Predestination or free wiil.

[Nehemiah6]

If you are preaching eternal salvation because of your obedience to the gospel, then you are preaching eternal salvation by the works of man.

That is TOTAL NONSENSE. You should at least know the difference between saving faith (generated by the Gospel) and "the works of man".

ROMANS 10
1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ downfrom above)
7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

 

[Hevosmies]

That's a good way to misapply Scripture, and twist it for the sake of your theology. 1 Cor 2:14 is NOT speaking about the Gospel, but the "the deep things of God". And being "dead in trespasses and sins" is NOT a barrier to the POWER of the Gospel (Rom 1:16) and the POWER of the Holy Spirit (Heb 3:7-9).

No sinner is regenerated BEFORE he or she believes on the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:12,13; Acts 2:38). Which means that Five Point Calvinism is a house of cards or a set of dominoes. When one falls, they all fall down (like Humpty Dumpty).

Well said! Thats a misapplication of 1 cor 2:14 to fit calvinist doctrine.


I have observed the same as you that calvinism is a house of cards theology, one falls they all fall. Fortunately for us, ALL of the five points are false. Aint that something? You would think they got atleast one right!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul is speaking to those who are already saved telling them of their future adoption, the redemption of their bodies. That's the future hope of the believe who is in Christ. Salvation comes before God predestines anybody. We get saved. God predestines us. God calls us. God justifies us. God glorifies us.

Except thT he said they were predestined before time began.

Nice try.

Salvation does not come before justification. Those who are justified are predestined.

Again, in romans

Rom 8: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Predestination came first, then the calling, then the justifiction (salvation) then the glorification (which is yet future)

 

[John146]

Are you an open-theist? You believe that the future is open and God does not know beforehand what we do?

I'm a bible believer. I don't add to or take away from what God has said. I allow Scripture to define God, not man. What I see in Scripture is that God has limited His knowledge when it comes to man's decisions. Certainly God can limit His knowledge can't He? Scripture says He remembers our sins no more. Has God chosen not to know certain things?

 

[Hevosmies]

I'm a bible believer. I don't add to or take away from what God has said. I allow Scripture to define God, not man. What I see in Scripture is that God has limited His knowledge when it comes to man's decisions. Certainly God can limit His knowledge can't He? Scripture says He remembers our sins no more. Has God chosen not to know certain things?

Sure God CAN do what He wants.

But bro could you give me a couple of verses to support your position? That God has chosen to "limit His knowledge when it comes to man's decisions"?

 

[John146]

Except thT he said they were predestined before time began.

Nice try.

Salvation does not come before justification. Those who are justified are predestined.

Again, in romans

Rom 8: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Predestination came first, then the calling, then the justifiction (salvation) then the glorification (which is yet future)

You keep saying predestined before time began. Where in Scripture is this wording? It's not in Romans 8. Salvation comes before we are called. Those who are saved are called to live a sanctified life. This calling is found in Christ Jesus. The calling was in Christ Jesus before the world began, not the us.

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Endoscopy]

God when he set creation in motion knew the end from the begining.

Isaiah 46 NIV
8 “Remember this, keep it in mind,
take it to heart, you rebels.
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’

AMPC
8 [Earnestly] remember this, be ashamed and own yourselves guilty; bring it again to mind and lay it to heart, O you rebels!
9 [Earnestly] remember the former things, [which I did] of old; for I am God, and there is no one else; I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end and the result from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure and purpose,


We can see this in the present and with the astronomers predicting the eclipse in 2024. A recent eclipse went straight across the USA. The one in 2024 will go diagonally from northeast to southwest. It will pass through 7 cities named Salem making an X on the USA. Eclipses going across a country has usually meant condemnation to that country. This country was a Christian country in the begining but currently is secular with increasing antagonism against Christianity. Only a splinter are Christians with the major protestant denominations having secular ministers. Only sub denominations and independent churches still preach the gospel.

Think about God setting the universe in motion causing these current eclipses after the USA has gone secular. That proves these verses.

 

[John146]

Sure God CAN do what He wants.

But bro could you give me a couple of verses to support your position? That God has chosen to "limit His knowledge when it comes to man's decisions"?

1. Nineveh for starters

2. David knew God could change His mind based upon his prayers 2 Samuel 12

3. God decided to remember our sins no more because we trusted in His Son

4. Genesis 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. God saw, then He knew...

5. Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

6. 2 Chronicles 32: 31 Howbeit in the business of the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, who sent unto him to enquire of the wonder that was done in the land, God left him, to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart.

7. Jeremiah 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

If one does this, then I will do this...at what instant I shall speak...God reacts based upon man's reactions to His word.

 

[Endoscopy]

My previous post caused me to think how awesome God is. The hymn "My God is an awesome God" says it well.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You have certainly put yourself above me. I expect you believe that when i CAME TO God addressing Him as "You are Who You are," and He had pity on my broken heart guiding me to Jesus Christ and filling me with His Holy Spirit, that was false in your esteem.

I know of many who were lost and found by the Father when they turned to Him…...I am sorry you feel this way. When His Spirit entered into me, I believe I was foreknown by Him..……..

It is not my intention to belittle you and your feelings. Your excitement in coming to Jesus I , in no way, think that your feelings and comments are false. A lot of God's children are confused in knowing the difference between being born again and being converted. Being born again (regenerated) as explained in Eph 2, especially verse 5, can come about with little or no observance, In John 3:5-8, especially in verse 8 - The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth; so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Being converted, in my case, came like a very dramatic event and exciting. It would be my thinking that you were already regenerated (born again of the Spirit) when you experienced your being guided to Jesus. The natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, void of the Spirit, cannot discern spiritual things or be guided to anything that is of a spiritual nature.

 

[Endoscopy]

1. Nineveh for starters

2. David knew God could change His mind based upon his prayers 2 Samuel 12

3. God decided to remember our sins no more because we trusted in His Son

4. Genesis 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. God saw, then He knew...

5. Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

6. 2 Chronicles 32: 31 Howbeit in the business of the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, who sent unto him to enquire of the wonder that was done in the land, God left him, to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart.

7. Jeremiah 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

If one does this, then I will do this...at what instant I shall speak...God reacts based upon man's reactions to His word.

If you read carefully he never changed his mind. He allowed those requesting him to if only a decreasing number of people were still devoted to him. In the end Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for example. God knew what was going to take place. He was allowing people to advocate for them and in a very few occasions He didn't destroy them but his condemnation was put "They will be destroyed if they don't repent."

 

[ForestGreenCook]

1. Nineveh for starters

2. David knew God could change His mind based upon his prayers 2 Samuel 12

3. God decided to remember our sins no more because we trusted in His Son

4. Genesis 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. God saw, then He knew...

5. Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

6. 2 Chronicles 32: 31 Howbeit in the business of the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, who sent unto him to enquire of the wonder that was done in the land, God left him, to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart.

7. Jeremiah 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

If one does this, then I will do this...at what instant I shall speak...God reacts based upon man's reactions to His word.

The scriptures say that God knows the end from the beginning and the thoughts in your mind before you speak and he knows the number of every hair on your head at any given time. It amazes me how any one can discredit God's power and knowledge.

 

[Lillywolf]

The scriptures say that God knows the end from the beginning and the thoughts in your mind before you speak and he knows the number of every hair on your head at any given time. It amazes me how any one can discredit God's power and knowledge.

Is it really all that surprising that people believe in the God they prefer?
And contend against the scriptures that tell us exactly what, because the misnomer of male identity leads people to think God thinks like a people, the holy spirit omniscient, omnipotent, omni-present, omni-genesis, actually is?

 

[John146]

The scriptures say that God knows the end from the beginning and the thoughts in your mind before you speak and he knows the number of every hair on your head at any given time. It amazes me how any one can discredit God's power and knowledge.

I don't deny any of those things that God knows. If it's knowledge to be known, God knows it. My question is...are all future decisions knowledge to be known?

At the beginning, God knew how it would all end. It will end as He has declared it with Jesus Christ ruling and reigning forever. God knows our thoughts. God knows the number of hairs on our head. All knowledge for an all knowing God.

 

[John146]

If you read carefully he never changed his mind. He allowed those requesting him to if only a decreasing number of people were still devoted to him. In the end Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for example. God knew what was going to take place. He was allowing people to advocate for them and in a very few occasions He didn't destroy them but his condemnation was put "They will be destroyed if they don't repent."

God never told Nineveh "if they repent He wouldn't destroy them". I'm not willing to add to Scripture to fit a theology. The declaration was clear, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown."

 

[Jackson123]

John 6: This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

I think it is quite clear what Gods will is. And who those people are who WILL recieve eternal life and be raised.

Yes the Will of the Father is every one who believe the Son have everlasting life.

This verse is inline with john3:16.

Require to believe for salvation.

 

[Jackson123]

Except thT he said they were predestined before time began.

Nice try.

Salvation does not come before justification. Those who are justified are predestined.

Again, in romans

Rom 8: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Predestination came first, then the calling, then the justifiction (salvation) then the glorification (which is yet future)

In what verse , rome 8 has 39 verses

 

[Lillywolf]

I'm a bible believer. I don't add to or take away from what God has said. I allow Scripture to define God, not man. What I see in Scripture is that God has limited His knowledge when it comes to man's decisions. Certainly God can limit His knowledge can't He? Scripture says He remembers our sins no more. Has God chosen not to know certain things?

How does omniscience limit His knowledge?

God remembers our sins no more . This means God does not hold our trespasses against us because we are now in Christ. And our transgressions are covered by the blood of the lamb. We feel remorse for our sins and that lets us know we have erred. However, it does not mean we are no longer saved, as some churches I've heard of claim. It simply means we recognize we've sinned and God knows this is the conviction we have of His indwelling holy spirit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul is speaking to those who are already saved telling them of their future adoption, the redemption of their bodies. That's the future hope of the believe who is in Christ. Salvation comes before God predestines anybody. We get saved. God predestines us. God calls us. God justifies us. God glorifies us.

Except thT he said they were predestined before time began.

Nice try.

Salvation does not come before justification. Those who are justified are predestined.

Again, Eph

Lol. Like the calvinist, who caims he is not a calvinist, you refuse to take the scripture as posted. And want to go all over the place to make your belief fit.

Just take it as written, He predestined us to be children. Predestines means predetermined. He predetermines us to adption. You adding “in christ” does not change that fact.


Notice the order, predestination occured first.

I have printed and studied your posts since first encountering you EG, along with several other men, so we would know exactly what you preach. For this reason I warn you because if the Bible is the standard to use, then many of your doctrines are from religious man and not from God. It's not about you, it's about what you preach.

Since the Christ warned His Disciples, men who were already given the Spirit of truth, and His Disciples then warned others, who had also already been given the Spirit of truth, about the dangers of "DECEPTION" (Believing something that is not true) I think it is prudent to understand that I too, could be tricked. With this in mind I found where the Christ gave us His Armor for the specific purpose of resisting the "Wiles of the Devil",. The Same Armor He used as a flesh and blood human, not before we have turned to Him, but AFTER we have turned to Him.. So this is why I am so "pro God's Word" as it were.

This whole "Not by Works" thing that you are obsessed about has been fascinating to watch.

You preach "The Law isn't for the "Christian", pretty much the same thing Eve was convinced of. It seems you are preaching the 10 commandments lead us to Christ, then after we find Christ, we don't need the "LAW" anymore.

But then you turn around in the same breath and preach that "Gentiles" are not required to follow the Law to lead them to Christ. That doing so is trying to "Earn" Salvation or "save themselves".

This kind of foolishness is repeated by the religions of the land over and over.

They, and by extension you, preach that the Pharisees were trying to "earn Salvation" by keeping God's Laws.

Yet the entire Law and Prophets, along with EVERY WORD of the Christ, teach the exact opposite. When shown the volumes of scriptures which expose this religious doctrine as false, you deflect, insult and ridicule. The Christ also said this would happen when confronting religious men.

It is these discrepancies in mainstream religious traditions, and by extension your preaching, that I and others have spent a great deal of time showing you and what we got back was ridicule, scorn, insults and name calling. Never an actual discussion of the Word's of God. Just defense and justification of religious tradition. But hasn't that always been the response of religious man to the Word of God when it exposed some error in them? Except those if the faith Chapter, when God's Word exposed an error in them, they accepted the Word, not defend the error.

So I am sure, since you have been convinced, as was Eve, that you are already there, already immortal, and are not even capable of being deceived by the master deceiver, that you will blow off this admonition like you have all others.

And for the most part, I ignore your preaching as I have come to know it to well. But from time to time I will chime in, not for you, but for those who may be reading along.

For me, it's not about you personally EG. You can try and make it all about you, but it's not about you. It's about the Warnings of deception and the Word's God gave us to fight it off. Some "Believe ALL THINGS Written in the scriptures, and some don't.

Blah Blah Blah

As I said, You do not know any of us. And why people continue to respond to you. Well thats a wonder in itself.

You do not know any of us like you think you do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You keep saying predestined before time began. Where in Scripture is this wording? It's not in Romans 8. Salvation comes before we are called. Those who are saved are called to live a sanctified life. This calling is found in Christ Jesus. The calling was in Christ Jesus before the world began, not the us.

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Again, You have things backwards. But hey, as before, Continue to believe what you will.. Its sad you teach in christ. Yet do not teach the security found in christ, and if you think you do You wrong.