In Eph 1, do you believe that God choose an elect people, if so, does elect mean a part of, and not the whole? In Romans 9:11, does this not affirm that not all are elect?
What did Jesus mean when He said...
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However they were not saved the way we are today (post cross). When we die today we go directly to heaven.
Yes it does, as is obvious that not all people believe. But elected for what. To be among the few that are saved? Or to do Gods will here on Earth until the last day when the salvation actually happens.
Eph 1
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Now this could look like it is saying only those that believe in their first life, but then you would have to ignore the other verses in the Bible that say all peoples will be bless through Him. The ones that say He is the head of all men. Even in you Ephesian 1 reference it ends as such confirming it as you can clearly see above. "Him that filleth all in all." That statement can not be ignored.
And like many others it easily changes the context and brings the true Gospel to light that was never questioned by believers or non believers during Jesus's time here, the time of the disciples all the way up until the Romans got power over the churches.
Paul mentions several times in scripture that all people are saved. So you have to know that this means all people or you have a serious contradiction in scripture. If it does mean all people, and it does, there are no contradictions.
Here is the same Paul in Philippians:
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
And knowing that all that come to Him, none should be turned away... Just another of many..
and Colossians
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.
Here are just a few from before the Book of Ephesians. There are many place where the Bible states simply all men will be saved. Anyone who knows and excepts these verses as scripture, and they are, will automatically know that in Ephesians 1 Paul is talking about all people. As did everyone back then and most up until the time of the Romans new preaching. Do some research on it. It was commonly known fact that Jesus claimed to be the Savior of all mankind. This , "You must come to believe before you die" nonsense is a relatively new preaching that only started with the roman catholic church. Who are nothing like the original Church in any way shape of form.
John 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
God gave all beings to Christ that he might save them. "Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." John 17:2 This plainly evinces, that it was God's design, in giving Christ dominion over all flesh, that they should all enjoy eternal life.
It is certain that Christ will save all that the Father hath given him. "All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in nowise cast out." John 6:37 These three propositions are irrefragable evidence of the final happiness of all men. 1st. God hath given all things to Christ. 2 All that God hath given him shall come to him; and 3 him that cometh he will in nowise cast out. All are given; all shall come; and none shall be cast out. What is the unavoidable conclusion?
So short with me?
Have you nothing to bring to the discussion besides insults.
Can you show in the verses I posted where I am misunderstanding them?
Or are you just a heckler?
Not according to scripture. We go to the grave awaiting the resurrection.
But the point wasn't about where you go. It was about the narrow road.
If you truly love Jesus, you will keep his commands. And He said if you do
Him and the Father will come to you and you will never taste death.
Only two have not tasted death. the narrow road.
As for the rest of mankind, they are dead and dying in sin. The wide road.
Hence the need for salvation on THE LAST DAY.
When He returns with all Gods angels and raises the dead,
first being the saints.
As for the Romans reference:
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
The who is over all is a powerful statement. Christ is the head of every man comes to mind.
But for 9:11
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
They did nothing to earn the calling but were not called to salvation, though all will be saved.
They were called and prepared by God for another reason. You only have to read on to see what.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
At the last day Christ's angels will gather together all of The elect, which is not all mankind according to The Greek meaning of "elect" = picked out, chosen, select, that is, the best of it's kind or class (mankind) excellence preeminent, applied to certain individual Christians, so, not all mankind is going to heaven. There are a lot of terms in the scriptures that are directed to the elect. Eph 1, God choose his elect before the foundation of the world and predetermined that Christ would adopt them as his children by paying the price of their adoption on the cross. 1st step of adoption = God choose them. 2nd step = Jesus paid the adoption price. 3rd phase of the adoption is when Christ comes back and takes them home.
Rom 9:3-4-5, The adoption mentioned in Eph 1:5 is pertaining to Israel,(Rom 9:5) which is representative of God's elect, because God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel, (Gen 32:28) and (Gen 35:10). Isaiah 59:20-21 - And the Redeemer (Jesus) shall come to Zion (his church, which he is the husband of), and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord, my spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever. Saved, salvation, save according to the Greek translation means "a deliverance". In most of the salvation scriptures that use these words are pertaining to deliverance received here on earth, and not eternal deliverance. which makes a big difference in harmonizing the scriptures.As for the Romans reference:
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
The who is over all is a powerful statement. Christ is the head of every man comes to mind.
But for 9:11
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
They did nothing to earn the calling but were not called to salvation, though all will be saved.
They were called and prepared by God for another reason. You only have to read on to see what.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
OMG. You leave out the Great Tribulation like it doesn't happen.
A great multitude that could not be counted went in. A great
multitude came out washed in His blood singing praise to the Father.
You also ignore the judgment day that Jesus describes in Mathew,
where any that do good are saved.
Also that every knee shall bow.
Also John 12:47 If a man rejects my words I do not judge him
for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
The elect spoken of were elected to do Gods will here.
Not only in Preaching the Gospel of the Savior of the world,
But in doing good deeds for the poor and suffering.
It is simply stated why they were chosen.
You can ignore the many verses you refuse to discuss that
contradict your preaching, it has no effect on the reality
of the words written.
God chose a branch of the tree of mankind to be with. To show that when God is with you do His will.
He also chose them so His Name would be preached to the entire world.
The eternal deliverance comes on the last day. The disciples suffered horribly after their so called deliverance.
Again, you ignore important passages that keep you from seeing the simple message preached by Jesus and the disciples.
And by the prophets.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of
the world.
Why didn't John say, "the Savior of the elect few"? Because He is the Savior of the world, that is why.
1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours
only but also for the whole world.
How can you not see the simplicity in that?
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour;that he
by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
1 Tim 4:9-11
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer
reproach,because we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that
believe.
11 These things command and teach.
there is nothing you can say or post that will ever change this verse simple meaning.
1 Tim 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of
God our Savior;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto
the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God
and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in
due time.
It doesn't say, "who wills" It says, "Who will have" pretty simple
Col 1
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile >all things< unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Rom 5
19 For as by one man's disobedience >many< were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall >many< be made righteous.
Romans 11
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
It is all over the Bible, I could go on and on.
But you choose to believe the verses that could have dual meanings
to defend your theology that a loving God creates most people for eternal damnation.
It is only something Satan would do. A loving God would never even consider
such an unjust thing towards His children. The fact that you can not even ponder
just how evil that really is shows the depths of your brainwashing.
Cor 4
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Where does scripture say “we”means spirit and soul?
I think you meant the body stays here on earth.
Upon our natural death the body dies, but our souls go directly back to God who gave it. Our spiritual souls died their first death because of the sin of Adam, but our souls will never taste of a second death because of Jesus's resurrection. When Christ comes back to take God's elect home, our dead bodies will be reunited with our soul. Are you saying that only two have kept his commandments and not tasted death? In Eph 2:5 - says God has regenerated (made alive) some by eliminating spiritual death.
In reference to 1 John 4:14 - in 1 John 4:4-5, Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world; therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. The Father sent the Son to be the Savor of the "elect world". In reference to 1 John 2:2 - My KJV has a reference from 1 John 2:2 to John 1:29 in which the word "world" in the Greek means; any aggregate or general collection of particals of any sort. (used of believers only) John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19. In reference to the rest of your scriptures; You are going to interpret the scriptures to fit your belief, and I, in turn, am going to interpret them to fit my belief. So, it just boils down to who's interpretations most closely harmonizes. The word "salvation", according to the Greek meaning is "a deliverance" There is a deliverance we receive here in time 'in coming to a knowledge of the truth". In 1 John 2:15-16-17, - Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, if any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world (people), the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. Compare these verses with the word "world" in John 3:16. This will have to be two different worlds.
Of course the grave is on earth.
Sheol-he Hebrew underworld, abode of the dead.
Haides-the underworld; the abode of the spirits of the dead
Example, when Cain killed Abel. God said in Gen 4
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
1Cor
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Enoch and Elijah did not die. They were taken by God.
They did not taste death.
When Jesus said that "You will never taste death"
that means in this life or the next. Never means never.
And they were only worthy because God was with them.
Probably not the same as He was with Jesus but He was with them.
Enoch walked with God for 300 years then was not for God took him.
Everyone goes to the grave where there is no communication with
anyone. They sleep until risen. Jesus referred to death as sleep with Lazarus.
Then He said straight out, he is dead.
As for the rest, until you repent and stop sinning...which no one does
and that is a known fact that no one can deny unless they are lying,
you will, as Jesus plainly stated, "Die in your sin." And thus far all
but the two mentioned above have. These are stated facts.
As for being Baptized and receiving the Spirit. Another subject.
We die and sleep until the last day. That is scripture.
What we receive when we come to believe, again another subject.
But one that can not ignore the facts of this subject when discussing
that subject.
You quoted scripture and added a word "elect" That is very dangerous.
The writers of the Bible were very literal. And they were very good
with their language and writing. Scholars even. The Head scholar being God
who actually wrote through them. If it was intended to say "elect", I am sure
with all the beauty and precision that are contained that little error would
not have been overlooked.
One passage sums it all up as to the definition of "world" and "all".
1 Tim 4:9-11
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer
reproach, because we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that
believe.
11 These things command and teach.
Specially defined
for a special purpose.
The believers are amongst the all who are saved
but have a special purpose while in the world
What does those verses have to do with the question that I asked In post 76?or are you agreeing with me?
It's the Spirit that gives life not the flesh.
There are some of God's elect that do not believe. John 12:47 - And if any man hear my words and believe not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world 'of God's elect". All of God's elect, those that believe and those that do not believe. Jesus came to save those that his Father gave him (John 6). Those that his Father gave him are the same ones that his Father choose and predetermined that Christ would die for them (Eph 1)
All scripture must harmonize or you do not understand the doctrine that Jesus taught.