In other words you haven't answered my question. No, I am not going to move on. If you're not willing to give me a straight answer, then no need to go further.
Quantrill
Temple of God - Christians or a physical building in Jerusalem?
- Thread starter trofimus
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In other words you haven't answered my question. No, I am not going to move on. If you're not willing to give me a straight answer, then no need to go further.
Quantrill
Thats not the new testament. IT doesnt mention anything about a millennium, and all of that is contrary to the book of Hebrews which states Jesus was the once and for all sacrifice. THE ANIMAL SACRIFICES ARE NO LONGER REQUIRED. and this is in the book of Hebrews, not gentiles!
Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
There is a sacrifice that is acceptable to the Lord
In the new covenant "we are the temple of God". We are the priesthood:
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
In your favor though: I admit spiritualizing ezekiel 40-48 also seems like a terrible idea, for it is in SUCH DETAIL and such a long list of chapters. It kind of makes it null and useless if you spiritualize it.
Im stuck between a rock and a hard place lol. Eschatology is hard!
When I read the book of Ezekiel, it appears to me as there are two different authors; one author for the first 39 chapters describing things relevant and spiritual, and a 2nd author in chapters 40-48 describing architecture.
My home church as to when I first heard the gospel of Christ and believed God offered that same idea which was needed to put a separation between the flesh of a Jew and a Gentile in order to try and make the dispensational view work out.
They also for some reason dismissed the time of reformation as if it never occurred.This is when Jewish flesh used as shadows was no longer used as a shadow the glory did follow bringing the first resurrection the promise of opening the graves had come. Nothing could hold them back from entering the new heavenly Jerusalem prepared as Christ's bride, the church . The glory that the old testament saints were looking ahead to has come over two thousand years ago. We look back by the same work of Christ's faith that worked in them. receiving it (Philippians 1:6) just as we do .The Spirit of Christ working in them as with us
Note…. (purple in parenthesis)... my added comments
Receiving the end of your faith,(Christ's work that comes from hearing God) even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time (the reformation) the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 1 Peter 1:10-12
"Spirit of Christ" was in the OT prophets (who spoke of a future time, meaning, they PROPHESIED of things in the future to themselves), but not "BODY of Christ."
Consider what Gaebelein says, here:
"1Peter 1:10-12.
"He directs their attention to the Prophets. The Spirit of Christ was in them and they testified before of the sufferings of Christ and the glories that should follow. This is the great message of these holy men of God who spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. When our Lord said to the Jews “Search the Scriptures... they are they which testify of Me” He called attention to the same fact. They prophesied of the grace which was to come and though they did not understand their own prophecies, they sought diligently, they studied what they had written, searching and always searching, to find out what time, near or far, these things should come to pass. But they knew one thing, “To whom it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to us did they minister the things which are reported to you by those who have preached the gospel unto you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, into which things the angels desire to look.” They knew that it was not for themselves, nor for their own times, that which the Spirit had announced, but for another time. The passage is illustrated by comparing Isaiah 64:4 with 1Corinthians 2:9-10. The Spirit having come down from heaven after Christ had died and was raised from among the dead, has made known the fullness of redemption. And the angels desire to look into these things; they seek to explore and to fathom the wonders of that redemption and the coming glories which are connected with it."
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
Christ is that Rock, the hard place.... the heart of man.
Remember without parables the signified language of God, Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God spoke not .Hiding the unseen spiritual understanding from natural man that walks by sight after the temporal things seen .(no faith)
Many of the parables are historically true as well as spiritually. Take the exodus from Egypt for instance and look for the spiritual meaning hid as the gospel of Christ preached in advance .
I gave you a clear answer, but not the one you expected. Its not my problem, I think.
If you cant explain your theology without it, then let it be so.
I just re-read Hebrews and it really really drives in the point of: in with the new covenant. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all things. The levites are DONE and there was a change in priesthood from levites to Melchizedek, forever.
Whatever our view of the O.T. passages are, should be in light of the NT. It should always be the #1 priority. the NT.
Whatever our view of the O.T. passages are, should be in light of the NT. It should always be the #1 priority. the NT.
Was "the Church which is His body" in existence on the earth before the Cross [His death, resurrection, and exaltation]? [Eph1:20-23]
"the church in the wilderness" was, as we know from Acts 7:38-43 (see the whole context here), but this was not the same entity, and did not possess the same position, privileges, placement, doctrine [/teachings], and such...
Both passages ^ use "ekklesia"... but so does Acts 19 (but is not referring to EITHER of the above! that is, Acts 19 is not referring to "the church in the wilderness" [OT] NOR "the Church which is His body" [presently])
Absolutely. Every teaching of Christ as recorded in the Synoptic Gospels is for Christians.
At the same time since the Old Covenant was binding until the crucifixion of Christ, there are some things said which would only apply to the Jews, e.g. lepers showing themselves to priests, or paying the temple tax, etc.
As Jesus is God's Son, and God is Love (1 John 4:7-8 & 16); anyone and everyone throughout the world who loved their neighbor had Christ's body within themselves, and were known by Him."Spirit of Christ" was in the OT prophets (who spoke of a future time, meaning, they PROPHESIED of things in the future to themselves), but not "BODY of Christ."
Consider what Gaebelein says, here:
"1Peter 1:10-12.
"He directs their attention to the Prophets. The Spirit of Christ was in them and they testified before of the sufferings of Christ and the glories that should follow. This is the great message of these holy men of God who spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. When our Lord said to the Jews “Search the Scriptures... they are they which testify of Me” He called attention to the same fact. They prophesied of the grace which was to come and though they did not understand their own prophecies, they sought diligently, they studied what they had written, searching and always searching, to find out what time, near or far, these things should come to pass. But they knew one thing, “To whom it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to us did they minister the things which are reported to you by those who have preached the gospel unto you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, into which things the angels desire to look.” They knew that it was not for themselves, nor for their own times, that which the Spirit had announced, but for another time. The passage is illustrated by comparing Isaiah 64:4 with 1Corinthians 2:9-10. The Spirit having come down from heaven after Christ had died and was raised from among the dead, has made known the fullness of redemption. And the angels desire to look into these things; they seek to explore and to fathom the wonders of that redemption and the coming glories which are connected with it."
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Now this is the kind of dispensationalism i agree with.
Hey Nehemiah can you also answer my other questions such as:
-Hebrews states Christ died once and for all for our sins, and that the levites are done with now because we got a new order of Melchizedek, so why is there no mention in the NT of a return to animal sacrifices after the church era?
-Why is the temple in Jerusalem that they will build soon called "The temple of God" when its made by unbelieving unregenerate Christ-rejecting jews?
I really am trying to nail this thing down, and I believe I am close, its just difficult to fit ALL of the NT and OT prophecy together, there is just so much praying and reading to do
I have been in the "dont know, we'll see how it pans out" camp for too long.
On the other hand I cannot fathom the idea of a return to the OldCovenant which is said to be done in Hebr 8:13 and all the animal sacrifices in light of the NT witness and what Christ did on the cross.
But then on the other hand I HATE spiritualizing chapters upon chapters upon chapters with specifics about these sacrifices and the temple in the O.T. Reason im not a fan of such spiritualizing is because if it doesnt mean what it says, it can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean.
New Covenant
Many say we are already in God’s new covenant that was prophesied in the OT and in Acts/Hebrews.
Heb. 8:7-13 “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”
Jer. 31:31-34 “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
Do you see the direct link between Jeremiah and Hebrews? What about the parallels in Acts and Joel?
Acts 2:16-18 “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:”
First a time frame in Joel: Joel 2:1 “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;”
Next It speaks of a restoration after the Day of the Lord. Then we are given a picture of the new covenant: Joel 2:28,29 “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”
What can we conclude from this? What we have today is not the New Covenant God was talking about. Not yet.
Many say we are already in God’s new covenant that was prophesied in the OT and in Acts/Hebrews.
Heb. 8:7-13 “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”
Jer. 31:31-34 “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
Do you see the direct link between Jeremiah and Hebrews? What about the parallels in Acts and Joel?
Acts 2:16-18 “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:”
First a time frame in Joel: Joel 2:1 “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;”
Next It speaks of a restoration after the Day of the Lord. Then we are given a picture of the new covenant: Joel 2:28,29 “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”
What can we conclude from this? What we have today is not the New Covenant God was talking about. Not yet.
That's an excellent question. The New Testament (which could also be called the New Covenant) was designed to (1) keep our focus on Christ and His finished work of redemption, and (2) preach the Gospel to every creature. As you may know, Revelation was written around 95-96 AD, and it is the only book that clearly speaks about a Millennium. And that is yet future.
So as long as Christ is building His Church on earth, our focus must remain on the cross and what He accomplished in His one great sacrifice for sins. And unbelieving Jews must be presented with the same Gospel (the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ).
But even Ezekiel -- which details a temple in Jerusalem with animal sacrifices -- makes it crystal clear that future redeemed and restored Israel will be under the New Covenant (Ezek 36). So for Christians today the issue is how will God reconcile those sacrifices with the finished work of Christ? And we really do not have an answer for that. For some things, we must be content to be in the dark, and simply believe that God knows what He will do. And you are perfectly correct in refusing to spiritualize Ezekiel (and other related Scriptures) just because we cannot fathom all this. A proper study of Ezekiel should lead Christians to understand:
1. God is not finished with Israel, and a future redemption and restoration is promised
2. Christ will gather all Jews to "greater Israel" (as per the Abrahamic Covenant) after His second coming
3. A vast number will repent, mourn, be converted, and be established in the land
4. The twelve tribes will be finally placed in their assigned sections of Israel
5. There will be a magnificent temple in Jerusalem where there will be true worship
6. David will be prince over Israel while Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords
7. At the same time animal sacrifices may serve as memorials to the finished work of Christ.
Any temple built in Jerusalem would technically be a "temple of God", since God has chosen Jerusalem to be an eternal city where the true God will be worshiped.
However, since unbelieving Jews are spiritually blind (because they do not accept the Lord Jesus Christ), they will build a third temple and assume that it is a "temple of God" (even though Christians know that God will have nothing to do with it). But for unbelieving Jews (who still expect the "true" Messiah) this is perfectly logical. So the Antichrist will oblige them by (a) setting up the Abomination of Desolation (the image of the Beast) within the future Holy Place, and then (b) blatantly sitting in that temple and declaring that he is both God and Messiah and must be worshiped.
The rabbis did believe that Messiah would be divine-human, yet they rejected Christ because he did not conform to their ideas of Messiah and also exposed their false religiosity. However the anti-Messiah (in place of and opposed to Christ) will be more than happy to accommodate them, flatter them, make a covenant of peace with the Jews, allow them to resume animal sacrifices, and after deceiving them, shut it all down for his own nefarious reasons. However, since he will be a miracle worker (as Christ was) he will dazzle the world with signs and lying wonders, and the whole unbelieving world will worship him.
Which one do yuo hold to Deade?
I think postmillennialism is the least biblical and absolutely unbiblical. The rest I give a fair chance.
amillennialism fits the NT best, excluding rev20. And it has simplicity on its side, 2 peter 3:10-13 and just the overall way amill view works, its very simple to explain. Jesus returns, creates new heaven and earth, resurrects everyone, some to life some to damnation. Simple.
The downside is that they largely spiritualize ALL of the O.T. prophecies regarding Israel. I have seen this in the commentaries, it can say something about levites sacrificing animals and they just comment. "This is the gospel church something something" lol. Always the gospel church. I havent seen any precedent to do so, dont know why they do it. They also make Rev20 extremely difficult and unnatural to read. Its hard to buy their explanation of Rev20 as credible IMO
Dispensational premillennialism has its strengths in keeping Israel in the picture, not spiritualizing any of the O.T. passages concerning the regathering and returning of Israel. The thing is: If Israel was scattered, its only natural that the same Israel regathered. To say that Israel was scattered, gentiles were gathered, makes no sense.
But on the downside it is extremely complicated and a very recent idea and has the problem of TWO returns of Christ. (one for the church, one with the Church)
Historical premillennialism has its strength in being (in my opinion) the PLAIN reading of the text. This is the view I got by just reading through the Bible on my own without knowing anything about any theology. It also has the strength of being the most popular doctrine among the early church. (1st 2nd and 3rd century, up until Augustine really)
On the downside, it is on the "edge" of amil and dispies, where they believe in the millennium but they spiritualize SOME of the O.T. texts, the ones with the animal sacrifices.
Some hold to replacement theology, but NOT ALL, such as David Pawson, who is a zionist and a supporter of Israel, and believes in the regathering, while being post-tribber historic premil.
This is what believe also. I see a very definite physical promise to Abraham to the physical restoration of the nation of Israel to the Promised Land. That means I believe in a spiritual Israel (church) and a physical Israel (descendants of Jacob).
Yup. Here is how I see it: The way in which they are restored is: they join the church. instead of being a separate entity. Its one entity of both gentiles and jews.
May I ask: how did you get to historic premil? Did you also just get to it by reading the bible? Thats where I landed without any preconceived ideas, just plain reading thru the book
Now that I have looked at ALL sides, im more confused than ever lol. All seem viable.