Predestination or free wiil.

[trofimus]

Yet we are already responsible in our head Adam prior to conversion; Romans 5. Therefore God is just to punish the sinner, as all are under wrath; Ephesians 2:3, the entire world is guilty; Romans 3, and all are under condemnation; John 3:15ff.

Ok, maybe you can answer me where is the guilt of the individual who will end up in hell.

To just say "its because of his father" is not sufficient.

 

[preacher4truth]

Ok,

Well, it is all right there bro in the texts.

maybe you can answer me where is the guilt of the individual who will end up in hell.

To just say "its because of his father" is not sufficient.

All born in Adam are guilty and condemned.

Romans 3:19.

But I think you are charging God with being unfair, unintentionally. No one is really saying it is due to ones father, but whatever took place in the garden with Adam, he is the head of the human race, and all are in him who are not in Christ, and all in him are condemned.

The whole world is guilty before God. We may not completely understand it, but it is truth nonetheless. Any person in hell is there justly, as you know there is no injustice with God.

 

[trofimus]

Well, it is all right there bro in the texts.



All born in Adam are guilty and condemned.

Romans 3:19.

But I think you are charging God with being unfair, unintentionally. No one is really saying it is due to ones father, but whatever took place in the garden with Adam, he is the head of the human race, and all are in him who are not in Christ, and all in him are condemned.

The whole world is guilty before God. We may not completely understand it, but it is truth nonetheless. Any person in hell is there justly, as you know there is no injustice with God.

Your answer is typically calvinistic. But there are problems with it.

a) You are basically saying that many people will be eternally tormented because of Adam. This is not just and this is not what produces love towards God. It produces fear, only. And we are said not to only fear God, but also to love him.

b) You are saying the eternal punishment is just, but you do not know why, because calvinism (saying that we do not have any freedom in our acts and will) as such do not give any answer to this.

This is where calvinism falls short.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Your answer is typically calvinistic. But there are problems with it.

a) You are basically saying that many people will be eternally tormented because of Adam. This is not just and this is not what produces love towards God. It produces fear, only. And we are said not to only fear God, but also to love him.

b) You are saying the eternal punishment is just, but you do not know why, because calvinism (saying that we do not have any freedom in our acts and will) as such do not give any answer to this.

This is where calvinism falls short.

When you look at the OT, there were several times God instructed(commanded) His people to wipe out entire nations, including babies.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Your answer is typically calvinistic. But there are problems with it.

a) You are basically saying that many people will be eternally tormented because of Adam. This is not just and this is not what produces love towards God. It produces fear, only. And we are said not to only fear God, but also to love him.

b) You are saying the eternal punishment is just, but you do not know why, because calvinism (saying that we do not have any freedom in our acts and will) as such do not give any answer to this.

This is where calvinism falls short.

Babies die due to the results of the fall of Adam. They had no personal sin they committed, yet died due to the fall of Adam. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory. This includes babies that died in the womb.

 

[trofimus]

Babies die due to the results of the fall of Adam. They had no personal sin they committed, yet died due to the fall of Adam. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory. This includes babies that died in the womb.

We are not talking about the death of body, which is organic and temporal anyway.

We are talking about the eternal damnation based just on some kind of collective guilt. This is not producing love towards God and it is also intuitivelly very unjust, leading to see God as to be despotic.

 

[preacher4truth]

Your answer is typically calvinistic. But there are problems with it.

a) You are basically saying that many people will be eternally tormented because of Adam. This is not just and this is not what produces love towards God. It produces fear, only. And we are said not to only fear God, but also to love him.

b) You are saying the eternal punishment is just, but you do not know why, because calvinism (saying that we do not have any freedom in our acts and will) as such do not give any answer to this.

This is where calvinism falls short.

Sorry, but you simply do not use any Scripture in your responses, which unfortunately is your penchant on here. You're a smart kid as far as smart goes, but to be honest you're not really as Biblical as you should be -- you rarely use any.

That being said, everything is according to you, and purely subjective. There is no sense in continuing to debate with you when all your debating is based on what you believe sans Scriptura.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

We are not talking about the death of body, which is organic and temporal anyway.

We are talking about the eternal damnation based just on some kind of collective guilt. This is not producing love towards God and it is also intuitivelly very unjust, leading to see God as to be despotic.

It appears you are adhering to an old teaching of tabula rasa that was taught by Pelagius, in which babies are born without the guilt of original sin, my friend.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

We are not talking about the death of body, which is organic and temporal anyway.

We are talking about the eternal damnation based just on some kind of collective guilt. This is not producing love towards God and it is also intuitivelly very unjust, leading to see God as to be despotic.

Why do babies die if they die in a sinless state my friend?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Your answer is typically calvinistic. But there are problems with it.

a) You are basically saying that many people will be eternally tormented because of Adam. This is not just and this is not what produces love towards God. It produces fear, only. And we are said not to only fear God, but also to love him.

b) You are saying the eternal punishment is just, but you do not know why, because calvinism (saying that we do not have any freedom in our acts and will) as such do not give any answer to this.

This is where calvinism falls short.

Pardon my intrusion, I believe the scriptures to teach that God has given mankind a free will to choose how man wants to live his life here on earth, but God is sovereign in choosing man's eternal destination, without the help of man. If you read Ps 53:2-3, you will see why all mankind is justly due to go to hell, if it were not for God choosing an elect people before the foundation of the world by his foreknowledge of Ps 53:2-3.

 

[trofimus]

It appears you are adhering to an old teaching of tabula rasa that was taught by Pelagius, in which babies are born without the guilt of original sin, my friend.

Guilt? Where did you get this word from? Do you really mean that babies are guilty before doing anything wrong or good?

 

[trofimus]

Why do babies die if they die in a sinless state my friend?

Material/physical body is not immortal, cannot be. Thats why we, Christians, die too, even though Christ already died for us.

 

[trofimus]

Pardon my intrusion, I believe the scriptures to teach that God has given mankind a free will to choose how man wants to live his life here on earth, but God is sovereign in choosing man's eternal destination, without the help of man. If you read Ps 53:2-3, you will see why all mankind is justly due to go to hell, if it were not for God choosing an elect people before the foundation of the world by his foreknowledge of Ps 53:2-3.

How can God choose your destination if you can choose freely how you will live your life? How does this work together, according to you?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

What do you mean "God must first bring us to life" and "God first bring the spirit of a lost person to life"?

To me, when God brings a person to life, it means the person is "born again".

Exactly my friend, exactly.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

According to Ephesians 1:13, we trusted after we heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, we were sealed after we believed.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Guilt? Where did you get this word from? Do you really mean that babies are guilty before doing anything wrong or good?

They are guilty in Adam. People are either in Adam or Jesus, there are no other options.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

According to Ephesians 1:13, we trusted after we heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, we were sealed after we believed.

I have no problem with this. God births people by His Spirit and they are saved. This is done by the gospel.

 

[preacher4truth]

Material/physical body is not immortal, cannot be. Thats why we, Christians, die too, even though Christ already died for us.

Oh, so Adam and Eve would have died too, no matter what, even if they hadn't sinned. Lol!

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Material/physical body is not immortal, cannot be. Thats why we, Christians, die too, even though Christ already died for us.

Where do you find this in the Bible my friend? You are using no scripture to support your tabula rasa, Pelagian claims.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Guilt? Where did you get this word from? Do you really mean that babies are guilty before doing anything wrong or good?

Romans 9:13. Before they had anything good, bad or indifferent, God loved Jacob and hated Esau.

 

[trofimus]

Romans 9:13. Before they had anything good, bad or indifferent, God loved Jacob and hated Esau.

Nothing about guilt.