A place for rapture questions

[Ahwatukee]

I assume they wont die, since they have "eternal life" (unless it means eternal life like christians 'have' eternal life today but still die in the flesh?. So maybe they are transformed at the end of the millennium without seeing death?

But they can still reproduce because they arent yet in glorified bodies, BUT they live for the entire duration of the millennium because of the tree of life or something of that sort? And their offspring will then be the rebels in the Gog and Magog war?

Any opinions? This is just guess work i know, but what do you think?

Good day Hevosmies,

You are correct in that, it is the offspring of those who enter into the millennial period who will rebel against God at the end of the thousand years and that as a result of Satan being released from the Abyss. As far as when the righteous living during the millennium receive their immortal and glorified bodies, nothing is written.

There are just some issues that we just don't have any information on in order to arrive at a conclusion.

 

[Absolutely]

I believe that no one who ENTERS the MK time period will "die" ['the righteous'/the 'ye BLESSED']; they have eternal life (though still in mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children. It is the children born to them that will not be "born [automatically] righteous [possessing eternal life]" that will be susceptible to "death/dying," but only those who rebel will die [and later be present at the GWTj for the final carrying out of that sentence])

I believe this, for one, because Jesus said "I AM the Resurrection AND the LIFE" (John 11:25) and He will be present there (having "returned"), so the verse goes on to say, "he that believeth on Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" ('I AM the resurrection'), and then the next verse goes on to say, "AND whosoever LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?" ('AND the LIFE'). [I see Matt25:31-34 and context being about LIVING ppl [mortals] when He returns to the earth, as well as parts of Matt13]

I also see where Matthew 18:8 sets in contradistinction "to be cast into everlasting fire" with "enter into life halt or maimed" and verse 19 stating, "9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." [verse 3 had just said, "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of the heavens [i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly MK]; see also Mk9:40-48, where vv.1-8 had just told about the Transfiguration (which I believe is a glimpse of the future MK/glorious reign)]; I'm thinking this may be where the "for the healing of the nations" comes in, per Rev22:2 ??

Hope that helps you see some of my perspective.

The millineal kingdom is just a prelude to the new heaven and new earth.
Another great battle will come at its close.
Evidently all the dead are raised. Then issued life or death in the lake of fire.

The culmination or fulfilment of all things is when the throne of david is re established. That is the target. The throne of david with Jesus occupying that throne.
That is what heaven sees.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The millineal kingdom is just a prelude to the new heaven and new earth.
Another great battle will come at its close.
Evidently all the dead are raised. Then issued life or death in the lake of fire.

The culmination or fulfilment of all things is when the throne of david is re established. That is the target. The throne of david with Jesus occupying that throne.
That is what heaven sees.

Only "the righteous" ENTER the MK ("the righteous into life eternal") and Jesus said, "and he that LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?" (That's at His Second Coming to the earth, for Martha KNEW of THIS subject of "resurrection" and Jesus is elaborating on that subject).

Only those BORN TO these mortal people will be susceptible to "DEATH" IN the MK and that is ONLY if they rebel (DEATH will be much more rare in the MK, and ONLY for those who REBEL). THUS, ONLY "the DEAD [unrighteous/unsaved DEAD]" of all times will be at the GWTj. All others [the righteous] will have been resurrected [or still living] at the start of the promised and prophesied earthly MK (i.e. at "the end of the age" and the start of "the age to come" / the MK; none of "the righteous" of all times MISS OUT on the MK "age to come")

 

[Absolutely]

Only "the righteous" ENTER the MK ("the righteous into life eternal") and Jesus said, "and he that LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?" (That's at His Second Coming to the earth, for Martha KNEW of THIS subject of "resurrection" and Jesus is elaborating on that subject).

Only those BORN TO these mortal people will be susceptible to "DEATH" IN the MK and that is ONLY if they rebel (DEATH will be much more rare in the MK, and ONLY for those who REBEL). THUS, ONLY "the DEAD [unrighteous/unsaved DEAD]" of all times will be at the GWTj. All others [the righteous] will have been resurrected [or still living] at the start of the promised and prophesied earthly MK (i.e. at "the end of the age" and the start of "the age to come" / the MK; none of "the righteous" of all times MISS OUT on the MK "age to come")

No,the righteous and the unrighteous are raised at the end of the mil.
Only THE DEAD IN CHRIST are raised at the rapture.
The trib saints are raised and in heaven early on in the trib, John saw them.
The 144 k are either raised or raptured in rev14. Then the ripe fruit which appear to be raptured alive.
That leaves many,many,many righteous to be risen.
( nominal backsliders included, as only those IN CHRIST, are raised at the rapture)
Backslidden carnal believers are not abiding in Christ

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No,the righteous and the unrighteous are raised at the end of the mil.
Only THE DEAD IN CHRIST are raised at the rapture.
The trib saints are raised and in heaven early on in the trib, John saw them.
The 144 k are either raised or raptured in rev14. Then the ripe fruit which appear to be raptured alive.
That leaves many,many,many righteous to be risen.
( nominal backsliders included, as only those IN CHRIST, are raised at the rapture)
Backslidden carnal believers are not abiding in Christ

For one, Daniel was told, in Dan12:13, "But go thou [Daniel] thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest [that is, in death], and stand in thy lot [that is, be resurrected to stand again on the earth] AT THE END OF THE DAYS [at the end of the days spoken of in that chpt 12 context; that is, at the END of the TRIB, at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly MK (Matt8:11 and parallel--OT saints with the "guests"), and the trib saints and martyrs will be RESURRECTED for it also [or some still be ALIVE to enter it in their mortal bodies!]]".

(Dan12:1-4,10 is completely distinct, and doesn't refer to a physical/bodily resurrection, but correlates with all of the other passages regarding ISRAEL coming up out of "the graveyard of nations": per Ezek37:12-14,20-23; Hos5:15-6:3; Isa26:16-21; Jn6:39[distinct from v.40]; Romans 11:15[25]; etc... [THAT happens IN the trib, not AFTER/END of it like Daniel's physical/bodily resurrection will])

 

[Nehemiah6]

That leaves many,many,many righteous to be risen.
( nominal backsliders included, as only those IN CHRIST, are raised at the rapture)
Backslidden carnal believers are not abiding in Christ

Those "in Christ" are those who have been saved by grace and are children of God through the New Birth. They have been placed "in Christ" by the Holy Spirit. And all of them are members of the Body, the Bride, and the Building of Christ.

God deals with backslidden and carnal believers at all times, but no child of God is left behind at the Rapture. Only the unsaved. That is what you will find in the Bible.

 

[Absolutely]

Those "in Christ" are those who have been saved by grace and are children of God through the New Birth. They have been placed "in Christ" by the Holy Spirit. And all of them are members of the Body, the Bride, and the Building of Christ.

God deals with backslidden and carnal believers at all times, but no child of God is left behind at the Rapture. Only the unsaved. That is what you will find in the Bible.

The parable of the 10 virgins tells a different story. Half the virgins were left behind. Virgins,pure holy believers,had light ,oil and were even watching for Jesus.
The rapture is the bride being gathered,not harlot,doubleminded carnal adulteresses. ( no doubt half the modern church) they WON'T go.
A harlot is a harlot by deeds. She can and is still family or could be a wife by contract. She would have misplaced emotions and values but still in "legal"standing.
In corinthians ( i can look it up) it says ".... Some are saved as through fire,they enter, but their works are burt up"

So,no, their are separate classes of believers. Saved, but carnal backsliders without a single eye to the groom. They have other interests as well. They are NOT TAKEN.
Noah had in laws as did lot. They were likewise left behind,as was Ruths sister-in-law and other family.

 

[Absolutely]

For one, Daniel was told, in Dan12:13, "But go thou [Daniel] thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest [that is, in death], and stand in thy lot [that is, be resurrected to stand again on the earth] AT THE END OF THE DAYS [at the end of the days spoken of in that chpt 12 context; that is, at the END of the TRIB, at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly MK (Matt8:11 and parallel--OT saints with the "guests"), and the trib saints and martyrs will be RESURRECTED for it also [or some still be ALIVE to enter it in their mortal bodies!]]".

(Dan12:1-4,10 is completely distinct, and doesn't refer to a physical/bodily resurrection, but correlates with all of the other passages regarding ISRAEL coming up out of "the graveyard of nations": per Ezek37:12-14,20-23; Hos5:15-6:3; Isa26:16-21; Jn6:39[distinct from v.40]; Romans 11:15[25]; etc... [THAT happens IN the trib, not AFTER/END of it like Daniel's physical/bodily resurrection will])

You are hinging that on conjecture.
Jesus raised the patriarchs that were in paradise. They are in heaven now.
That is a whole separate teaching.

Ask yourself about the parable of the wedding supper. The first group were outside God's will. They represent covenant rebellious Jews, NOT the patrirchs. The patriarchs were loyal and devoted. They are already there.
The patriachs will be at the wedding supper.
Daniel will not be raised at the GWTJ or during the trib.
And at the end of the trib,at the second coming i see zero resurrections.
In fact the ones gathered in mat 24 are gathered from heaven .
Notice in the 10 virgin parable they enter the bridal chamber. A place of intense intimacy.
She is with Jesus during the trib. The martyrs file in soon afterwards then the 144k and those ripe fruit in rev 14.
Obviously there are stragglers.
But many wait for the GWTJ after the mil.
My reading this am just happened to be in mat.
Amazingly mat 13 translates the wheat and tares judged at the GWTJ.

 

[Absolutely]

Only "the righteous" ENTER the MK ("the righteous into life eternal") and Jesus said, "and he that LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?" (That's at His Second Coming to the earth, for Martha KNEW of THIS subject of "resurrection" and Jesus is elaborating on that subject).

Only those BORN TO these mortal people will be susceptible to "DEATH" IN the MK and that is ONLY if they rebel (DEATH will be much more rare in the MK, and ONLY for those who REBEL). THUS, ONLY "the DEAD [unrighteous/unsaved DEAD]" of all times will be at the GWTj. All others [the righteous] will have been resurrected [or still living] at the start of the promised and prophesied earthly MK (i.e. at "the end of the age" and the start of "the age to come" / the MK; none of "the righteous" of all times MISS OUT on the MK "age to come")

Only the dead IN CHRIST are raised at the rapture.
The martyrs seen in heaven during the trib are also raised and have washed their dirty robes.
The only other resurrections i see are the 2 witnesses and possiby the 144 k since they are in heaven in rev14.
Since ALL THE REST OF THE DEAD are raised at the GWTJ and I see no other provision for carnal backsliders, and since sheep are present, they must be raised at that time.
It says "angels gather out of his kingdom" milineal kingdom.

 

[Absolutely]

Martyrs AUTOMATICALLY are elevated to the ( possibly) highest/higher positions. They receive the martyrs reward.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Read where the ac kills all who refuse the mark. Your scenario makes no provision for that. There are no christians alive mid trib. NONE.

Was i not talking about TODAY? Today there is no one that has ascended up to Heaven nor to Hell, because Judgment Day has not yet happened. Judgment Day is the ONLY DAY that will determine who will be Saved who is not Saved, who will be taken and who will be left behind. We do not die, go to Heaven or to Hell, then return again to be Judged whether we are going to Heaven or to Hell. i made no provisions for the antichrist and those who refuse the mark, because that is yet to come, in the future, and not TODAY.

Unless you find some cave dwellers or amazonian natives somewhere.
Just going by the word of God.

You say you are going by the Word of God, but do not quote the Scriptures which you claim, why is that?

You invoke infallibility. You need to stop doing that. You are easily in error.
Doing damage to God's reputation.

If it were from me, you are absolutely right, but as i have made clear over and over again on ChristianChat.com what i teach is what God told me, which is indeed infallable. If i stop teaching what God told me, how would this not upset God which told me to teach it? Should i then listen to you which instructs to stop doing that, or to God who teaches me to continue to teach those things that He told me to teach?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Hevosmies]

Was i not talking about TODAY? Today there is no one that has ascended up to Heaven nor to Hell, because Judgment Day has not yet happened. Judgment Day is the ONLY DAY that will determine who will be Saved who is not Saved, who will be taken and who will be left behind. We do not die, go to Heaven or to Hell, then return again to be Judged whether we are going to Heaven or to Hell. i made no provisions for the antichrist and those who refuse the mark, because that is yet to come, in the future, and not TODAY.



You say you are going by the Word of God, but do not quote the Scriptures which you claim, why is that?



If it were from me, you are absolutely right, but as i have made clear over and over again on ChristianChat.com what i teach is what God told me, which is indeed infallable. If i stop teaching what God told me, how would this not upset God which told me to teach it? Should i then listen to you which instructs to stop doing that, or to God who teaches me to continue to teach those things that He told me to teach?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Oy vey. A man claiming to be infallable?
We are told to test everything, yet your message CANNOT be tested, because you have already deemed it INFALLIBLE.
Does your cult have any followers, or is it just you and a couple of others?

Why isnt your writings in the Bible? Thats odd.

 

[tanakh]

The teaching regarding what is called he rapture is actually about the resurrection of the dead and what happens to Christians who are alive in natural bodies when Christ returns for the second time. When Paul spoke about the rapture he and his followers assumed that
Christ would return in their lifetime. That is why he had to assure the Thessalonians that Christ had not already returned and that those who had already died (fell asleep) had not missed out. He explained that he would bring them with him at his second coming.

Most of he popular teachings surrounding the rapture are either distortions or additions to plain text.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The teaching regarding what is called he rapture is actually about the resurrection of the dead and what happens to Christians who are alive in natural bodies when Christ returns for the second time.

It is about both, and technically the Rapture should be called the Resurrection/Rapture, But it happens BEFORE the second coming of Christ. Christ must first come FOR His saints before He can come WITH His saints. This is elementary, my dear Watson.

 

[tanakh]

It is about both, and technically the Rapture should be called the Resurrection/Rapture, But it happens BEFORE the second coming of Christ. Christ must first come FOR His saints before He can come WITH His saints. This is elementary, my dear Watson.

Hello Sherlock

Where do you think the saints he comes with go now? Are the twelve Apostles and the countless thousands of Christians
who have died since the resurrection hanging out somewhere waiting for this pre tribulation event. To make it more personal
if you or I died tonight would we be with Christ or would we be hanging out somewhere like the Caribbean waiting for the rapture
so that we could make a surprise return seven years later?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Where do you think the saints he comes with go now?...

They (their souls and spirits) go to be with Christ in Heaven until the resurrection of the saints. At the Resurrection/Rapture the saints (souls and spirits) who died in Christ (those who metaphorically *sleep in Christ*) are brought by Him (and with Him) to be united with their resurrected and glorified bodies.

And at the same time, those saints who are alive on earth are transformed -- perfected and also given glorified bodies. Then ALL THE GLORIFIED SAINTS (the Bride of Christ) rise to meet the Lord in the air and return with Him to Heaven.

Following that we must fit in the judgment of the works of the saints at Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven, and the handing out of rewards. And following that we see the Marriage of the Lamb (Rev 19). And following that we see ALL THE SAINTS AND ANGELS surrounding Christ as metaphorical clouds, and coming with Him at His second coming (Rev 20 and other passages).

2 THESSALONIANS 1 (THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST)
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[tanakh]

They (their souls and spirits) go to be with Christ in Heaven until the resurrection of the saints. At the Resurrection/Rapture the saints (souls and spirits) who died in Christ (those who metaphorically *sleep in Christ*) are brought by Him (and with Him) to be united with their resurrected and glorified bodies.

And at the same time, those saints who are alive on earth are transformed -- perfected and also given glorified bodies. Then ALL THE GLORIFIED SAINTS (the Bride of Christ) rise to meet the Lord in the air and return with Him to Heaven.

Following that we must fit in the judgment of the works of the saints at Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven, and the handing out of rewards. And following that we see the Marriage of the Lamb (Rev 19). And following that we see ALL THE SAINTS AND ANGELS surrounding Christ as metaphorical clouds, and coming with Him at His second coming (Rev 20 and other passages).

2 THESSALONIANS 1 (THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST)
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The problem is that neither Jesus Paul or anyone else mentions this divine seven year shuttle service beloved by Dispensationalists
In fact Peter tells his audience in Acts exactly where Jesus was and exactly how long he would be there'

And he shall send Jesus Christ which before was preached unto you
Whom the heaven shall receive until the restitution of all things
which god has spoken by the mouth of all of his Prophets since the
world began

ACTS 3: 20-21

If Christ is to be in Heaven until the restitution of all thing then
he is not going to be making a surprise trip near or on the Earth
seven years prior to that restitution taking place.

In Matthew 24: 29-31 Jesus said that his return would be after the tribulation
not before. He went on to say that the tribes of the earth shall mourn when they
see him and that he would send his Angels to gather his elect from the four winds
from one end of the earth to another.

This goes directly against the current teachings surrounding the rapture.

There is only one second coming not two the clue is in the phrasing
Everyone will know about it. There will be no secret connected with it
We have the exact words of Christ in Matthew. If we don't believe him
who do we believe?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Biblically speaking, the word "RETURN" speaks ONLY to His Second Coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 AND Lk19:12,15,17,19 and their parallels ]), NOT to, for, or about the time of our Rapture ['IN THE AIR']… and so Matthew 24 (the Olivet Discourse) speaks of THAT (the Rapture is NOT its subject, at all, per context).

So where Acts 3 states, "... UNTIL the times of restoration of all things, of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." this speaks of the future time period when prophetic truths [per OT, regarding the circumstances pertaining to His Second Coming to the earth] are set in motion (beginning with "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" which has its INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 "IN THE NIGHT"]" in the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord [time period]" along with its accompanying ["IN THE NIGHT"] ARRIVAL of the "man of sin" IN HIS TIME [Dan7:7 / Gen 46:2 / Amos 5:18 / 1Th5:5,7, etc]

… Jesus, at the time of our Rapture, is not "RETURNing" to the earth, at that point, He's catching UP "the Church which is His body" and then going on to kick into motion "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]," (paralleling the SEALS of Rev6, at the START!), the INITIAL ONE of which is the "G1500 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (that is, A CERTAIN PERSON), Matt24:4 / Mk13:5, i.e. the "whose COMING /ARRIVAL/ADVENT/PRESENCE/parousia" of the man of sin (2Th2:9a; Dan9:27a[26 - "the prince THAT SHALL COME"], at the START of those "7 years / ONE WEEK")… and that all STARTS when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev4-5, Lam2:2-3, etc...), and which point is FOLLOWED BY many MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" from there, over the course of some time (the 7 yrs).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT [continually ] : that should read "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (not G1500). Argh.


… and "Lam2:3-4" (not 2:2-3)

 

[tanakh]

Biblically speaking, the word "RETURN" speaks ONLY to His Second Coming to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 AND Lk19:12,15,17,19 and their parallels ]), NOT to, for, or about the time of our Rapture ['IN THE AIR']… and so Matthew 24 (the Olivet Discourse) speaks of THAT (the Rapture is NOT its subject, at all, per context).

So where Acts 3 states, "... UNTIL the times of restoration of all things, of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." this speaks of the future time period when prophetic truths [per OT, regarding the circumstances pertaining to His Second Coming to the earth] are set in motion (beginning with "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" which has its INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 "IN THE NIGHT"]" in the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord [time period]" along with its accompanying ["IN THE NIGHT"] ARRIVAL of the "man of sin" IN HIS TIME [Dan7:7 / Gen 46:2 / Amos 5:18 / 1Th5:5,7, etc]

… Jesus, at the time of our Rapture, is not "RETURNing" to the earth, at that point, He's catching UP "the Church which is His body" and then going on to kick into motion "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]," (paralleling the SEALS of Rev6, at the START!), the INITIAL ONE of which is the "G1500 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (that is, A CERTAIN PERSON), Matt24:4 / Mk13:5, i.e. the "whose COMING /ARRIVAL/ADVENT/PRESENCE/parousia" of the man of sin (2Th2:9a; Dan9:27a[26 - "the prince THAT SHALL COME"], at the START of those "7 years / ONE WEEK")… and that all STARTS when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev4-5, Lam2:2-3, etc...), and which point is FOLLOWED BY many MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" from there, over the course of some time (the 7 yrs).

This is a typical sample of gobbligook and scripture twisting beloved by Pre Rapture pundits. There is not one verse
in scripture that endorses the idea that Christ returns twice. Throughout scripture and Church history up until the 19th Century
there is no firm evidence of any notable widespread belief in a pre tribulation rapture. The Didache which is a first century document
records the belief on the subject by the early church. The relevant section states as follows.....

Be watchful over your life, never let your lamps go out or your loins be ungirt but keep your selves always in
readiness for you can never be sure of the hour when our Lord may be coming. Come often together for spiritual
improvement because all of your past years of your faith will be no good to you at the end, unless you have made yourself perfect. In the last days of the world false prophets and deceivers will abound sheep will be perverted and turn into wolves and love will change
to hate, for with the growth of lawlessness men will hate their fellows and persecute them and betray them. Then the deceiver of the world will show himself pretending to be a Son of God and doing signs and wonders and the earth will be delivered into his hands and he will work such wickedness as there has never been since the beginning After that all humankind will come up for their fiery trial multitudes of them will stumble and perish but such as remain steadfast in the faith will be saved by the curse*. And then the signs of the truth will appear first the sign of the opening heavens next the sign of the trumpets voice and thirdly the rising of the dead, not of all the dead , but as it says the Lord will come and with him all his holy ones And then the whole world will see the Lord as he comes riding on the clouds of heaven.

" 'The Curse' is believed to be a reference to Galatians 3:13 where it says Christ was made a curse for us.

The Didache section 2 part 16 From Early Christian Writings by Penguin Classics

There is no mention here of a two stage coming to whisk Christians away before the tribulation. Rather it maintains that
the fiery trial will test peoples faith