Sabbath

tourist · Oct 21, 2018

It's that word "Remember" that trip up some peeps who find keeping the Sabbath holy to be a major inconvenience for their weekend plans. That's the only commandment that we told to remember, but then, there are some who believe the 10 commandments are obsolete anyway.

mailmandan · Oct 21, 2018

tourist said:

Did you read post #1,644?

lightbearer · Oct 21, 2018

mailmandan said:

Sure you did. And once again nothing you posted addresses the facts of the post to which you responded.

mailmandan said:

That is a really bad translation. Context does demand that χειρόγραφον; the handwriting be translated a certificate of debt; though it will work. Nothing in the Greek will translate to consist. That is a paraphrase. The clause is in the Dative and has a definite article. It should translate, "handwriting to the decrees" (ordinances) that were against us. Please notice it is not the ordinances themselves but the handwriting to them or if you like the certificate of indebtedness to the decrees. Not the decrees or ordinances which Moses penned (handwritten) but that which was against us. And certainly not the Decalogue. The handwriting to the decrees are That which was mandated due to our hardheartedness; our sinning.

Verse 16 is being stated in context to verse fourteen. The word "therefore" in verse sixteen connects what is about to be said to what was previously stated in verse 14. The meat, drink, holyday, new moon and sabbath days mentioned are those in which are contained in the Book of the Law. The handwritten to the ordinances. The Handwriting to the Decrees. Not the Decrees themselves and certainly not the Decalogue.

Thayer writes this in regards to the word in his unabridged work:
χειρόγραφον, χειρογραφου, τό (χείρ and γράφω), a handwriting; what one has written with his own hand (Polybius 30, 8, 4; Dionysius Halicarnassus 5, 8; others); specifically, a note of hand, or writing in which one acknowledges that money has either been deposited with him or lent to him by another, to he returned at an appointed time (Tob_5:3 Tob_9:5; Plutarch, mor., p. 829 a. de vitand. aere al. 4, 3; Artemidorus Daldianus, oneir. 3, 40); metaphorically, applied in Col_2:14 ((where R. V. bond)) to the Mosaic law, which shews men to be chargeable with offences for which they must pay the penalty.

JesusLives · Oct 21, 2018

mailmandan said:

SDA's were not the only ones that were being legalistic when I was a kid... My Baptist and Methodist friends complained of not being able to dance or do this or that.

I was led to believe back then that eating wrong, dressing wrong, wearing jewelry etc. would get you a ticket to hell. I was afraid to do anything cause as a kid who wants to burn in hell?

Well I grew up and so did a lot of the churches... I realized if I wear a ring I won't be sent to hell, or if I eat meat, or wear a sleeveless top or shorts no it's not a sentence to hell. Churches most all of them don't pound hell for doing minor things ie, dancing or going to movies and things that they harped on when I was a kid. SDA's aren't anymore legalistic than the next guy and it is same with the membership.... one person will be more legalistic than the next you can find them in all the churches.

Mailman Dan when have I ever said to you that you won't go to heaven if you don't go to church on Sabbath? So why would you assume that I believe that I won't go to heaven if I don't go to church on 7th day Sabbath?

I will be saved the same way you are which is by the blood of Jesus who paid the price for both of our sins. I really like you as you are my friend. We just happen to agree to disagree about what the law of God is. When they gave the command love God with all your heart and your neighbor they also said that the whole law hung upon these two commands. Jesus came to fulfill the law not to abolish or change it. God changes not he is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

You believe the law was changed I don't believe it was changed I believe it was fulfilled we just believe differently. God is in control and if changes need to be made the Bible tells us that He who began the work in you will finish it to completion. So as long as we both have given our hearts to God it is His and Holy Spirits work to complete the work in both of us. In the meantime we are to love each other in brother/sisterly love. Which I know we both want to do.

JesusLives · Oct 21, 2018

DiscipleDave said:

Amen, and Scriptures are CLEAR what His Commandment are:

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment, That we should 1) believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, AND 2) love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.

Woe to anyone who teaches His Commandments are contrary to what the Apostle John plainly and clearly just told us what His Commandments are. Woe to them indeed. The Apostle John Clearly tells us what His Commandments are 1) believe on Jesus and 2) Love One Another. Woe to those who add to that, such as to keep His Commandments we MUST keep the Sabbath too. They are deceived and know not the TRUTH, do not hearken to them, but hearken to the Apostle John who plainly tells us what His Commandments are. Believe the Word of God, not what humans teach you.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Bible also said that upon these two commands hangs the whole law not just part of it. We agree to disagree.

mailmandan · Oct 21, 2018

lightbearer said:

Paul clearly tells us that God cancelled the written code with it's regulations. Colossians 2:13-17 (NASB) 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, (Ephesians 2:15 - by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross..) 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

These "shadow laws" are NOT to be enforced on Christians as they were shadows of things that were to come and the reality found their fulfillment in Christ. Why live in the shadows of the old covenant and deny the fulfillment of Christ that is found in the new covenant?

The order of Sabbaths, the new moons, and the festivals is clear and distinct, There can be no mistaking that this refers to the weekly, monthly and the seasonal festivals. Throughout the Old Testament, the same construction is used. The weekly, the monthly, the seasonal, and sometimes the yearly or sabbatical years are included. Sometimes the order is reversed, but the same principle applies.

The sabbaths being referred to in Colossians 2:16-17 are therefore referring to the seventh-day Sabbaths. It would be redundant and totally out of literary character for this to refer to the appointed feasts. To make it do so would make the passage read, Let no one judge you regarding FESTIVALS, new moons, or FESTIVALS. That would make no sense.

In Colossians 2: 16-17, Paul discusses the last 2 Jewish distinctives: 1) food laws, and 2) festivals, new moons, or the Sabbaths. According to Paul these were part of the system that prefigured, or pointed forward to Christ. Therefore, they were just a shadow of things to come. Christ is preeminent, Jesus is Lord!!

Sabbatarians of all kind are quick to point out that the Sabbaths under discussion could not be the weekly seventh day Sabbath, because it is an eternal institution, and is morally binding on all people for all time. However, I have discovered that this same sentence construction is found in the Old Testament in either ascending or descending order, repeated many times over. The sabbaths in this common Old Testament construction always refer to the weekly Sabbath. To make this Colossians passage refer to ceremonial festival sabbaths ignores this construction.

Leviticus 23 lists all the religious feasts, with the seventh day Sabbath on top, followed by other festivals. Here are a few examples:

and at every presentation of a burnt offering to the LORD on the Sabbaths and on the New Moons and on the set feasts, by number according to the ordinance governing them, regularly before the LORD. 1 Chronicles 23: 30-31

Behold, I am building a temple for the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to Him, to burn before Him sweet incense, for the continual shewbread, for the burnt offerings morning and evening on the Sabbaths, on the New Moons, and on the set feasts of the LORD our God. 2 Chronicles 2: 4

I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her New Moons, her Sabbath all her appointed feasts. And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, of which she has said, These are my wages that my lovers have given to me. Hosea 2: 11-12

Even Samuele Bacchiocchi (noted sabbatarian author) admits that this is the case. He agrees that the weekly Sabbath is what is being referred to here. (Samuele Bacchiocchi, Sabbath Under Crossfire {Biblical Perspectives, 1998} p.245-248)*

To underline his warning against Jewish Judaizers who were telling the Gentile Christians that they must keep the Sabbath and the other feasts, Paul wrote to the young Galatian believers,

But now after you have known God, or rather known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain. Galatians 4:9-11

gb9 · Oct 21, 2018

mailmandan said:

Paul clearly tells us that God cancelled the written code with it's regulations. Colossians 2:13-17 (NASB) 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, (Ephesians 2:15 - by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross..) 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

These "shadow laws" are NOT to be enforced on Christians as they were shadows of things that were to come and the reality found their fulfillment in Christ. Why live in the shadows of the old covenant and deny the fulfillment of Christ that is found in the new covenant?

The order of Sabbaths, the new moons, and the festivals is clear and distinct, There can be no mistaking that this refers to the weekly, monthly and the seasonal festivals. Throughout the Old Testament, the same construction is used. The weekly, the monthly, the seasonal, and sometimes the yearly or sabbatical years are included. Sometimes the order is reversed, but the same principle applies.

The sabbaths being referred to in Colossians 2:16-17 are therefore referring to the seventh-day Sabbaths. It would be redundant and totally out of literary character for this to refer to the appointed feasts. To make it do so would make the passage read, Let no one judge you regarding FESTIVALS, new moons, or FESTIVALS. That would make no sense.

In Colossians 2: 16-17, Paul discusses the last 2 Jewish distinctives: 1) food laws, and 2) festivals, new moons, or the Sabbaths. According to Paul these were part of the system that prefigured, or pointed forward to Christ. Therefore, they were just a shadow of things to come. Christ is preeminent, Jesus is Lord!!

Sabbatarians of all kind are quick to point out that the Sabbaths under discussion could not be the weekly seventh day Sabbath, because it is an eternal institution, and is morally binding on all people for all time. However, I have discovered that this same sentence construction is found in the Old Testament in either ascending or descending order, repeated many times over. The sabbaths in this common Old Testament construction always refer to the weekly Sabbath. To make this Colossians passage refer to ceremonial festival sabbaths ignores this construction.

Leviticus 23 lists all the religious feasts, with the seventh day Sabbath on top, followed by other festivals. Here are a few examples:

and at every presentation of a burnt offering to the LORD on the Sabbaths and on the New Moons and on the set feasts, by number according to the ordinance governing them, regularly before the LORD. 1 Chronicles 23: 30-31

Behold, I am building a temple for the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to Him, to burn before Him sweet incense, for the continual shewbread, for the burnt offerings morning and evening on the Sabbaths, on the New Moons, and on the set feasts of the LORD our God. 2 Chronicles 2: 4

I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her New Moons, her Sabbath all her appointed feasts. And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, of which she has said, These are my wages that my lovers have given to me. Hosea 2: 11-12

Even Samuele Bacchiocchi (noted sabbatarian author) admits that this is the case. He agrees that the weekly Sabbath is what is being referred to here. (Samuele Bacchiocchi, Sabbath Under Crossfire {Biblical Perspectives, 1998} p.245-248)*

To underline his warning against Jewish Judaizers who were telling the Gentile Christians that they must keep the Sabbath and the other feasts, Paul wrote to the young Galatian believers,

But now after you have known God, or rather known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain. Galatians 4:9-11

see, there is nothing wrong with a person choosing to keep the Sabbath. but, when one makes it a requirement for salvation, that is wrong. and unbiblical.

lightbearer · Oct 21, 2018

mailmandan said:

You did not even address the facts of the post to which you responded.
Context does not demand that χειρόγραφον; the handwriting, be translated a certificate of debt; though it will work. Nothing in the Greek will translate to consist. That is a paraphrase. The clause is in the Dative and has a definite article. It should translate, "handwriting to the decrees" (ordinances) that were against us. Please notice it is not the ordinances themselves but the handwriting to them or if you like the certificate of indebtedness to the decrees. Not the decrees or ordinances which Moses penned (handwritten) but that which was against us. And certainly not the Decalogue. The handwriting to the decrees are That which was mandated due to our hardheartedness; our sinning.

Verse 16 is being stated in context to verse fourteen. The word "therefore" in verse sixteen connects what is about to be said to what was previously stated in verse 14. The meat, drink, holyday, new moon and sabbath days mentioned are those in which are contained in the Book of the Law. The handwritten to the ordinances. The Handwriting to the Decrees. Not the Decrees themselves and certainly not the Decalogue.

mailmandan · Oct 21, 2018

JesusLives said:

Then we would both agree. Legalism should not be allowed in the church.

I primarily find legalism in churches that promote salvation by works. I grew up in the RCC and it had it's legalistic tendency's. I had also temporarily spent some time in the church of Christ and they condemned musical instruments in worship.

I was just asking to be sure. I was not implying that you surely believe that. The SDA church has crossed that line - http://www.nonsda.org/study8.shtml And apparently so have individuals in the Worldwide church of Christ (Armstrongism). I have an elderly man on my mail route that is always pushing keeping the Sabbath day as a means to salvation. His neighbors cringe when they see him walking down the street and they banned him from the old folks home because he would enter into the break room there which was full of senior citizens and start arguments with everyone about the Sabbath and get them all riled up, so you can see why it's a touchy subject with me!

I like you too and also consider you as my friend.

Now if the law of Moses bears the same relationship to us today, in terms of its binding status, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what He came to do. On the other hand, if Jesus did accomplish His goal, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal institution today. Further, if the law of Moses was not fulfilled by Jesus and remains as a binding legal system for today—then it is not just partially binding. Rather, it is a totally compelling system. Jesus plainly said that not one jot or tittle would pass away until all was fulfilled. Consequently, nothing of the law was to fail until it had completely accomplished its purpose and Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus fulfilled all of the law.

We are not under the law, but under grace, yet I clearly explained my position in posts #1,642 and #1,644.

lightbearer · Oct 21, 2018

gb9 said:

Amen! No one here is saying that that I can see.

UnderGrace · Oct 21, 2018

gb9 said:

Well I wonder about this sometimes, if we are dead to the law, are we not dead to the law?

The requirements of the Sabbath have been fulfilled in Jesus, having a day of rest and worship is not really keeping the Sabbath is it?

UnderGrace · Oct 21, 2018

mailmandan said:

Then we would both agree. Legalism should not be allowed in the church.

I primarily find legalism in churches that promote salvation by works. I grew up in the RCC and it had it's legalistic tendency's. I had also temporarily spent some time in the church of Christ and they condemned musical instruments in worship.

I was just asking to be sure. I was not implying that you surely believe that. The SDA church has crossed that line - http://www.nonsda.org/study8.shtml And apparently so have individuals in the Worldwide church of Christ (Armstrongism). I have an elderly man on my mail route that is always pushing keeping the Sabbath day as a means to salvation. His neighbors cringe when they see him walking down the street and they banned him from the old folks home because he would enter into the break room there which was full of senior citizens and start arguments with everyone about the Sabbath and get them all riled up, so you can see why it's a touchy subject with me!

I like you too and also consider you as my friend.

Now if the law of Moses bears the same relationship to us today, in terms of its binding status, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what He came to do. On the other hand, if Jesus did accomplish His goal, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal institution today. Further, if the law of Moses was not fulfilled by Jesus and remains as a binding legal system for today—then it is not just partially binding. Rather, it is a totally compelling system. Jesus plainly said that not one jot or tittle would pass away until all was fulfilled. Consequently, nothing of the law was to fail until it had completely accomplished its purpose and Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus fulfilled all of the law.

We are not under the law, but under grace, yet I clearly explained my position in posts #1,642 and #1,644.

Agree it is still legalism and that is the problem.

gb9 · Oct 21, 2018

lightbearer said:

go look in a mirror. you will see .

mailmandan · Oct 21, 2018

gb9 said:

If someone wants to keep the Sabbath day (rest on Saturday and call that keeping the Sabbath day apart from all the other regulations that were attached to it from the Mosaic law) that's fine with me. Just don't be getting in my face telling me that I must keep it or else! There was a SDA who was recently here for a very short time before getting banned who said, "anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people" -- still applies today.

Another former SDA member who is no longer with us made this statement below, which clearly demonstrates that he teaches salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

lightbearer · Oct 21, 2018

gb9 said:

Repost where that was posted by my hand and I will recant.

mailmandan · Oct 21, 2018

lightbearer said:

More SDA propaganda. 2 Corinthians 3:6 - who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. Oh, certainly not the Decalogue, which was a ministry of death.

The law on our heart and mind is the love of the Spirit, not the law of the letter. This is why Paul tells us that the new covenant is a covenant of the Spirit, and not of the letter.

gb9 · Oct 21, 2018

lightbearer said:

You are absolutely correct.
And to my knowledge no one has here.
However because we are saved we Worship GOD and not idols. We do not take the LORD'S name in vain. We keep Sabbath. We do not kill or bear false witness. We honor our fathers and our mothers. We do not steal, covet or commit adultery.
GOD is Love. Love fulfills the Law and as HE is so are we in this world. Because It is HE that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure. Christ in us the hope of Glory.

right here. your own words.

i'll be waiting on your apology .

JesusLives · Oct 21, 2018

God's Final Judgments Against the Wicked

How does one explain away Isaiah 66:
…22“For just as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, “so your descendants and your name will endure. 23From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come to worship before Me,” says the LORD. 24“As they go forth, they will see the corpses of the men who have rebelled against Me; for their worm will never die, their fire will never be quenched, and they will be a horror to all mankind.”…

mailmandan · Oct 21, 2018

JesusLives said:

Does Isaiah 66:23 teach that Christians will observe the weekly Sabbath in the new heaven? If Isaiah 66:23 teaches that we will keep the Jewish weekly Sabbath in the new heaven, then it also teaches we will keep the Jewish New Moon festival in heaven as well. "And it shall be from new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all mankind will come to bow down before Me, says the Lord” - Isaiah 66:23.

If one insists on Sabbath observances based on Isaiah 66:23, they one also needs to observe new moons as well. Yet from what I hear, most Sabbatarian’s don’t observe new moons.

Will there be Levital Priests in the new heaven? If Isaiah 66:23 teaches that we will keep the Jewish Sabbath in the new heaven, then it also teaches in Isaiah 66:21 that the Levitical priests will be in the new heaven, because it is also mentioned.

What happened to the Levitical Priesthood under the new covenant terms? Priesthood changed so did the law. Hebrews 7:12 - For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

lightbearer · Oct 21, 2018

gb9 said:

You might want to reread that. Nowhere does it state that we keep the Sabbath to be saved.
HERE....
However because we are saved we Worship GOD and not idols. We do not take the LORD'S name in vain. We keep Sabbath. We do not kill or bear false witness. We honor our fathers and our mothers. We do not steal, covet or commit adultery.
GOD is Love. Love fulfills the Law and as HE is so are we in this world. Because It is HE that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure. Christ in us the hope of Glory.

mailmandan said:

And you still haven't addressed the facts related in the post.

Sabbath

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