A BIBLICAL EXAMINATION OF CALVINISM

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

@Hevosmies @BaptistBibleBeliever @UnderGrace @John146

Please reconcile these two verses for me...

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.(John 3:16 King James Bible)

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.(John 17:9 King James Bible)

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

@Hevosmies @BaptistBibleBeliever @UnderGrace @John146

Please reconcile these two verses for me...

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.(John 3:16 King James Bible)

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.(John 17:9 King James Bible)

Calvinism teaches that 'the world' in the verse you quoted means 'the elect.' You can't reconcile God's Word with Satan's lie no matter how hard you twist it into an ecclesiastical pretzel.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Calvinism teaches that 'the world' in the verse you quoted means 'the elect.' You can't reconcile God's Word with Satan's lie no matter how hard you twist it into an ecclesiastical pretzel.

Again, please reconcile John 3:16 with John 17:9 my friend.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Again, please reconcile John 3:16 with John 17:9 my friend.

I cannot do so because you have redefined the words. I am already reconciled in my mind and have spoken on it in this thread. Go look it up.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Calvinism teaches that 'the world' in the verse you quoted means 'the elect.' You can't reconcile God's Word with Satan's lie no matter how hard you twist it into an ecclesiastical pretzel.

I asked you to reconcile them, not insult me, my friend.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

You just don't get it . . . Acts 7:51

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I cannot do so because you have redefined the words. I am already reconciled in my mind and have spoken on it in this thread. Go look it up.

My friend, if the word 'world' is monolithic, then we have a conundrum here. If God so loved the world, which means all whoever lived, and Jesus is praying for the 'world', then He is not praying for those who His Father loves.

God is a triune being with three Persons in the Godhead, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are in complete harmony with each other. So, why would Jesus not pray for the world(everybody whoever lived), when His Father loves the world(everybody whoever lived)? You have the Father and Son butting heads and not in agreement.

 

[trofimus]

Bro trofimus may I ask: Why are you NOT arminian? (Or should i say why dont you believe in free will, since im not arminian either).
What exactly is wrong with it that you wont accept it?

Can you define free will for me?

I do not accept the common claims of today's arminians, because:

1. I am not able to reconcile them with the reading of the Bible
2. I am not able to reconcile them with how I see God and his power, knowledge and attributes
3. I am not able to reconcile it with godliness
4. I am not able to reconcile it with logic
5. I am not able to reconcile it with my personal examination of myself, I can see that I always decide based on something outside of my will

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Well, I see Nero is up and handing out

the thumb downs.

 

[trofimus]

since im not arminian either

What do you accept, then? Does your view has a name? And, please, do not say "Bible" or something like that

 

[trofimus]

Bro trofimus may I ask: Why are you NOT arminian? (Or should i say why dont you believe in free will, since im not arminian either).
What exactly is wrong with it that you wont accept it?

And to make my position complete, I do not accept calvinism fully, because I think it inclines to despotism and the inner substance of God - love - seems to be pushed back. Calvinism teaches what God does, but is quite silent on the issue of "why" and cannot explain why it is the best what God can do.

Theologically, however, I see calvinism much closer to the truth and godliness than the "free will arminianism, God without power, God without knowledge" and similar.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

No i dont think we should just yell at people. But we shouldnt just show fake respect as if we respected their beliefs. I hate that fakeness in modern day christianity. Its so disgusting. Are people that lacking in street smarts they cant see when they are being shown FAKE RESPECT?
I dont expect a mormon to respect my beliefs, nor do I respect his.

But I also know that debates like that do nothing.

And i like it how you nor sackclothandashes didnt touch the fact that he called this idolater having a "KINDRED SPIRIT" from the other side.
Oy vey.

Page 25, post # 497 I addressed your post. Thanks my friend.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Theologically, however, I see calvinism much closer to the truth and godliness than the "free will arminianism, God without power, God without knowledge" and similar.

You are misrepresenting Arminianism (although I am not an Arminian). Now please note carefully from the Five Articles of the Remonstrants, that you have misrepresented them:

FREE WILL
'That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing.” '

"GOD WITHOUT POWER, GOD WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE"
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath and to condemn them as alienated from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.

Arminians rightly rejected Limited Atonement and Irresistible Grace. On the other hand they were not totally convinced of the eternal security of the believer as seen here:
'...But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind. '

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Arminius was of the reformed persuasion. Where he disagreed was with limited atonement.

 

[trofimus]

You are misrepresenting Arminianism (although I am not an Arminian). Now please note carefully from the Five Articles of the Remonstrants, that you have misrepresented them:

FREE WILL
'That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing.” '

"GOD WITHOUT POWER, GOD WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE"
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath and to condemn them as alienated from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.

Arminians rightly rejected Limited Atonement and Irresistible Grace. On the other hand they were not totally convinced of the eternal security of the believer as seen here:
'...But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind. '

By "free will arminianism, God without knowledge, God without power" I was not referring to historical arminianism, Jacob Arminius or remonstrants. Their theology was better than that of today's so called arminians.
I was referring to this thead or so called arminians, to "God without knowledge" (John146), "God without power" (biblebaptistbeliever) and similar.

But still, even the historical arminianism lacks some very important and biblical things in its system.

 

[Hevosmies]

Can you define free will for me?

What do you accept, then? Does your view has a name? And, please, do not say "Bible" or something like that

Free will simply means the ability to choose who you wish serve. You can choose road A or road B.
It doesn't mean you can choose to fly or breath underwater. Its not a super power.

If I was forced to pick between arminianism or calvinism I would choose arminianism.
But I think the best way to put it since what I believe doesnt have a name on it, and i cant say "the bible": Im an arminian until I get to the cross, then im a calvinist.

 

[trofimus]

Free will simply means the ability to choose who you wish serve. You can choose road A or road B.

Does God know that you will choose road A, is it certain from the beginning? Can He influence you that you will choose road A with a certainity?

 

[Hevosmies]

Does God know that you will choose road A, is it certain from the beginning? Can He influence you that you will choose road A with a certainity?

The ball is in our court now. God can and does influence all people

Titus 2:11; John 1:11

The reason people dont come to Jesus is because of the reasons mentioned above: They hate the light and their deeds are evil, and love darkness.

 

[trofimus]

The ball is in our court now. God can and does influence all people

Titus 2:11; John 1:11

The reason people dont come to Jesus is because of the reasons mentioned above: They hate the light and their deeds are evil, and love darkness.

Can God influence individuals effectivelly, i.e. to bring them to salvation, regardless what their state is, i.e. regardless how bad and sinful they are?

 

[Hevosmies]

Can God influence individuals effectivelly, i.e. to bring them to salvation, regardless what their state is, i.e. regardless how bad and sinful they are?

You are asking do I believe in irresistable grace. NO

Acts 7:51 the Holy Spirit CAN be resisted. and Is.