A BIBLICAL EXAMINATION OF CALVINISM

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John146 said:
Ephesians 2:
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
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Thanks, I will use more literal and modern English translation:

And you, being dead in your trespasses and sins— 2in which once you walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience, 3among whom we all also once lived in the desires of our flesh, doing the things willed of the flesh and of its thoughts; and we were by nature children of wrath even as the rest.

4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5made us alive with Christ even we being dead in trespasses—by grace you are saved— 6and He raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

It seems to me that Paul is saying that our past was bad and that we were dead because of our sins and then God made us alive by His mercy. I am not sure why this is against election God prepared before the world was created...? Election is a plan.
 
trofimus said:
Thanks, I will use more literal and modern English translation:

And you, being dead in your trespasses and sins— 2in which once you walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience, 3among whom we all also once lived in the desires of our flesh, doing the things willed of the flesh and of its thoughts; and we were by nature children of wrath even as the rest.

4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5made us alive with Christ even we being dead in trespasses—by grace you are saved— 6and He raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

It seems to me that Paul is saying that our past was bad and that we were dead because of our sins and then God made us alive by His mercy. I am not sure why this is against election God prepared before the world was created...? Election is a plan.
Click to expand...

My point is, if God chose you before the foundation of the world, then there would never had been a time where you were an object of His wrath, knowing that He already had chosen you to be saved.
 
John146 said:
My point is, if God chose you before the foundation of the world, then there would never had been a time where you were an object of His wrath, knowing that He already had chosen you to be saved.
Click to expand...
Well, if God planned to save us in some point of our life from His wrath, it means that before this point we were under His wrath.
 
John146 said:
If this were true, if you were saved before the foundation of the world, then there was never a time where God's wrath was against you. There was never a time when you were a child of disobedience. This makes many passages including Ephesians 2 a lie.
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Again my friend, you are conflating election with conversion. Donald J. Trump was elected president in November 2016, but took office in January 2017.

We were elected unto salvation. God chose His people before the foundation of the world, but saves them in time. Elected unto salvation my friend.
 
John146 said:
Ephesians 2:
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Click to expand...
We were by nature children of wrath. We were dead in our sins. We walked according to the course of this word, etc. No one denies these basic bible truths. You are the one who is going around denying God’s omniscience, God’s omnipotence(He can not have control over what He does not know), denying election took place when the Bible says it took place, you deny God’s immutability by saying He changes His mind, etc.

I find you are denying many things in the Bible that are clearly taught, my friend.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Again my friend, you are conflating election with conversion. Donald J. Trump was elected president in November 2016, but took office in January 2017.

We were elected unto salvation. God chose His people before the foundation of the world, but saves them in time. Elected unto salvation my friend.
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Still my friend, if God chose you before the foundation of the world to receive salvation at some point in time, then you were never really an object of God's wrath at any time, God knowing He already pre determined your outcome.
 
John146 said:
My point is, if God chose you before the foundation of the world, then there would never had been a time where you were an object of His wrath, knowing that He already had chosen you to be saved.
Click to expand...
My friend, there is no If to this. Election is unto salvation. No one was born saved.
 
John146 said:
Still my friend, if God chose you before the foundation of the world to receive salvation at some point in time, then you were never really an object of God's wrath at any time, God knowing He already pre determined your outcome.
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Ephesians 2:3 disagrees with you my friend.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
We were by nature children of wrath. We were dead in our sins. We walked according to the course of this word, etc. No one denies these basic bible truths. You are the one who is going around denying God’s omniscience, God’s omnipotence(He can not have control over what He does not know), denying election took place when the Bible says it took place, you deny God’s immutability by saying He changes His mind, etc.

I find you are denying many things in the Bible that are clearly taught, my friend.
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The above bold statements are outright lies brother. I have never doubted God's omniscience or omnipotence. I allow His word, not man, to define what those man made terms mean.

God's word is the one that states that God has changed His mind on certain matters, not me. I post Scripture and believe it. Do you deny what Scripture states? You see, when man disagrees with the bible, man comes up with isms and excuses to explain away what God's word plainly states. I don't want to do that.
 
John146 said:
The above bold statements are outright lies brother. I have never doubted God's omniscience or omnipotence. I allow His word, not man, to define what those man made terms mean.

God's word is the one that states that God has changed His mind on certain matters, not me. I post Scripture and believe it. Do you deny what Scripture states? You see, when man disagrees with the bible, man comes up with isms and excuses to explain away what God's word plainly states. I don't want to do that.
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Well, did you not say God did not know if Nineveh would repent of their evil or not, He did not know if Abraham was truly willing to offer Isaac as a sacrifice or not, so no, my friend, that is not omniscience.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Ephesians 2:3 disagrees with you my friend.
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Ephesians

WHAT WE WERE
A. We were "dead in trespasses and sins."
B. We walked according to the course of this world
1. According to the prince of the power of the air
2. Fulfilling the desires of the flesh.
C. We were by nature children of disobedience and wrath

If we were elected by God before the foundation of the world, this would have never been true. Again, God's wrath would have never been against us.
 
John146 said:
Ephesians

WHAT WE WERE
A. We were "dead in trespasses and sins."
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True, and we loved it.

B. We walked according to the course of this world
1. According to the prince of the power of the air
2. Fulfilling the desires of the flesh.
Click to expand...
True. We were dead and powerless to overcome him. We loved it.

C. We were by nature children of disobedience and wrath
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True again, my friend. We had a fallen nature being in Adam. Our nature, and also wills, were bent inwards, not upwards. Our wills were bent towards sin and Satan.

If we were elected by God before the foundation of the world, this would have never been true. Again, God's wrath would have never been against us.
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God chose us UNTO salvation, and by doing this, He would save us in time, my friend.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Well, did you not say God did not know if Nineveh would repent of their evil or not, He did not know if Abraham was truly willing to offer Isaac as a sacrifice or not, so no, my friend, that is not omniscience.
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Yep. You define omniscience one way, I allow the bible to define it another. God is all knowing. If it's knowledge to be known, God knows it. Man does not have this knowledge of all things. You include all future decisions in your definition which is just simply not biblical. Yes, God has declared certain things in the future. He knows how it's all going to end up with Himself ruling and reigning over all creation in a new heaven and new earth.

If you believe God knew ahead of time that Nineveh would repent and in turn He would not destroy them, then you conclude that God lied when He stated in forty days He would overthrow them. God is not a liar.
 
John146 said:
Yep. You define omniscience one way, I allow the bible to define it another. God is all knowing. If it's knowledge to be known, God knows it. Man does not have this knowledge of all things. You include all future decisions in your definition which is just simply not biblical. Yes, God has declared certain things in the future. He knows how it's all going to end up with Himself ruling and reigning over all creation in a new heaven and new earth.

If you believe God knew ahead of time that Nineveh would repent and in turn He would not destroy them, then you conclude that God lied when He stated in forty days He would overthrow them. God is not a liar.
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Is there more than one definition of omniscience my friend? You said God has chosen to limit His knowledge, not I my friend. If God has limited His knowledge, then He is not omniscient my friend.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Is there more than one definition of omniscience my friend? You said God has chosen to limit His knowledge, not I my friend. If God has limited His knowledge, then He is not omniscient my friend.
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Scripture declares that God is perfect in knowledge. If it is knowledge, He knows it completely. The future decisions of man are not knowledge until the decision comes to pass. Thoughts are knowledge to be known by God.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Is there more than one definition of omniscience my friend? You said God has chosen to limit His knowledge, not I my friend. If God has limited His knowledge, then He is not omniscient my friend.
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Please address Nineveh and God's decision not do to overthrow them as He said He would do. Thanks.

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
 
John146 said:
Scripture declares that God is perfect in knowledge. If it is knowledge, He knows it completely. The future decisions of man are not knowledge until the decision comes to pass. Thoughts are knowledge to be known by God.
Click to expand...
You deny He knows the future decisions of men? Is this correct my friend?
 
John146 said:
Please address Nineveh and God's decision not do to overthrow them as He said He would do. Thanks.

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
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Great, I agree with that statement my friend. That does not mean He did not know if they would or not.
 
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