Is baptism required for salvation?

[p_rehbein]

so true dear Brother,
but when one is led/convicted to do as their Saviour did and given us His example, how could we not
want to follow His example and do as His cousin must have been led to do to Him as His
Heavenly Father led/exampled him to do for us???

Exactly. Water baptism is an act of obedience to Christ. IMO, it is/should be the 1st act of obedience. Christ gave us an example, and we should do it.

Water baptism serves two purposes:
1) It serves as a witness to the world that a person has become a disciple of Christ.
2) It serves as a witness to the Church that a person has become a disciple of Christ.

What water baptism DOES NOT do is save! Were it necessary for salvation (eternal life), then John 3:16 would read much differently would it not? "whosoever believeth in Him, and is water baptized........" As would ALL the other Scriptures that speak of believeing in Christ for salvation. Goodness, IF it were that important, do folks NOT think God would have said so?

 

[mailmandan]

E...,

Please show me one scripture which says baptism is optional?

Please show me one scripture which says, "whoever is not water baptized will not be saved."

*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[preston39]

......

If there are reasons that make it impossible to be baptized like the man on the cross next to Christ,

We don't know that the thief was or was not baptized. He may have been a backslider....His recognition of Christ highly suggest that he was...a back slider.



and for that reason i believe that when Jesus was baptized He was baptized for them.

Jesus who had never sinned was baptized as an example for you and I.


.... Works do not save and the act of baptism has no special power to save,

If baptism is works then the act of repentance is also. Where do you draw the line? It is not works. It is mandated by G-d.

salvation comes from Christ alone. But Baptizm is a spiritual experience that shows your obedience and faith in God and your commitment to be born again as a child of God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I can find no writing, sermons, teachings, recordings or other references to the concept of ...baptism is not necessary.......prior to the 1960's ........can you explain why?

It is a new age religion teaching that must be relegated to the dung heap.

 

[preston39]

Please show me one scripture which says, "whoever is not water baptized will not be saved."

*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

They are posted.....?...in this thread...at least 2-3 times.

 

[p_rehbein]

Many verses emphasize salvation by grace through faith without mentioning water baptism:

1. John 1:12
2. John 3:14-18, 36 (whoever)
3. John 5:24
4. John 6:29-40, 47, 69 (whoever, everyone)
5. John 11:25-26 (whoever)
6. John 12:46-50 (whoever)
7. John 16:7-9 (not believe)
8. John 17:20-22
9. John 20:31
10. Acts 2:21,33 (everyone)
11. Acts 10:43-48 (whoever, water baptism follows belief and Holy Spirit’s work of salvation)
12. Acts 13:38-39, 48 (everyone)
13. Acts 15:8-11
14. Acts 16:30-31 (answer to a direct question: What must I do to be saved?)
15. Acts 26:18
16. Romans 1:16 (everyone)
17. Romans 3:20-31 (all who believe)
18. Romans 4:1-11
19. Romans 4:23-25
20. Romans 5:1-21
21. Romans 9:30-33 (whoever)
22. Romans 10:4-13 (everyone, whoever)
23. Galatians 2:15-21, Galatians 3:1-28 (whoever, baptism secondary to faith)
24. Galatians 5:5-6
25. Ephesians 2:8-10
26. Philippians 3:4-14
27. 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17
28. Hebrews 4:2-3
29. 1 Peter 2:6
30. 1 John 1:5-10
31. 1 John 4:15 (God abides in whoever confesses Christ)
32. 1 John 5:1, 10-13 (whoever)

33. Other verses mention belief without water baptism: Luke 7:50; John 2:11, 23; John 4:39, 41; John 7:38-39; John 8:30-32; John 9:35-36; John 10:42; John 11:45, 48; John 12:11, 42-44; John 14:1, 12; John 20:31; Acts 14:23; Acts 20:21; Romans 15:13; Philippians 1:29; Titus 3:8. There nine instances of conversion in the book of Acts without reference to baptism: Acts 3:1-4:4, Acts 5:1-14, Acts 9:32-35, Acts 11:19-24, Acts 13:6-12, Acts 13:42-52, Acts 14:1, Acts 17:10-12, Acts 17:22-34. Did the authors miss the opportunity to mention baptism in these many passages if it is so important?

34. Many of the above verses use the language “whosoever” (King James) or “whoever” or “everyone” who believes. This language is all-encompassing. That is, by the language of the text nothing else is required for salvation except faith. Thus, in addition to not mentioning water baptism, the all-encompassing language of whoever precludes other requirements. SO HERE WE HAVE THE THESIS OF SALVATION BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH DEMONSTRATED IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

35. Further, many verses specifically preclude works as a way to salvation: Acts 13:39; Romans 3:20, 28; Galatians 2:15-17; Ephesians 2:9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5; Philippians 3:8-9 (“everything”), etc. Others say that we cannot boast before God—a similar concept (Romans 3:27; 1 Corinthians 1:29).

Home: Christian apologetics including Genesis, Bible and Communicating with God » World Religions & Theology »101 Reasons Why Water Baptism is Not Necessary to be Saved

 

[mailmandan]

They are posted.....?...in this thread...at least 2-3 times.

You have not shown me one verse in the Bible that specifically states, "whoever is not water baptized will not be saved." Try again.

 

[plaintalk]

17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened. (Acts 9: 17- 19) NASB

Some maintain that these verses show that Paul received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in the name of Christ, in water, for the forgiveness of sins. To do this they are willingly to ignore Acts 2: 38, 39 which tell us that the universal pattern for Jew and Gentile and indeed for all that God will call to Himself is to repent and be baptized then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. They are also willing to ignore the prophecy of Ezekiel 36: 25-27 which spoke to the order of events and the example of Jesus our Lord who submitted to baptism in water prior to receiving the Holy Spirit.

The cleansing with water was a well established practice of the Jews, ordained by God, at least
since Exodus 29: 4 when Aaron and his sons were washed with water prior to being anointed and
consecrated to God’s service; they point to Cornelius and his household as examples. But Cornelius was
not an example, he is the recognized exception. When we examine the events in his conversion, we find
that he was saved by the grace of God in the same way we all are, only the order of events was changed
not the events themselves.

Back to Paul: Ananias was sent to Paul so that he might regain his sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Immediately sales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight, and he arose and was baptized. The text
does not state that he was immediately filled with the Spirit; this is an unsupported supposition. He
arose and was baptized and would normally receive the Spirit as Acts 2: 38, 39 states. It was only after
baptism the he took food and was strengthened; leading us to believe that He considered baptism as
the closing event of his conversion.

As far as I am aware, Cornelius is the only instance in which the converts received the Spirit before
baptism in water in the name of Christ; if you know of others, please respond.
God bless

 

[RDK]

Paul baptised with water for time but later gave this up. He told us that the real power of God was the baptism of fire which is the holy spirit. That spirit is the source of God knowledge and the power by which miracles are done. The water baptism was just a formality parable which Jesus did to honor the work of John the baptist. You know that water can't wash away sin. This is just a formality an outward sign of an inward change.

 

[notuptome]

17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened. (Acts 9: 17- 19) NASB

Some maintain that these verses show that Paul received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in the name of Christ, in water, for the forgiveness of sins. To do this they are willingly to ignore Acts 2: 38, 39 which tell us that the universal pattern for Jew and Gentile and indeed for all that God will call to Himself is to repent and be baptized then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. They are also willing to ignore the prophecy of Ezekiel 36: 25-27 which spoke to the order of events and the example of Jesus our Lord who submitted to baptism in water prior to receiving the Holy Spirit.

The cleansing with water was a well established practice of the Jews, ordained by God, at least
since Exodus 29: 4 when Aaron and his sons were washed with water prior to being anointed and
consecrated to God’s service; they point to Cornelius and his household as examples. But Cornelius was
not an example, he is the recognized exception. When we examine the events in his conversion, we find
that he was saved by the grace of God in the same way we all are, only the order of events was changed
not the events themselves.

Back to Paul: Ananias was sent to Paul so that he might regain his sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Immediately sales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight, and he arose and was baptized. The text
does not state that he was immediately filled with the Spirit; this is an unsupported supposition. He
arose and was baptized and would normally receive the Spirit as Acts 2: 38, 39 states. It was only after
baptism the he took food and was strengthened; leading us to believe that He considered baptism as
the closing event of his conversion.

As far as I am aware, Cornelius is the only instance in which the converts received the Spirit before
baptism in water in the name of Christ; if you know of others, please respond.
God bless

Every disciple and apostle in the upper room received the Holy Spirit and there was no water baptism present. John 20 Jesus breathed upon them the Holy Spirit. This is the resurrected Christ baptizing the disciple and apostles unto eternal life.

It is the pattern that has remained unchanged since the birth of the church. I would be concerned if your experience varies greatly from this pattern.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[preston39]

17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened. (Acts 9: 17- 19) NASB

Some maintain that these verses show that Paul received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in the name of Christ, in water, for the forgiveness of sins. To do this they are willingly to ignore Acts 2: 38, 39 which tell us that the universal pattern for Jew and Gentile and indeed for all that God will call to Himself is to repent and be baptized then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. They are also willing to ignore the prophecy of Ezekiel 36: 25-27 which spoke to the order of events and the example of Jesus our Lord who submitted to baptism in water prior to receiving the Holy Spirit.

The cleansing with water was a well established practice of the Jews, ordained by God, at least
since Exodus 29: 4 when Aaron and his sons were washed with water prior to being anointed and
consecrated to God’s service; they point to Cornelius and his household as examples. But Cornelius was
not an example, he is the recognized exception. When we examine the events in his conversion, we find
that he was saved by the grace of God in the same way we all are, only the order of events was changed
not the events themselves.

Back to Paul: Ananias was sent to Paul so that he might regain his sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Immediately sales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight, and he arose and was baptized. The text
does not state that he was immediately filled with the Spirit; this is an unsupported supposition. He
arose and was baptized and would normally receive the Spirit as Acts 2: 38, 39 states. It was only after
baptism the he took food and was strengthened; leading us to believe that He considered baptism as
the closing event of his conversion.

As far as I am aware, Cornelius is the only instance in which the converts received the Spirit before
baptism in water in the name of Christ; if you know of others, please respond.
God bless

You are mixing availability (by grace) and procedure required for repentance.

Anyone who can not see that the word of G-d requires baptism is walking to a strange bible.
Further, rejection of baptism is only been mentioned since the 1960's. Please, show me mention, in a sermon, writings, teachings, etc before the 1960's?

 

[garee]

......


I can find no writing, sermons, teachings, recordings or other references to the concept of ...baptism is not necessary.......prior to the 1960's ........can you explain why?

It is a new age religion teaching that must be relegated to the dung heap.

My two cents..

In regard to the foundation of baptism. Today, most people reconcile it as having a New Testament foundation as an outward sign a person has received the Holy Spirit?

Both ways either as a New Testament foundation or Old Testament using water as a metaphor of the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit. It is reckoned as a ceremonial law or a shadow “non effective”.

We walk by faith the unseen eternal and not believing God after signs...…. the temporal things seen .

Getting wet will not quicken ones soul any more then sacrificing an animal .Both are used as shadows of the eternal not seen

I will try and explain how I reconcile the idea of Levites as an ongoing priesthood even today.

Israel’s name was changed from Jacob. Jacob is one of the many names used in parables as a metaphor to typify Christ, our husband.

Israel a name that means a kingly prince having power with God and with men, as that which did prevail.

That would seem to represent the gospel Christ, our mediator between God and man. The father having poured out the cup of wrath and our prince, as the Son of man prevailed with the father.

Levi as son of Jacob could be reckoned as a description of a priest as a “bridge builder” a definition I heard as an earlier Christian .(Jacob’s ladder)

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

The name Levi is used to represent the Royal priesthood of believers. Levi defined as “my husband to represent Christ “to be joined unto me”

And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will “my husband be joined unto me”, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi. Genesis 29:34

Levi a tribe that is not given any earthly inheritance. I believe represents a kingdom of priests sent from a foreign land as ambassadors for Christ .And also being part as a Levi did not make a person a priest .Korah’s rebellion when many from the tribe were swallowed up.

Joshua 18:7 But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of “the Lord is their inheritance”: and Gad, and Reuben, and half the tribe of Manasseh, have received their inheritance beyond Jordan on the east, which Moses the servant of the Lord gave them.

Levites are reckoned as having no genealogy. Their birth records are kept in the new heavenly Jerusalem ( the lambs book of life as the recorded genealogy) .

Ezra 2:62These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.

The water baptism has its foundation in the Old Testament ceremonial law required when a Levi had a desire to become a priest in enabling Him to perform priestly duties. Not all Levites became priests.

Exodus 29:4And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.

Being on the Old Testament side of the cross the Son of man performed the Old Testament purification rite when a new priest entered the ministry.

Coming from the tribe of Judah and ceremonially receiving the rite from John a Levite. Things started to be challenged by those who did walk after the flesh, walking by sight. Not only was a person from the tribe of Judah baptized but he was baptizing as if he was from the tribe of Levi.

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.(old testament baptizing ceremony) And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.He must increase, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.John 3:25-30

Coming after the manner of Melchidek as shaow of the son of man to come the order was changed to the new we have today . Christian as if they were from the tribe of Levi as inward Jews born of the Spirit of Christ.

Today we are considered as if we were Levites after the new manner, seeing the Son of man did come after the manner of Melcizidek having fulfilled the shadow as our high Priest continually. We are sent out as ambassadors for Christ from the foreign land (not of here )

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Exodus 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Hebrews 7:24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[garee]

You are mixing availability (by grace) and procedure required for repentance.

Anyone who can not see that the word of G-d requires baptism is walking to a strange bible.
Further, rejection of baptism is only been mentioned since the 1960's. Please, show me mention, in a sermon, writings, teachings, etc before the 1960's?

To repent is a work of God, as in all his works he must do the first. We love Him because he first loved us giving us the hearing of his faith not seen.

If he does not turn a person toward the hearing of His faith the person will have nothing to turn to, so that they then can repent.

 

[preston39]

My two cents..

In regard to the foundation of baptism. Today, most people reconcile it as having a New Testament foundation as an outward sign a person has received the Holy Spirit?

Both ways either as a New Testament foundation or Old Testament using water as a metaphor of the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit. It is reckoned as a ceremonial law or a shadow “non effective”.

We walk by faith the unseen eternal and not believing God after signs...…. the temporal things seen .

Getting wet will not quicken ones soul any more then sacrificing an animal .Both are used as shadows of the eternal not seen

I will try and explain how I reconcile the idea of Levites as an ongoing priesthood even today.

Israel’s name was changed from Jacob. Jacob is one of the many names used in parables as a metaphor to typify Christ, our husband.

Israel a name that means a kingly prince having power with God and with men, as that which did prevail.

That would seem to represent the gospel Christ, our mediator between God and man. The father having poured out the cup of wrath and our prince, as the Son of man prevailed with the father.

Levi as son of Jacob could be reckoned as a description of a priest as a “bridge builder” a definition I heard as an earlier Christian .(Jacob’s ladder)

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

The name Levi is used to represent the Royal priesthood of believers. Levi defined as “my husband to represent Christ “to be joined unto me”

And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will “my husband be joined unto me”, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi. Genesis 29:34

Levi a tribe that is not given any earthly inheritance. I believe represents a kingdom of priests sent from a foreign land as ambassadors for Christ .And also being part as a Levi did not make a person a priest .Korah’s rebellion when many from the tribe were swallowed up.

Joshua 18:7 But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of “the Lord is their inheritance”: and Gad, and Reuben, and half the tribe of Manasseh, have received their inheritance beyond Jordan on the east, which Moses the servant of the Lord gave them.

Levites are reckoned as having no genealogy. Their birth records are kept in the new heavenly Jerusalem ( the lambs book of life as the recorded genealogy) .

Ezra 2:62These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.

The water baptism has its foundation in the Old Testament ceremonial law required when a Levi had a desire to become a priest in enabling Him to perform priestly duties. Not all Levites became priests.

Exodus 29:4And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.

Being on the Old Testament side of the cross the Son of man performed the Old Testament purification rite when a new priest entered the ministry.

Coming from the tribe of Judah and ceremonially receiving the rite from John a Levite. Things started to be challenged by those who did walk after the flesh, walking by sight. Not only was a person from the tribe of Judah baptized but he was baptizing as if he was from the tribe of Levi.

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.(old testament baptizing ceremony) And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.He must increase, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.John 3:25-30

Coming after the manner of Melchidek as shaow of the son of man to come the order was changed to the new we have today . Christian as if they were from the tribe of Levi as inward Jews born of the Spirit of Christ.

Today we are considered as if we were Levites after the new manner, seeing the Son of man did come after the manner of Melcizidek having fulfilled the shadow as our high Priest continually. We are sent out as ambassadors for Christ from the foreign land (not of here )

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Exodus 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Hebrews 7:24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

"Outward sign"...when baptism last for 2-3 minutes?....makes no sense.
Our outward sign is ....how righteous we live thru service to Christ as a follower.

Baptism is a total sign of our spiritual commitment to Christ.

 

[preston39]

My two cents..

In regard to the foundation of baptism. Today, most people reconcile it as having a New Testament foundation as an outward sign a person has received the Holy Spirit?

Both ways either as a New Testament foundation or Old Testament using water as a metaphor of the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit. It is reckoned as a ceremonial law or a shadow “non effective”.

We walk by faith the unseen eternal and not believing God after signs...…. the temporal things seen .

Getting wet will not quicken ones soul any more then sacrificing an animal .Both are used as shadows of the eternal not seen

I will try and explain how I reconcile the idea of Levites as an ongoing priesthood even today.

Israel’s name was changed from Jacob. Jacob is one of the many names used in parables as a metaphor to typify Christ, our husband.

Israel a name that means a kingly prince having power with God and with men, as that which did prevail.

That would seem to represent the gospel Christ, our mediator between God and man. The father having poured out the cup of wrath and our prince, as the Son of man prevailed with the father.

Levi as son of Jacob could be reckoned as a description of a priest as a “bridge builder” a definition I heard as an earlier Christian .(Jacob’s ladder)

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

The name Levi is used to represent the Royal priesthood of believers. Levi defined as “my husband to represent Christ “to be joined unto me”

And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will “my husband be joined unto me”, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi. Genesis 29:34

Levi a tribe that is not given any earthly inheritance. I believe represents a kingdom of priests sent from a foreign land as ambassadors for Christ .And also being part as a Levi did not make a person a priest .Korah’s rebellion when many from the tribe were swallowed up.

Joshua 18:7 But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of “the Lord is their inheritance”: and Gad, and Reuben, and half the tribe of Manasseh, have received their inheritance beyond Jordan on the east, which Moses the servant of the Lord gave them.

Levites are reckoned as having no genealogy. Their birth records are kept in the new heavenly Jerusalem ( the lambs book of life as the recorded genealogy) .

Ezra 2:62These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.

The water baptism has its foundation in the Old Testament ceremonial law required when a Levi had a desire to become a priest in enabling Him to perform priestly duties. Not all Levites became priests.

Exodus 29:4And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.

Being on the Old Testament side of the cross the Son of man performed the Old Testament purification rite when a new priest entered the ministry.

Coming from the tribe of Judah and ceremonially receiving the rite from John a Levite. Things started to be challenged by those who did walk after the flesh, walking by sight. Not only was a person from the tribe of Judah baptized but he was baptizing as if he was from the tribe of Levi.

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.(old testament baptizing ceremony) And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.He must increase, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.John 3:25-30

Coming after the manner of Melchidek as shaow of the son of man to come the order was changed to the new we have today . Christian as if they were from the tribe of Levi as inward Jews born of the Spirit of Christ.

Today we are considered as if we were Levites after the new manner, seeing the Son of man did come after the manner of Melcizidek having fulfilled the shadow as our high Priest continually. We are sent out as ambassadors for Christ from the foreign land (not of here )

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Exodus 40:15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Hebrews 7:24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

I notice you did not approach the 1960's point....?

 

[justapilgrim]

No need to be confused. The bible speaks clearly about baptism. Only until very recently did modern preachers err from the ancient ways.

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

Christ couldn't have been talking about baptism with the Holy Ghost here because Acts 2 had not happened yet. What would have been the context that the disciples heard this in?

Also in Matthew 28:19, the great commission was that disciples were made by baptism. This isn't strange Jesus had been teaching baptism since early in his ministry.

John 3:5 - Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God

as was John,

Luke 3:3 - And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Notice, John was baptizing for the remission of sins.

So now lets go to Acts. After the death of Stephen we know that one Phillip went to Samaria and taught and in Acts 8:12 we read

But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women

then starting in 14

When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


So how does figure in to 20th century mainstream "Christian" thought?

These Samaritans believed and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, yet the Holy Spirit had fallen on none of them. When were they saved? Simon the sorceror was baptized, but he was not regenerated, as we see from him trying to purchase the Holy Spirit (which also shows the baptism being performed was not Holy Spirit baptism)

Baptism is not a work of righteousness. It is an appeal for the forgiveness of sins (1 Peter 3:21). God grants that, the scripture shows, on the basis of the faith of the individual making the appeal. For Colossians 2:11-12 says

in him you were also circumcised with a circumcision NOT PERFORMED BY HUMAN HANDS. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

In conclusion, the modern teaching of water baptism not being essential is a lie from the devil. It is clearly supported in the scripture, in both new and old testaments, in both the gospels and the acts of the apostles, and in the apostles writings to the early church.

I say and stand behind the words of Jesus

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

would you, like the serpent insert a NOT into the word of God?

He that believeth and is NOT baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned?


You shall not surely die....

 

[posthuman]

I notice you did not approach the 1960's point....?

I rejoice also that your firmly rooted faith, which was famous in past years, still flourishes and bears fruit unto our Lord Jesus Christ, who endured for our sins, even to the suffering of death, "whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of Hades, in whom, though you did not see him, you believed in unspeakable and glorified joy," -- into which joy many desire to come, knowing that "by grace ye are saved, not by works" but by the will of God through Jesus Christ. ​

- Polycarp, 1st-2nd century AD​

 

[posthuman]

Christ couldn't have been talking about baptism with the Holy Ghost here because Acts 2 had not happened yet. What would have been the context that the disciples heard this in?

Christ couldn't be talking about the baptism with which He baptizes because He hadn't baptized yet ? ?

your argument here kinda makes Acts 1:5 an impossible statement:

For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. ​

​

the facts are that Jesus spoke of many things His disciples did not understand until much later. the immediate context of His words to them wasn't always the true context of their meaning. His crucifixion, for example - He couldn't have been talking about that because He hadn't yet gone to the cross? of course not. ain't encouraging disobedience in any way; just saying that's a poor argument IMO.

we all know it's not the body but the soul that needs to be made clean, and that H2O is not able to do that.

you are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you​

(John 15:3)​

​

whatever any of us believe about H2O immersion needs to jive with these sayings also.
again: i'm not encouraging disobedience in any way whatsoever. i mean to encourage a sound mind and right doctrine which glorifies Christ and Christ alone, a salvation and a righteousness apart from works, His grace through our faith

 

[justapilgrim]

He is quoting scripture. That scripture was around in the 1960s. No one who teaches water baptism will tell you that baptism is a work of righteousness. It does not earn us anything. It cannot pay back the debt of sin which is death.

 

[justapilgrim]

Christ couldn't be talking about the baptism with which He baptizes because He hadn't baptized yet ? ?

your argument here kinda makes Acts 1:5 an impossible statement:

For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. ​

​

the facts are that Jesus spoke of many things His disciples did not understand until much later. the immediate context of His words to them wasn't always the true context of their meaning. His crucifixion, for example - He couldn't have been talking about that because He hadn't yet gone to the cross? of course not. ain't encouraging disobedience in any way; just saying that's a poor argument IMO.

we all know it's not the body but the soul that needs to be made clean, and that H2O is not able to do that.

you are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you​

(John 15:3)​

​

whatever any of us believe about H2O immersion needs to jive with these sayings also.

Not impossible at all. I don't follow your reasoning. If anything we see that Christ is qualifying baptism with "with the Holy Spirit" indicating that before that he had been speaking only about water baptism. Remember, baptism if translated would be immersed. He is also speaking to his disciples.

I agree that Christ said many things the disciples didn't understand, but in this instance they had a preexisting context for baptism. Namely, that John and Jesus preached a baptism for the remission of sins.

John 15:3 - Jesus is talking to his disciples because he says "ye are the branches". We don't know that these people were not yet already baptized. If they weren't disciples I think Jesus would start with an earlier teaching "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand ". And it would just so happen that Jesus and John baptized people into repentance.

 

[justapilgrim]

Also, if Holy Spirit baptism is something that God does, why does Jesus command his disciples to do it? Who does that today? What about my point about Acts 8:14?