A BIBLICAL EXAMINATION OF CALVINISM

[Hevosmies]

Do you think that Christians should not show respect to oponents and should just shout at them, shake their fists etc?

No, even the first Church debated with its oponents in a respectful manner.

"Show proper respect to everyone"
1 Peter 2:17

No i dont think we should just yell at people. But we shouldnt just show fake respect as if we respected their beliefs. I hate that fakeness in modern day christianity. Its so disgusting. Are people that lacking in street smarts they cant see when they are being shown FAKE RESPECT?
I dont expect a mormon to respect my beliefs, nor do I respect his.

But I also know that debates like that do nothing.

And i like it how you nor sackclothandashes didnt touch the fact that he called this idolater having a "KINDRED SPIRIT" from the other side.
Oy vey.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

No i dont think we should just yell at people. But we shouldnt just show fake respect as if we respected their beliefs. I hate that fakeness in modern day christianity. Its so disgusting. Are people that lacking in street smarts they cant see when they are being shown FAKE RESPECT?
I dont expect a mormon to respect my beliefs, nor do I respect his.

But I also know that debates like that do nothing.

And i like it how you nor sackclothandashes didnt touch the fact that he called this idolater having a "KINDRED SPIRIT" from the other side.
Oy vey.

I answered it, my friend. Go back one page.

 

[John146]

"Show proper respect to everyone"
1 Peter 2:17

Are we to show respect to everyone, as in the elect?

Sorry brother, couldn't help myself.

 

[trofimus]

And i like it how you nor sackclothandashes didnt touch the fact that he called this idolater having a "KINDRED SPIRIT" from the other side.
Oy vey.

I do not know what "kindred" means But actually, I do not care, I do not want to make black or white judgement on people. I like many of James White videos, if he said something wrong, then what, should I just forget all good he said or taught? Use what is useful, do not use what is not useful, grow as much as you can.

 

[preacher4truth]

Great point bro!

Its ridicilous how calvinists INSIST the all in 2 peter 3:9 doesnt mean ALL.

Peter is addressing the elect, thus the verse there applies to the elect. Peter begins and continues this address from the beginning to the ending of the epistle.

But at the same time in Romans 3:10 it has to be ALL, EVERYONE is totally depraved and nobody can even seek God.

That's because Paul is there contextually speaking and showing how the whole world is lost in sin, thus the "all." That's the point of the passage at hand. Context once again determines the "all."

Oh yeah, about that what about this verse?:

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Yep, God does that. The context is that God is saving Gentiles and Jew. Thus verse 35 is speaking of the converted nature, a shock to the Jew that God would save Gentiles. Again, context. This is supported in the passage at hand and by commentators.

Note here: it should be observed, that though God accepts of such who fear him, and work righteousness from a right principle, and to a right end, without any regard to their being circumcised, or not circumcised, or to their being of this or the other nation, yet their fear of him, and working righteousness, are not the ground of their acceptance; but are to be considered as descriptive of the persons, who are accepted by him in Christ; for there is no acceptance of persons or services, but in Christ Jesus. -- John Gill

I challenge you to find any commentary that shows your interpretation that God accepts men because of their good deeds. Such an interpretation goes both against the Gospel and Scripture altogether.

This is the opposite of what calvinism teaches, AGAIN. They teach that if God "chooses us" based on something we do, thats God being a respector of persons, but Peter here says ABSOLUTELY the opposite, that if God just randomly picks some for no reason, THEN He would be a respector of persons.
Instead, those in every nation that fear God and work righteousness is accepted by God!

Nope, that isn't true about what Peter stated. Deal with what I've shown you.

Sorry for your rant, but you've taken the Scriptures out of context. You are not employing contextual exegesis, you're applying emotional and traditional eisegesis.

Calvinism just cant deal with the scriptures.

Reformed Calvinism implements the most consistent exegesis of Scripture across the board sir; 2 Timothy 2:15. You are failing to employ contextual exegesis in each Scriptural account you've shared above.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

But does the person need to do anything to be saved?

Repent and believe the gospel(good news). (Mark 1:15)

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Great point bro!

Its ridicilous how calvinists INSIST the all in 2 peter 3:9 doesnt mean ALL. But at the same time in Romans 3:10 it has to be ALL, EVERYONE is totally depraved and nobody can even seek God.
Oh yeah, about that what about this verse?:


Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

This is the opposite of what calvinism teaches, AGAIN. They teach that if God "chooses us" based on something we do, thats God being a respector of persons, but Peter here says ABSOLUTELY the opposite, that if God just randomly picks some for no reason, THEN He would be a respector of persons.
Instead, those in every nation that fear God and work righteousness is accepted by God!

Calvinism just cant deal with the scriptures.

I have a blog and I addressed 2 Peter 3:9. It’s quite lengthy, so I might have to make it into two posts. I used the NASB in it.


In today's churches, very little exegesis is being used, and eisegesis is being abused as you can tell by the state of said churches. I will attempt to clear the muddied water and tackle some verses that ppl want to misapply to fit their theology. I will use the NIV and, to a lesser extent, the NASB. So, here we go...
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.[2 Peter 3:9 NIV]
Now, ppl want to focus on the part of this verse that says not wanting anyone to perish and then say that God desires all to be saved. But, look at who the target audience is who Peter was writing to. In 2 Peter 1:1-2 he wrote Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. It was written to believers. The whole context of this second book Peter wrote is address to believers. Here are several examples of this truth:

His divine power has given us everything...[vs 3]
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises....[vs 4]
For we did not follow cleverly devised stories...[vs 16]
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture...[vs 20]
......just as there will be false teachers among you.[2 Peter 2:1]
In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories....[vs 3]
Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you....[2 Peter 3:1]
I want you to recall the words spoken....[vs 2]
Above all, you must understand that in the last days.....[vs 3]
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends:...[vs 8]
...Instead he is patient with you...[vs 9]

The context of 3:9 is that God is not willing any of His sheep would die lost. In Romans 8:28-30, we can see a clear chain...hence being referred to as the 'Golden Chain of Redemption', and all of this chain has them being linked to God's sovereign choice of those He elected to salvation. Look at how Paul wrote this...And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

First, we can see that God works for the good those who love Him. Now, who are the ones who love Him? The regenerate, the saved, as we can read Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. [1 John 4:7] Those who truly love God have been born of Him. He has given them a new heart and Spirit[Ezekiel 11:19 & Ezekiel 36:26]. So, those who love Him have been born of Him, and He works for the good of them.

Second, we can read that those who love Him, have been born of Him, and these who have been born of Him, He works for the good of them, these are those who are called according to His purpose. These are those who He foreknew. Now, this is not that foreseen faith where He looked down through the corridors of time to see those who would receive Him and He elected them accordingly, as this impugns His omniscience. The word 'foreknew', in context, means to be pre-arranged. Now, we can find God's foreknowledge in Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.[1 Peter 1:1-2] So, God's elect have been chosen based upon His foreknowledge, His pre-arrangement, in giving them to His Son to redeem for the world of lost ppl.

Third, we can read that those who love Him, are those who were born of Him, those who God works for their good, those who have been called according to His purpose, those He foreknew(pre-arranged), He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now, where ppl who don't understand predestination correctly go off the rails is they misunderstand it and accuse us of believing God predestines ppl to hell. They believe that any predestination is double predestination. That is not what most Calvinists believe. Now, I am sure there are some who hold to this gross error, but most mainstream Calvinists do not. When Adam fell, the whole human race fell, being in Adam. God had to do nothing to ensure their eternal ruin. However, by sending His Son to die for a MULTITUDE of undeserving sinners, He predestined them for heaven. So to understand predestination in its proper context is a most God-exalting doctrine. We can read where election took place in For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—[Ephesians 1:4-5] Before the beginning of time, He chose a ppl to give to His Son to redeem from the world of lost ppl.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Part two...

Fourth, we read that those who love Him, are those who were born of Him, those who God works for their good, those who have been called according to His purpose, those He foreknew(pre-arranged), those He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, He also called. Now, how is it that He calls ppl today? It is through the gospel of the Christ. We can read But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message? Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.[Romans 10:8-17] And also For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.[1 Corinthians 1:18-21] And lastly And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.[Ephesians 1:13] All of this links up. It takes the hearing of the gospel to bring ppl to faith in Christ. That is how God saves ppl.


Fifth, those who love Him, are those who have been born of Him, those who God works for their good, those who have been called according to His purpose, those He foreknew(pre-arranged), those He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, those He also called, He also justified. Now, how are ppl justified? It is by faith. As we can read Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.[Romans 5:1] Now, seeing that faith is a fruit of the Spirit, per Galatians 5:22, and those who are in the flesh(devoid of God’s Spirit in its proper context) can not possess a fruit of the Spirit, it shows that faith is a gift of God. See Romans 12:3 and Hebrews 12:2 as well. We can further read about God justifying ppl apart from works where However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.[Romans 4:5] And also Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.[Romans 8:33] And in Galatians 3:8 it states that God justifies the nations(heathen) by faith. So, if faith is innate within man and not a gift, man can justify himself, and voids all verses that state it is God who justifies.

Sixth, those who love Him, are those who have been born of Him, those who God works for their good, those who have been called according to His purpose, those He foreknew(pre-arranged), those He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, those He called, those He also justified, He also glorified. Now, what is glorification? It is that moment at the consummation of all things, where we are changed into the image of the Christ, given our glorified body, and appear in His likeness. We can find this where Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.[1 Corinthians 15:51-54] We are changed from mortal to immortal, from perishable to imperishable. What a day that will be for those who look forward to His coming in the cloud!!

So in closing, I have done my very best to show you how God is not willing that any of His ppl die lost. The context of 2 Peter 3:9 should bear this out, if you are willing to lay aside your presuppositions and allow the bible to teach you. We know that many will die eternally lost, away from the presence of God, and if God is not willing any should perish, many are dying in opposition to His will. Are you willing to say that aloud to others? Does God’s will triumph over man’s? Is He too weak to overcome man’s will? I’ll let you decide.

As you can tell, I used the Bible to prove my point. You may disagree with it, but I stayed in the Bible.

 

[Hevosmies]

Reformed Calvinism implements the most consistent exegesis of Scripture across the board sir; 2 Timothy 2:15. You are failing to employ contextual exegesis in each Scriptural account you've shared above.

Exegesis.

I have heard all the arguments from the reformed side already about 2 peter 3 and context, NOT CONVINCED. WHy dont you do that in 1 timothy 2:4 huh?

Just because the letter of Peter is talking to christians, doesnt mean God doesnt want all to come to repentance, as its stated in OTHER letters too.
By that "EXEGESIS" (word nobody uses in real life, btw, more theologybabble) [logic] NONE of the bible verses apply to lost men. But only to the "ELECT" since they were written to the elect, originally.

The context is Romans 3:10 isnt about individuals either, but groups of people jews and gentiles. Try again.
I agree it means all individuals. but you shouldnt, based on how you want us to "Exegete" other scriptures.

Try being a bit more consistent.

How many plumbers became calvinist after reading the Bible? Not that many. How many became calvinists after hearing some TEACHER somewhere, or went to some theological cemetary?

 

[UnderGrace]

Repent and believe the gospel(good news). (Mark 1:15)

But I believe you stated that repentance was a gift like faith is a gift, therefore neither does the person need to believe nor change their mind, God does it for them correct?

 

[Hevosmies]

I have a blog and I addressed 2 Peter 3:9. It’s quite lengthy, so I might have to make it into two posts. I used the NASB in it.

You are making my point for me. I just said earlier today that "calvinists have entire websites dedicated to twisting scriptures to suit their theology"

And here we see it. You posted a LOOONG post basically re-interpreting 2 peter 3:9 in a way that nobody could read it NATURALLY. The plain meaning of the text is thrown out and we are given a long blog "exegeting" the passage to suit calvinist dogma.

But you know what bro, I appreciate you trying to defend what you believe. I got no beef with that, maybe someone else will read it and be convinced. Me i've heard it all. I was just predestinated to not be a calvinist.

 

[UnderGrace]

Exegesis.

I have heard all the arguments from the reformed side already about 2 peter 3 and context, NOT CONVINCED. WHy dont you do that in 1 timothy 2:4 huh?

Just because the letter of Peter is talking to christians, doesnt mean God doesnt want all to come to repentance, as its stated in OTHER letters too.
By that "EXEGESIS" (word nobody uses in real life, btw, more theologybabble) [logic] NONE of the bible verses apply to lost men. But only to the "ELECT" since they were written to the elect, originally.

The context is Romans 3:10 isnt about individuals either, but groups of people jews and gentiles. Try again.
I agree it means all individuals. but you shouldnt, based on how you want us to "Exegete" other scriptures.

Try being a bit more consistent.

How many plumbers became calvinist after reading the Bible? Not that many. How many became calvinists after hearing some TEACHER somewhere, or went to some theological cemetary?

Just because the letter of Peter is talking to christians, doesnt mean God doesnt want all to come to repentance, as its stated in OTHER letters too.

Well it would seem to me that as believers they have already come to repentance, so it does not make logical sense unless Peter is preaching to the choir, why would Peter do this?

He is clearly expounding on the Gospel to the believers and teaching on the true grace of God.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

But I believe you stated that repentance was a gift like faith is a gift, therefore neither does the person need to believe nor change their mind, God does it for them correct?

The lost person is spiritually dead, my friend. Go to a dead person and hand the a gift. They can not reach out and take it. The lost person has no faith in God at all. Seeing we are justified by faith(Romans 5:1), the very moment one has faith, they’re justified(declared righteous before God). This faith comes by hearing(an external source not internal). However, God must first quicken them. As soon as they are quickened(faith & repentance are given the very moment they are quickened) they exercise them and are saved. All this happens at once.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

You are making my point for me. I just said earlier today that "calvinists have entire websites dedicated to twisting scriptures to suit their theology"

And here we see it. You posted a LOOONG post basically re-interpreting 2 peter 3:9 in a way that nobody could read it NATURALLY. The plain meaning of the text is thrown out and we are given a long blog "exegeting" the passage to suit calvinist dogma.

But you know what bro, I appreciate you trying to defend what you believe. I got no beef with that, maybe someone else will read it and be convinced. Me i've heard it all. I was just predestinated to not be a calvinist.

And this is why I said I didn’t want to defend my position, @UnderGrace . I gave my defense and was quickly shot down.

 

[Hevosmies]

And this is why I said I didn’t want to defend my position, @UnderGrace . I gave my defense and was quickly shot down.

I apologize for that. But would you have done the same for me? had I posted a blog defending what I believE? Most likely it would of been "shot down" by the calvinist side as well.

Thats obviously going to happen. I realize you will not change your mind on this, and I wont either.

 

[UnderGrace]

The lost person is spiritually dead, my friend. Go to a dead person and hand the a gift. They can not reach out and take it. The lost person has no faith in God at all. Seeing we are justified by faith(Romans 5:1), the very moment one has faith, they’re justified(declared righteous before God). This faith comes by hearing(an external source not internal). However, God must first quicken them. As soon as they are quickened(faith & repentance are given the very moment they are quickened) they exercise them and are saved. All this happens at once.

So God quickens them, they have no say in the matter.

Why then are not more Muslims quickened and those of other traditions, the majority of believers are in developed countries, is God a respecter of persons?

 

[John146]

You are making my point for me. I just said earlier today that "calvinists have entire websites dedicated to twisting scriptures to suit their theology"

And here we see it. You posted a LOOONG post basically re-interpreting 2 peter 3:9 in a way that nobody could read it NATURALLY. The plain meaning of the text is thrown out and we are given a long blog "exegeting" the passage to suit calvinist dogma.

But you know what bro, I appreciate you trying to defend what you believe. I got no beef with that, maybe someone else will read it and be convinced. Me i've heard it all. I was just predestinated to not be a calvinist.

If all one had was the word of God, there is no way he would ever come up with the Calvinist point of view.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I apologize for that. But would you have done the same for me? had I posted a blog defending what I believE? Most likely it would of been "shot down" by the calvinist side as well.

Thats obviously going to happen. I realize you will not change your mind on this, and I wont either.

I would read it, my friend. Look, I went from semi-Pelagianism, Modalism, Arianism to where I am today. I am teachable. But people must come to me with scripture.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

So God quickens them, they have no say in the matter.

Why then are not more Muslims quickened and those of other traditions, the majority of believers are in developed countries, is God a respecter of persons?

If someone flatlines and they do CPR, we’re they active when they cae back, my friend? We were dead in sin and God had to quicken us.

 

[Hevosmies]

If all one had was the word of God, there is no way he would ever come up with the Calvinist point of view.

Yup! That is true. It would be absolutely impossible.
I dare anyone to give a regular plumber a bible, see if he comes out believing the TULIP.

NO he wont.