A BIBLICAL EXAMINATION OF CALVINISM

[PennEd]

What you are describing is the foreknowledge of God. He knew before He did anything else how many would choose Him and how many would reject Him. I heartily agree with you on that.

This view precludes any notion that God actually picked who would choose Him, and thus . . . I believe, is the biblical view. Knowing something is world's different from causing something to happen.

God knows beforehand who will choose him, and in the light of that, I believe that He blesses that person even before they are saved in the sense of preparing him for the ministry that he will later have after he receives Christ.

Matthew 10:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a [a]copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground APART from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

So God is in control of the tiniest detail of His Creation, down to whether a sparrow dies, yet He isn't in control of who is saved?


Simply Incredible!

 

[Hevosmies]

Where did I say it doesn't mean knowing something beforehand???? That's right, I didn't.

If you were to seriously study the doctrine, drop your presuppositions and adding into it what you think it entails, then you'd realize the error of the false definitions and outcomes up above. But I seriously doubt you can lose your pride and traditions and accomplish that. It would mean you'd have to admit you are wrong.

You said it here when you responded to BaptistBibleBeliever who spoke of foreknowledge.
You responded to it saying thats not biblical foreknowledge.

Well WHAT IS?

Another example of what I always say: calvinism is a moving target. You can never pin these guys down.
I supposedly misrepresented what he said when he said "Thats not biblical foreknowledge" to a post that DEFINED biblical foreknowledge as knowing things beforehand!

Pay attention now people!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This seems like a lot of mental gymnastics to get around what the bible ACTUALLY teaches.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Alongside grasping John 12:32, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself"...

I addressed John 6:44 in a post on Sept 14 (Post #116):

https://christianchat.com/threads/who-are-the-inspired-scriptures-directed-to.179175/post-3709952

[note the WHEN of things ^ at that post]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Matthew 10:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a [a]copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground APART from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

So God is in control of the tiniest detail of His Creation, down to whether a sparrow dies, yet He isn't in control of who is saved?


Simply Incredible!

Where is the word "will" (whether "boule [G1012]" or "thelema [G2307]" or any other Grk word that means "will") found in this verse ^ ?

https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/10-29.htm

Not.

"apart from your Father." That's it.

No "will" word is found there.

 

[trofimus]

Where is the word "will" (whether "boule [G1012]" or "thelema [G2307]" or any other Grk word that means "will") found in this verse ^ ?

https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/10-29.htm

Not.

"apart from your Father." That's it.

No "will" word is found there.

True, but áneu implies the will or knowledge.

áneu – properly, "without, i.e. without one's will or intervention (used with this meaning from Homer on" (J. Thayer).
HELPS Word-studies

 

[John146]

Matthew 10:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a [a]copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground APART from your Father’s will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

So God is in control of the tiniest detail of His Creation, down to whether a sparrow dies, yet He isn't in control of who is saved?


Simply Incredible!

These verses give us God's knowledge not God's will. The NKJV is incorrect in its wording.

29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

This seems like a lot of mental gymnastics to get around what the bible ACTUALLY teaches.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That is dealt with in the OP, and you would have seen it - had you read it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Another poster had covered well the CONTEXT of Matthew 10, so I won't get into all of that, but just wanted to place this excerpt, a quote by Gaebelein (where later in his commentary, he covers the verse presently under discussion):

[quoting]

"For instance, in the sixth verse we read: “Go not off into the way of the Gentiles, and into a city of Samaritans enter ye not; but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel .” This is a limited sphere. They had nothing to do and could have nothing to do with the Gentiles nor with Samaritans. After the death and resurrection of our Lord the Gospel was to be preached, beginning in Jerusalem, in Samaria, to the uttermost parts of the earth. The lost sheep of the house of Israel, that much “spiritualized” phrase, were not Gentiles, nor were they the church, for a church was not and could not be then. Their preaching was only this text: “The Kingdom of the heavens has drawn nigh.” What does it mean? It meant that the promised Kingdom for Israel, and through Israel to the nations, the Kingdom with all its earthly blessings, was about to come. It was heralding the fact of the presence of the King to set up the Kingdom, if His own would have it. Such a preaching of the Kingdom of the heavens is not given now. After the church age closes by the removal of the church from the earth into heaven, as foreshadowed by the vessel which Peter saw coming out of heaven and again received into heaven, then the kingdom will again draw nigh in the person of the returning King and Lord with His saints."

--Arno C Gaebelein, Matthew 10 Commentary [source: Bible Hub]

[end of quoting]

 

[trofimus]

These verses give us God's knowledge not God's will.

Generally, how can you separate God's knowledge and God's will, when you know that He is the Creator?

To say "God knew what will happen if He will create this universe and He created it without His will" does not seem to be too logical.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

True, but áneu implies the will or knowledge.

áneu – properly, "without, i.e. without one's will or intervention (used with this meaning from Homer on" (J. Thayer).
HELPS Word-studies

The point seemingly being presented was more along the lines of determinism or something like that... that God WILLS every single thing that happens, and wrote the entire script before time began (and no one and nothing can DO anything outside this pre-written script).

But this goes against what Lk7:29-30 shows us (and this verse uses the STRONGEST word for "will"--the same word Calvinists point out in Ephesians 1:11, to make their case),

"29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel [G1012 - boulen/ boule] of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."


[from Bible Hub]

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012 /boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [con't] "...i.e. (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose -- + advise, counsel, will."... "decree"

 

[PennEd]

Where is the word "will" (whether "boule [G1012]" or "thelema [G2307]" or any other Grk word that means "will") found in this verse ^ ?

https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/10-29.htm

Not.

"apart from your Father." That's it.

No "will" word is found there.

Well done!

However, it doesn't change the meaning of the text as explained by Trofimus. Here are many translations from the cite you posted from:
SUM PIC XRF DEV STU
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father's care.

New Living Translation
What is the price of two sparrows--one copper coin? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it.

English Standard Version
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

Berean Study Bible
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.

Berean Literal Bible
Are not two sparrows sold for an assarion? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

New American Standard Bible
"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

King James Bible
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

Christian Standard Bible
Aren't two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father's consent.

Contemporary English Version
Aren't two sparrows sold for only a penny? But your Father knows when any one of them falls to the ground.

Good News Translation
For only a penny you can buy two sparrows, yet not one sparrow falls to the ground without your Father's consent.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Aren't two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father's consent.

International Standard Version
"Two sparrows are sold for a penny, aren't they? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father's permission.

NET Bible
Aren't two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.

New Heart English Bible
"Are not two sparrows sold for an assarion coin? Not one of them falls on the ground apart from your Father's will,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny, and not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father?”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"Aren't two sparrows sold for a penny? Not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father's permission.

New American Standard 1977
“Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? And one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

King James 2000 Bible
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

American King James Version
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

American Standard Version
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father.

Darby Bible Translation
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall to the ground without your Father;

English Revised Version
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father:

Webster's Bible Translation
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father.

Weymouth New Testament
Do not two sparrows sell for a halfpenny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father's leave.

World English Bible
"Aren't two sparrows sold for an assarion coin? Not one of them falls on the ground apart from your Father's will,

Young's Literal Translation
'Are not two sparrows sold for an assar? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father;


Some say the Will. Some say Consent, Some say Leave, but ALL convey that they don't die outside His Will.

 

[PennEd]

The point seemingly being presented was more along the lines of determinism or something like that... that God WILLS every single thing that happens, and wrote the entire script before time began (and no one and nothing can DO anything outside this pre-written script).

But this goes against what Lk7:29-30 shows us (and this verse uses the STRONGEST word for "will"--the same word Calvinists point out in Ephesians 1:11, to make their case),

"29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel [G1012 - boulen/ boule] of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."


[from Bible Hub]

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012 /boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]

Yup...

The wisest man who ever lived came to that conclusion. That's why he was so bummed about all the stuff he did or enjoyed. He KNEW it was ALL already done.

 

[trofimus]

The point seemingly being presented was more along the lines of determinism or something like that... that God WILLS every single thing that happens, and wrote the entire script before time began (and no one and nothing can DO anything outside this pre-written script).

Do you think that something happens without God's foreknowledge before the creation of the world? And if he did create this world, it must mean that He thinks that everything what happens in this world is permissible for the final goal.

I do not say that moral evil (sin) is his direct and positive will, but he counted with it in his plan, therefore its his permissive will.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ PennEd, see my posts #110 & #111. Thanks.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Do you think that something happens without God's foreknowledge before the creation of the world? And if he did create this world, it must mean that He thinks that everything what happens in this world is permissible for the final goal.

I do not say that moral evil (sin) is his direct and positive will, but he counted with it in his plan, therefore its his permissive will.

Right. And that's why I was pointing out the distinction between "G1012 - boule/boulen" and "G2307 - thelema".

Some like to say that no one can resist or reject His "G1012 - boule/boulen"-will ('decree' / 'will'), but Lk7:29-30 says otherwise. (The Pharisees and lawyers of this context did.)


________
"31 Therefore you should not fear; you are worth more than many sparrows."

 

[John146]

Generally, how can you separate God's knowledge and God's will, when you know that He is the Creator?

To say "God knew what will happen if He will create this universe and He created it without His will" does not seem to be too logical.

God knows when I sin. He knows when I'm disobedient. However, it is not God's will that I sin and be disobedient.

Example: God knows when a man rapes a child. However, it was not God's will that the man rape the child.

 

[trofimus]

Right. And that's why I was pointing out the distinction between "G1012 - boule/boulen" and "G2307 - thelema".

Some like to say that no one can resist or reject His "G1012 - boule/boulen"-will ('decree' / 'will'), but Lk7:29-30 says otherwise.

If you want to propose a significant difference between boulen and theléma in the biblical use, it would require to search all the NT and see the usage, to decide whether these terms really always differ or whether they are synonymous...

It would be interesting to see.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You cannot just invent your ideas and say "its what you say, its what you think". I wonder that you cant grasp this simple logic.

One does not have to study Calvin to know that Five Point Calvinism is also spelled out in the Westminster Confession of Faith as well as the 1689 London Baptist Confession. You can find Five Point Calvinism - TULIP -- on any Reformed web site.

 

[trofimus]

One does not have to study Calvin to know that Five Point Calvinism is also spelled out in the Westminster Confession of Faith as well as the 1689 London Baptist Confession. You can find Five Point Calvinism - TULIP -- on any Reformed web site.

Good, if you wish to attack westminster confession of faith, do it. But quote it and read it. Do not speculate what it may possible say.