Predestination or free wiil.
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That is not what is written:
Romans 9:
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
What was said before they were born was "the elder shall serve the younger".
What is written in Rom 9:10-12 is a reference to Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Do you know when it was written "Esau have I hated"? It was not until Malachi 1:3.
Also, in Rom 9:13 the word "hated" is the Greek word miséō. According to HELPS Word-studies, miséō is defined as follows:
Thayer's defines miséō as follows:
Romans 9:
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
What was said before they were born was "the elder shall serve the younger".
What is written in Rom 9:10-12 is a reference to Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Do you know when it was written "Esau have I hated"? It was not until Malachi 1:3.
Also, in Rom 9:13 the word "hated" is the Greek word miséō. According to HELPS Word-studies, miséō is defined as follows:
to detest (on a comparative basis); hence, denounce; to love someone or something less than someone (something) else, i.e. to renounce one choice in favor of another.
Lk 14:26: "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate (3404/miséō, 'love less' than the Lord) his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple".
Thayer's defines miséō as follows:
Romans 9:13, the signification to love less, to postpone in love or esteem, to slight
Where do I find what in the Bible, that Christians also physically die? This is a Pelagian claim? Really? 
The tree of life was not there just for fun, bro
You seem to be missing a lot of Gospel truth and doctrine from Romans i.e. original sin, guilt in Adam, federal headship, death through sin, whole world lost &c; Romans 3-6. But like I stated before you rarely use any Scripture.
I know what tabula rasa means, I have some basics in philosophy , I had lessons at University. But he reacted to my post that also Christians bodily die, so it was not the line of the convo.
Therefore to read that "this is a Pelagian claim" as a reaction to my post "Christians also die" was funny, so I smiled.
, I had lessons at University. But he reacted to my post that also Christians bodily die, so it was not the line of the convo.Therefore to read that "this is a Pelagian claim" as a reaction to my post "Christians also die" was funny, so I smiled.
That's good. Perhaps I am not understanding your English.
Maybe think again my bro.
It certainly is about this, there is no more sting of death due to the Gospel. The Gospel also speaks much concerning death, and resurrection, about the fact that disobedience resulted in death, Christ defeated death, our death means to be present with the LORD, victory over death &c.
I never stated the Gospel is just about physical death bro. Death came because man sinned, that was my point. But I think we are in agreement and Biblical about this.
Maybe think again my bro.
It certainly is about this, there is no more sting of death due to the Gospel. The Gospel also speaks much concerning death, and resurrection, about the fact that disobedience resulted in death, Christ defeated death, our death means to be present with the LORD, victory over death &c.
I never stated the Gospel is just about physical death bro. Death came because man sinned, that was my point. But I think we are in agreement and Biblical about this.
OK, maybe I used too many "would".
I believe that Adam and Eve would be allowed to eat from the tree of life, after their success in the temptation. This tree (whatever it is, a symbol, a metaphor , a literal tree, Christ...) would somehow transform their bodies from physical ones to the ones similar to bodies we will get after our resurrection, i.e. they would get spiritual bodies that do not die.
I believe that Adam and Eve would be allowed to eat from the tree of life, after their success in the temptation. This tree (whatever it is, a symbol, a metaphor , a literal tree, Christ...) would somehow transform their bodies from physical ones to the ones similar to bodies we will get after our resurrection, i.e. they would get spiritual bodies that do not die.
Maybe their bodies were already prepared for eternal immortality. But I digress, conjecture is just that, conjecture.
Was hoping you'd see the point about death and the Gospel that Scripture makes, of which I alluded to, and address that. It is important, comforting, as the Gospel most certainly deals with death in astounding ways.
If there was no death, there would be no Gospel.
Was hoping you'd see the point about death and the Gospel that Scripture makes, of which I alluded to, and address that. It is important, comforting, as the Gospel most certainly deals with death in astounding ways.
If there was no death, there would be no Gospel.
μισέω (miseō)
to hate, regard with ill-will, Mt. 5:43, 44; 10:22; to detest, abhor, Jn. 3:20; Rom. 7:15; in NT to regard with less affection, love less, esteem less, Mt. 6:24; Lk. 14:26
Thank you for your response, my friend. But when we say hate does not mean hate, we open the doors to accepting things like love does not really mean love but to hate less. Jacob I have hated less, but Esau I hated.
This all stems from an unbalanced view of God’s attributes. Preachers and Christians in general say God only loves, He never hates. We hear God loves the sinner only hates the sin. We hear God loves you just as you are, and so on. That is an very unbalanced view of Him.
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.(Psalm 5:5)
16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.(Proverbs 6:16-19)
This hatred God has is directed at people and their sins. You can not divorce sin from the sinner in regards to where God’s hatred is directed.
to hate, regard with ill-will, Mt. 5:43, 44; 10:22; to detest, abhor, Jn. 3:20; Rom. 7:15; in NT to regard with less affection, love less, esteem less, Mt. 6:24; Lk. 14:26
Thank you for your response, my friend. But when we say hate does not mean hate, we open the doors to accepting things like love does not really mean love but to hate less. Jacob I have hated less, but Esau I hated.
This all stems from an unbalanced view of God’s attributes. Preachers and Christians in general say God only loves, He never hates. We hear God loves the sinner only hates the sin. We hear God loves you just as you are, and so on. That is an very unbalanced view of Him.
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.(Psalm 5:5)
16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.(Proverbs 6:16-19)
This hatred God has is directed at people and their sins. You can not divorce sin from the sinner in regards to where God’s hatred is directed.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)
Sin, and consequently death, passed upon all Adam’s posterity due to his rebellious act in the Garden. Babies die in the womb due to his sin. We have sicknesses in our land due to his sin.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.(1 Corinthians 15:22)
Everybody born is born in Adam. They will die a physical death regardless they are a saint or sinner. Babies die due to being in Adam. Those who die still be in Adam, will taste the second death. The saved are no longer in Adam, but Christ. They still die physically, but never taste the second death. Why? They are in Christ.
Sin, and consequently death, passed upon all Adam’s posterity due to his rebellious act in the Garden. Babies die in the womb due to his sin. We have sicknesses in our land due to his sin.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.(1 Corinthians 15:22)
Everybody born is born in Adam. They will die a physical death regardless they are a saint or sinner. Babies die due to being in Adam. Those who die still be in Adam, will taste the second death. The saved are no longer in Adam, but Christ. They still die physically, but never taste the second death. Why? They are in Christ.
My question was if you can me show any verse in the Bible saying that somebody is guilty just because of Adam, without any personal sin.
You did not quote such verse, so I suppose you were not able to find any.
What you say next is not our topic, though. I was asking:
"If men have no free will at all, i.e. are like in a prison, unable to do anything from their own choice, how is it just that they will eternally die, what is their guilt to deserve such a punishment?".
This was my question.
You did not quote such verse, so I suppose you were not able to find any.
What you say next is not our topic, though. I was asking:
"If men have no free will at all, i.e. are like in a prison, unable to do anything from their own choice, how is it just that they will eternally die, what is their guilt to deserve such a punishment?".
This was my question.
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate [Greek μισέω (miseō)] not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Do you really believe Jesus is telling His disciples to "hate" his/her father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and him/herself?
And look at what Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate [Greek μισέω (miseō)] thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Following your analogy / understanding, God tells us to do something He is unwilling to do. He tells us to love our enemies, bless them, do good to them, pray for them. But in your analogy / understanding, God did not do the same for Esau.
And you have to completely remove Matt 5:45 from Scripture.
Are you aware that God gave Esau an inheritance?
Deuteronomy 2:
4 And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:
5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession [Hebrew ְ רֻשָּׁ֣ה yə-ruš-šāh = possession, inheritance].
Joshua 24:4 And I gave unto Isaac Jacob and Esau: and I gave unto Esau mount Seir, to possess it; but Jacob and his children went down into Egypt.
Now you're changing Scripture to support your doctrine rather than change your doctrine in order to follow Scripture. Poor workmanship (2 Tim 2:15).
Do you really believe Jesus is telling His disciples to "hate" his/her father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and him/herself?
And look at what Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate [Greek μισέω (miseō)] thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Following your analogy / understanding, God tells us to do something He is unwilling to do. He tells us to love our enemies, bless them, do good to them, pray for them. But in your analogy / understanding, God did not do the same for Esau.
And you have to completely remove Matt 5:45 from Scripture.
Are you aware that God gave Esau an inheritance?
Deuteronomy 2:
4 And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:
5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession [Hebrew ְ רֻשָּׁ֣ה yə-ruš-šāh = possession, inheritance].
Joshua 24:4 And I gave unto Isaac Jacob and Esau: and I gave unto Esau mount Seir, to possess it; but Jacob and his children went down into Egypt.
Now you're changing Scripture to support your doctrine rather than change your doctrine in order to follow Scripture. Poor workmanship (2 Tim 2:15).
No my friend. If love means love then hate means hate. God does not hate us less than those who die lost. His wrath will be poured out on the vessels of wrath(Romans 9). I am not doing poor workmanship my friend.
God is immutable and changes not. He does not love and then change to hate on the day the world is judged.
God is immutable and changes not. He does not love and then change to hate on the day the world is judged.
Based upon the above statement, 1 John 3:1 is yet another verse which needs to be removed from Scripture in order to prop up your erroneous doctrine.
1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God
And while you're at it, why not just tear 1 John 4:10 out of your Bible:
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us
1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God
And while you're at it, why not just tear 1 John 4:10 out of your Bible:
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us
Based upon the above statement, 1 John 3:1 is yet another verse which needs to be removed from Scripture in order to prop up your erroneous doctrine.
1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God
And while you're at it, why not just tear 1 John 4:10 out of your Bible:
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us
1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God
And while you're at it, why not just tear 1 John 4:10 out of your Bible:
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us
So according to your doctrine, we are to "hate" our father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and ourselves?
Matthew 5:
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate [Greek μισέω (miseō)] thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
In loving our enemies, blessing them, doing good to them, praying for them, we follow God as dear children (vs 45). These are all things God does in His love toward all mankind.
You really need to re-think your assertion concerning the word μισέω (miseō).
Matthew 5:
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate [Greek μισέω (miseō)] thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
In loving our enemies, blessing them, doing good to them, praying for them, we follow God as dear children (vs 45). These are all things God does in His love toward all mankind.
You really need to re-think your assertion concerning the word μισέω (miseō).