show how I am seeing it from the other posters vs my own view.

If you some how discover people talking about Jesus (Yeshua). And you ask who are they talking about. After hearing them, you decide you want to try this Jesus. So you pray/ask forgiveness/the business of getting saved per church example...they will claim you are saved and need to attend church. But, you don't go to church, don't follow up on who this Jesus person is, just basically keep on being who you were...the idealism here is that you were NEVER SAVED to begin with.

Now, if you do just the opposite by going to church, learning more about Jesus, getting involved with scripture, and have changed your habits and things you once did.......well.......at this point, chances are you will continue because you want to. For those who want to learn and be with God, their salvation is guaranteed for the fact they themselves are not going to go back to their old ways.

So, according to everyone I suppose on these forums, the OSAS refers to:

1. We know God WILL NEVER LEAVE us once we find Him and ask Him in (repent and become saved)
2. Now everything falls onto the person in what they want (God vs old sinful life)

Consciousness:
what is in our thoughts most of the time/or/at any given time

Basically, if your consciousness is about God, then you are trying to be His follower. This includes when you sin you ask for true repentance. It means you are aware of you to God to know we need Him for everything. You are OSAS!!

If your consciousness never includes God, even after going to the alter, because you went to church with a friend and felt guilty for that one time sermon subject..........but never go back or try to live for God. You were NEVER saved so the OSAS cannot apply.


It's rather tricky understanding the minds of those who participate here. But ultimately, this is what is believed concerning the OSAS matter...:

From God's view, He never leaves us so we are secure. If God is on our view, it means we are conscious of Him because we live for Him. Both sentences then equal the perfect union to describing OSAS.

^This is how I interpret what is being said on these forums concerning the OSAS issue...

I will ask since I might have offended a brother or 2 here...(putting people in a box)

Even though this is written how I write...

Is there a point I tried to make from my view of the OSAS that anyone who does believe the OSAS way disagree with?

Because, many have posted at me when I spoke against the OSAS...and these are for the better most part...basic reasons why they believe in the OSAS!!

This is their interpretation of scripture

 

[Locutus]

We need to clean up bad dogtrine.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I will ask since I might have offended a brother or 2 here...(putting people in a box)

Even though this is written how I write...

Is there a point I tried to make from my view of the OSAS that anyone who does believe the OSAS way disagree with?

Because, many have posted at me when I spoke against the OSAS...and these are for the better most part...basic reasons why they believe in the OSAS!!

This is their interpretation of scripture

Let me help

I believe when god says I HAVE eternal life, he meant it, he is trustworthy in this statement

I believe when gid said i will never hunger, never thirst, never die, live forever, be risen by him, and as long as he lives, i willlive also, and he is trustworthy to keep this promise

I believe when paul said christ took what was contrary to me, against me, and took it out of the way nailing it to cross.

I believe all these promises and many more

If you want to call it eternal security or OSAS, feel free, but know, i just believe what god said as truthn and as john said, the knowledhe i HAVE eternal life, is the basis for my faith to continue to be

 

[delirious]

Try not to put people into neat, tidy boxes like "Calvinist". Many aspects of Calvinism I agree with, some I don't. so please leave the labels at the door.

OK. Second soil it is then.

Matthew 13:5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had NO ROOT they withered away.

Who is the root? If you can get your mind around WHO the Root is, then you can see they NEVER had HIM.

Also, meditate, don't just read, this passage AGAIN:
1 John 2:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

You have misquoted the passage about the second soil. It does not say in the original Greek that they have "no root" as you claim. The NASB translation gets it correct when it translates it properly by saying they have "no firm root".

The idea in the Greek is that there is no depth to the root. They have a root but because their heart is bad (rocky soil) it has no depth to their root. Their heart is shallow.

You are also misquoting 1 John 2: 19. That passage is about false teachers in the Christian church when you look at the context. You are trying to make that passage say that it is a reference to ALL people who leave the faith that they somehow were not real Christians after all.

SO THE SECOND SOIL DOES HAVE A ROOT just like it says in the Greek and you made the unwarranted assumption that Jesus was the root which the parable of the sower never says either.

 

[delirious]

The parable of the sower is not about losing salvation.....Jesus brings a positive instructive message ....it is about bearing fruit.

It says that the devil takes away the word so they will not believe and be saved. This is in reference to the first soil. So the parable is about salvation.

 

[preacher4truth]

It says that the devil takes away the word so they will not believe and be saved. This is in reference to the first soil. So the parable is about salvation.

Could have sworn she said it's not about loss of salvation, not that she said it's not about salvation at all.

Bro, seriously, if you're missing something that simple and not seeing that context, is it probable that you're missing the point elsewhere as well? I dare say yes, you're misusing and misunderstanding Scripture brother. You've got to get to what it means not just what it says. The language there is showing that there is not a genuine conversion -- it's right there in the text.

Now, can you please show us some commentary that shows the person lost salvation in that text?

 

[delirious]

Really, all these threads on this issue and you had to open another one.

All this study, and your conclusion is you must earn salvation,

Thats to bad, because you wasted all your time studying and did not fing Gods truth

I have noticed how every single person that has responded to this thread so far has either:

1) Tried to hijack the thread to another topic
2) Offered no argumentation from Scripture to refute the claims of my post where I used Scripture. This is what you did in your response and is purely an emotional argument that has no validity because it is not based on any argumentation from Scripture. Just your opinions.
3) Misquoted Scripture
4) Hit the thumbs down or X for disagree without any argumentation from Scripture. More proof of an emotional reaction when a person has no argument.

And to answer your assumption in your quote, it is not "earning your salvation" to require someone to continue to believe in Christ. That is bad logic.

 

[Chester]

I have spent the last 22 months studying the Bible, especially the New Testament, several hours per day. Sometimes up to 10 to 12 hours per day. I have been a Christian for 30 years but because of unemployment the last 22 months I have had a lot of time to study. I estimate I have spent about 3,500 hours studying my Bible the last 2 years.



I’m writing this post because I am concerned about a dangerous and false doctrine that permeates the Christian church.



POST CONTINUED IN FIRST REPLY

Two mistakes you make right away:

(1) Brag about your study time
(2) Make a looooooong post - few people are going to read it - probably most who are posting here never really read what you wrote

I am in agreement with you that OSAS is not biblical.

 

[delirious]

Strawman quote from Op: "
It is the doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved” or “Eternal Security”. This doctrine teaches that once a person believes in Jesus, even if it is just for one moment in time, that person is saved forever. THIS IS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY CONTINUE BELIEVING OR ARE REPENTANT."


Your premise is false thus your argument is void.

One is not saved unless their BELIEF is the kind that includes repentance (admitting they are sinners in need of a favour), salvation (accepting that Jesus death on the Cross was enough to wash away their sins) and sanctification (having the seal of the holy Spirit to teach and guide you and the righteous/virtue of Christ to protect you as you gain in knowledge, self control, perseverance, brotherly kindness and agape love)

Only if you have this type of faith are you truly saved. Only if you are sealed by the Holy Spirit and told that you are a beloved child of God do you have eternal security.

Otherwise it's just false assurances of a fallen world.

There was no strawman. Eternal security teaches that if you believe in Jesus you can walk an aisle, say the sinners prayer, and get saved. No lifestyle change needed. This is taught in churches all over the place.

I have shown using Scripture that a person "can lose their salvation" if you want to put it in those terms.

1 John 5: 11 says that eternal life is only in the Son. You have eternal life because His Spirit has come and quickened your spirit when you believe in Him. My post shows that if a person stops believing they perish. They are not united to Christ anymore and only God possesses eternal life.

 

[delirious]

Two mistakes you make right away:

(1) Brag about your study time
(2) Make a looooooong post - few people are going to read it - probably most who are posting here never really read what you wrote

I am in agreement with you that OSAS is not biblical.

I agree with you Chester. I should not have mentioned my study time. The post is also way too long, as you rightly noted, but I wanted to give someone as comprehensive a picture as I could who might actually have an open mind to what the Scripture actually says on this subject.

I am also aware, just from the responses I have received, that most people have not read what I posted. I appreciate your comments.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Eternal security teaches […]. No lifestyle change needed. This is taught in churches all over the place.

Are you saying "lifestyle change needed" FOR [to obtain] salvation?

Or as a result of salvation? [and is that dependent on YOU, or on the power of Christ/God/the Spirit? (2Cor3:18 and 2Tim3:5)]

Or what?

 

[delirious]

Could have sworn she said it's not about loss of salvation, not that she said it's not about salvation at all.

Bro, seriously, if you're missing something that simple and not seeing that context, is it probable that you're missing the point elsewhere as well? I dare say yes, you're misusing and misunderstanding Scripture brother. You've got to get to what it means not just what it says. The language there is showing that there is not a genuine conversion -- it's right there in the text.

Now, can you please show us some commentary that shows the person lost salvation in that text?

Jesus says of the second soil that they really believe. He confirms it by saying life sprang up. We are all dead in sin and there is no life in us. It only comes from God.

1 John 5: 11 says that eternal life is only in the Son. Only God possesses it. You partake of it by faith in Him.

Jesus also says the second soil falls away when tested. They lose their faith. What does Jesus say happens? They wither. They go back to being just like an unbeliever because Christ is not there anymore.

The parrallel in John 15: 6 is the same wording as the second soil. They are both attached by faith. The branch in John 15: 6 stops believing and is broken off and withers just like the second soil description.

What happens to the branch? Thrown into the fire and burned. Same thing that happens to the second soil because the details are the exact same.

The parable is about salvation.

 

[delirious]

Are you saying "lifestyle change needed" FOR [to obtain] salvation?

Or as a result of salvation? [and is that dependent on YOU, or on the power of Christ/God/the Spirit? (2Cor3:18 and 2Tim3:5)]

Or what?

What I am saying is God doesn't save His enemies. There are many people in the church today who claim faith in Christ but have no interest in abandoning their sins. Eternal security tells these people they are saved when they are not. Just because they walked an aisle. They don't want salvation which is Colossians 1: 27. They want the get out of jail free card.

They will hear Matthew 7: 23, "I never knew you. Depart from me you who practice lawlessness." They called him Lord, Lord. They claimed to be believers but practiced sin. 1 john 3: 4 says that sin is lawlessness.

Christ alone saves us through our faith in Him. He alone empowers us by His Spirit to live the Christian life because he is the only one who can live it. So I am in agreement with you there.

 

[Ariel82]

Ephesians 1: 13-14 says, “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” So what does this verse really mean?



The Eternal Security/OSAS person does not understand this verse correctly because they keep thinking the “SEALING” is irreversible. Like the Holy Spirit is implanted within them now and cannot escape. But is this correct?



How did you receive the Holy Spirit the first time? Through faith in Christ. Who is Paul writing this letter to? The church at Ephesus. Believers. Believers. Believers.



Let me say it one more time in the hopes that it will sink down into your ears. They were BELIEVERS.



I already gave you the analogy of electricity and Jesus. So let’s think about it the correct way. If you stop believing, His Spirit leaves you. You flipped the light switch off. It’s just like the sap from the vine/Jesus in John 15. No more sap going into the branch which is you. No more of His life.



A “seal” in the Bible is a mark of ownership. In Revelation 13 we read about all the people who take the “mark of the beast” and everybody who takes the “mark” perishes. Why? Because they belong to the devil. It is a mark of ownership and allegiance. They are unbelievers.



How do I know this? Look at the immediate context that follows right after Revelation 13.



Revelation 14: 1, “Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.”



Why is the name written on their foreheads? And why is it on their foreheads only? The “mark of the beast” in Revelation 13 is on both foreheads and hands. Why?



Because in the Bible the forehead represents the mind/heart and what you believe. The hand represents your works/actions.



We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. This is why you see the name in Revelation 14: 1 written only on their foreheads and no mention of hands. Who are these people in Revelation 14: 1?



They are the same group in Revelation 7: 1-4. What does it say there? To paraphrase the verses it says, “…don’t harm anything until we SEAL the servants of our God on their foreheads…” The number is the exact same of Revelation 14. 144,000. Rev 7 and 14 are the same group.



A “SEAL” is a mark of ownership in the Bible. Who does God own? People of faith. Because it is what you believe in your mind/heart. This is why it is only on their foreheads in Rev 14: 1. They have put their trust in Christ. When a person stops believing, God doesn’t own them anymore. They have abandoned Him. No more seal. His Spirit departs.



Paul is speaking figuratively in Ephesians 1: 13 and 4: 30 saying to those believers that they belong to God because of their FAITH IN CHRIST. AND AS LONG AS THEY KEEP THAT FAITH IN CHRIST, GOD WILL FULFILL HIS PROMISES TO THEM.



There are 80 verses and passages within the New Testament that say a person must continue to believe to the end of their life or they will not be saved. To deny this is to deny Scripture. I can list them upon request if anyone wants them.



Now having said all this, I want to offer one caveat. I believe in the ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE SHEEP ONLY. What do I mean by this?



John 10: 26-29 says, “But you do not believe, because you are not My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”



This is the favorite passage of the Eternal Security/OSAS believer. They think this means that once you are “born again” and “sealed” that it is irreversible.



Something very important in this passage needs to be noted. JESUS IS NOT SAYING THAT ONLY SHEEP BELIEVE IN JOHN 10: 26. This is a logic error OSAS advocates make. This passage is a big reason why OSAS people think you “can’t lose your salvation” as they would put it.



I have already shown in this post that there are at least TWO CLASSES OF BELIEVERS. How do we reconcile this with John 10: 26-29?



In my opinion, the fourth soil, the one with the “good and sincere” hearts who bear fruit with patience, are the “sheep” of John 10 that Jesus is talking about. This is the only group of believers that will hang on to their faith their whole lives. Why?



Because they love God. And God gives them the revelation they need to keep believing. And because they love God they never leave Him or listen to anyone else and Jesus preserves them THROUGH THEIR FAITH THAT THEY KEEP ALL OF THEIR LIVES.



The second soil believers, along with the John 15: 6 believers, along with the John 2: 23-25 believers, along with the John 8: 31 believers, do not really love God. Their faith eventually dies. Why?



They leave because the road is hard and narrow as Matthew 7: 13-14 tells us and because they have “bad hearts” they go back to the world.



These BELIEVERS, and Jesus tells us they are all REAL BELIEVERS, perish eternally because they don’t hang on to their trust in Christ.



Sin hardens their heart, which is already “rocky soil” and not good to begin with, and their REAL FAITH DIES.



This is what the Scripture says. These are not my opinions. The only opinion I have given is that I believe that the fourth soil is probably the sheep of John 10. This is why I say I believe in the “eternal security of the sheep only”. But there is more than one class of REAL BELIEVERS.



Everything else I have given is Scripture alone and I believe proves that OSAS is false.



If you disagree with any of my conclusions, please use Scripture alone to tell me why. I would be happy to dialogue with you and love discussing the Scriptures.



God bless.

Okay the main thing I disagree with you is mostly your use of language, but then you may not agree with my usage either.

I do agree that eternal security is for true believer only or the fourth type of soil.

However I would disagree that the Rocky soil were ever saved or born again believers.

I don't think they ever got the Holy Spirit to change their hearts of stone to hearts of flesh (can get you the Bible verse later if needed).

They may have been part of a church, maybe even pastors but they would be the people Jesus speaks about when He says "Depart from me I never knew you" after they proclaim "Lord Lord we cast out demons in your name and worked great miracles"

These are the Rocky soil....to the world they appear "Christian" but to God they are wolves devouring the Sheep and stealing from God's children and spreading demonic lies within the church. They are like Judas Iscariot who stole money meant for the poor and widows for his own selfish purposes, who sold out Jesus for money.

The Rocky ground are not believers, they are wolves.

The first kind (Satan steals the seed) are aethist or other religions that reject Jesus as savior and the third (thorns nd brairs) are secular Christain who care more about this world than God's kingdom. (double-minded adulterers is another name the Bible calls them.

 

[Ariel82]

Three of the four seeds would claim to be Christain but only one truly is.

 

[preacher4truth]

Jesus says of the second soil that they really believe.

Jesus made no such statement bro, you're reading that into the text, it is known as eisegesis. You're saying they really believe, the language of the text doesn't support you.

He confirms it by saying life sprang up.

But Jesus never stated that either. Can we stick with the actual text, or must we submit to your biased paraphrasing? I'm not trying to be harsh, but that is what you're doing. You're creating a straw man, then defending it.

We are all dead in sin and there is no life in us. It only comes from God.

Agreed, and so does faith.

1 John 5: 11 says that eternal life is only in the Son. Only God possesses it. You partake of it by faith in Him.

That's another text and another subject brother.

Jesus also says the second soil falls away when tested. They lose their faith. What does Jesus say happens? They wither. They go back to being just like an unbeliever because Christ is not there anymore.

Their faith is proved not to be genuine. Note the language, "on rocky soil" and "no root in himself" all descriptive of the man, not of saving faith.

The parrallel in John 15: 6 is the same wording as the second soil. They are both attached by faith. The branch in John 15: 6 stops believing and is broken off and withers just like the second soil description.

What happens to the branch? Thrown into the fire and burned. Same thing that happens to the second soil because the details are the exact same.

No, sorry, you're conflating two differing texts into one. That is terrible hermeneutics brother.

The parable is about salvation.

Yes, but not about loss of salvation brother.

Now, can you please go grab some commentary that supports your view?

 

[delirious]

I am aware that the OP no longer wishes to engage me in this debate, so, fair enough and I understand why: Consistent exegetical interpretation is to be rejected, thus he will not engage me for this reason since that will be my position. However, I will seek to refute the premise and teaching of the OP as it is in error and needs to be refuted for the sake of others.

It is important to note Luke 8:13, which many who deny the faith use to "prove" salvation is based upon man and his decision, being captain of their own salvation via their own decision. There is no getting around that, this is the foundational problem in the errant gospel of losing salvation.

There are many passages that refute this entire premise of decisional regeneration, man being in charge of his destiny due to his decision, deciding his way in and out of the kingdom; John 1:13 and Romans 9:16ff for instance, thus it, losing salvation is based upon a faulty foundation and error.

So what of those persons mentioned in Luke 8:13? Looking closely at the text it is easy to see their profession is in vain; They are "on a rock" and "have no root" yet "believe" for a while. All of these descriptions are to be noted. Faith based truly in Christ cannot have these types of descriptive language. Only one of these persons in the parable are granted language that describes the truly converted, Luke 8:15, which uses the word "but" showing the distinction.

We must understand that temporary belief is not genuine faith, (note John 8:30-33&c) and their faith is based upon inherent ability, themselves where there is no root, not the faith from God; Romans 10:17; Romans 12:3; Php. 1:29, Acts 3:16; Eph. 1:19 &c. Thus there is no root. It, the word is planted on a rocky, only to endure for awhile, yet again it is not genuine faith. Secondly, when testing and proving of such faith comes along (temptations; i.e. proofing) their faith is to be found not genuine, Luke 8:13b.

The OP is melding the errors of FGT with the text at hand, and since the FGT position is false doctrine, the OP is arguing a straw man and dismantling a straw man he's erected. Thus he is not dismantling the biblical doctrine of eternal security/OSAS/perseverance of the faith. That's a double fallacy and shows the inherent problem in the OP.

I erected no strawman. Jesus Himself says that the second soil really believed. You are saying that Jesus is not telling the truth.

You have to say this because of your false doctrine of unconditional election. Your system can't have real belief in the unelect because it destroys your doctrine of unconditional election and that God somehow implants faith and repentance in people.

The second soil is one of many proofs in the Bible that unconditional election, just like all 5 points of Calvinism, are false.

I know what Bob Wilkin and the late Zane Hodges taught with FGT. I am not melding anything. Their doctrine is just as false as yours.

You have managed to distract me momentarily with your Calvinism, but as I said before, I don't want to discuss Calvinism in this thread about eternal security.

 

[preacher4truth]

There was no strawman. Eternal security teaches that if you believe in Jesus you can walk an aisle, say the sinners prayer, and get saved. No lifestyle change needed. This is taught in churches all over the place.

The doctrine of eternal security does not teach this, Free Grace Theology and other false teachers however do.

I have shown using Scripture that a person "can lose their salvation" if you want to put it in those terms.

1 John 5: 11 says that eternal life is only in the Son. You have eternal life because His Spirit has come and quickened your spirit when you believe in Him. My post shows that if a person stops believing they perish. They are not united to Christ anymore and only God possesses eternal life.

Sorry brother, your post may show you believe that, but Scripture doesn't teach what you believe.

 

[Chester]

Are you saying "lifestyle change needed" FOR [to obtain] salvation?

Or as a result of salvation? [and is that dependent on YOU, or on the power of Christ/God/the Spirit? (2Cor3:18 and 2Tim3:5)]

Or what?

"Eternal Security" itself does not "teach" that no lifestyle change is needed. Eternal security is a doctrinal belief or position. Most who hold this doctrine teach and live as if discipleship and life change is real and important for the Christian.

But the fact remains: If unconditional eternal security is true, then works are completely irrelevant and unnecessary to get to heaven. The implications of this doctrine are that, if a person has been truly saved, he/she can then live like a Hitlar and he/she is still saved.