A place for rapture questions

[KJV1611]

The 1444,000 represent a number no man could count. (they dare not) God does not give exact numbers . He forbids the counting because people make it into a law and go no further. The Jehovah Witnesses for one make 1444,000 in respect to the elite elders . Problems have arisen since they did begin, the 1444,000 were fulfilled years ago. Unless reincarnation can come into the picture there is a overflow.

God condemned David for counting the troops. He wants us to walk by faith not my sight. The number represent the whole church as the caste virgin bride of Christ.....all the believers from the first to the last.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

Do you think this is an Old Testament reference to the 144000?

Ezekiel 9:4 KJV
And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Paul writes in the famous Rapture passage:

"According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord"

WE who are still alive, who are left. This makes it sound like the rapture was going to happen while Paul was alive. It is clear that is what it sounds like.

Someone pointed this out to me earlier, and I brushed it off saying Paul thought it was going to happen during his lifetime, but I just noticed that its a poor explanation, it implies Paul was just writing and guessing (and wrong in this case, since rapture/resurrection didnt happen in his lifetime), which would make it NOT God's word. God doesnt guess and estimate.

So what say we? How do we explain this? Ahwatukee you got something?

The thing Paul was tasked with doing has to do with "the Church which is His body" (its doctrine, its position, its privileges, etc).

He knows that "the Church which is His body" exists on the earth up until our "Rapture," thus, some (OF US [THE BODY of Christ]) indeed will be "alive and remain" unto that point in time. That is, the "we" in the phrase "then WE which are alive and remain" refers to "then WE [of the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY] who are alive and remain..." who will be caught up together [AS ONE] with "the DEAD IN CHRIST" (the other part of the ONE BODY). The "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to (to, for, and about) "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints). This is how Paul can say, "then WE which are alive and remain unto..."


[2Cor11:2--Paul was tasked with THIS ("A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ"--"For I am jealous over you [plural] with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you [plural] to one husband, that I may present you [understood plural 'you'] as AS CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ.")]

 

[Absolutely]

When Jesus spoke the Olivet Discourse, He had not yet mentioned anything about "Rapture". When the disciples asked Him about "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" [Matt24:3] (based on what He had PREVIOUSLY spoken with them about in Matt13:30,39,40,49-50, when the angels will REAP [not our Rapture]), He's responding all about His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (which they were RIGHTLY EXPECTING, as "the age [singular] to come").

He is not coming to MARRY "TEN virgins" nor even FIVE! [Matt25:10nasb "they that were ready went in with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST" (NOT "G4862 - with - syn - denoting 'UNION' as is used of us re: our Rapture), He will be returning at that point as an "already-wed Bridegroom" WITH [G4862 - syn (UNIONED with)] His already-wed "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" FOR the earthly MK, which will now be commencing upon His "return" there. That is the distinction between Rev19:7 and 19:9 (19:9 is not taking place IN HEAVEN, nor is Lk22:16,18/Matt26:29/Matt19:28/Matt25:31-34/etc).

Daniel (OT saint) was told he would be resurrected "AT THE END OF THE DAYS [at the END of the days referred to in that context; that is, at the END of the trib]"; He and other OT saints were NOT promised "RAPTURE," which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" [saints of 'this present age'; which is distinct from "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" that the disciples were asking their question out of [where they were standing, when they asked it and Jesus was answering it]).


It DOES "fit perfectly" and no one has to twist it into Him supposedly MARRYING "FIVE VIRGINS" (that's rather wacked!)

In the Jewish wedding custom the groom and his father went to the brides house and sat at table with a cup of wine. If she also drank after he offered it to her, they were betrothed.
He then went back to his fathers house and built a room onto his fathers house for his bride and himself in which,when finished,he would "culminate" the marriage in the marriage bed.

A vivid picture of the last supper.
We are betrothed now and Jesus is back with the father.
We are the awaiting virgins.


( i know culminate is the wrong word)
Brain needs more coffee lol

 

[garee]

Paul writes in the famous Rapture passage:

"According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord"

WE who are still alive, who are left. This makes it sound like the rapture was going to happen while Paul was alive. It is clear that is what it sounds like.

Someone pointed this out to me earlier, and I brushed it off saying Paul thought it was going to happen during his lifetime, but I just noticed that its a poor explanation, it implies Paul was just writing and guessing (and wrong in this case, since rapture/resurrection didnt happen in his lifetime), which would make it NOT God's word. God doesnt guess and estimate.

So what say we? How do we explain this? Ahwatukee you got something?

It would seem the we which are alive is speaking of Christians that will be alive on the last day, the day we receive our new bodies and the same day the first death is cast in the lake of fire, the second death.

It will no cancel out or prevent those who were part of the first resurrection identified as asleep . But together as the second and final resurrection both will receive the promise of their new incorruptible bodies in the new heavens and earth .

The sun and moon as temporal time keepers will be under the feet of His new chaste virgin bride. She will not be subject to time ever again .And the former things of this temporal life will not be remembered or ever come to mind.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Absolutely]

The 1444,000 represent a number no man could count. (they dare not) God does not give exact numbers . He forbids the counting because people make it into a law and go no further. The Jehovah Witnesses for one make 1444,000 in respect to the elite elders . Problems have arisen since they did begin, the 1444,000 were fulfilled years ago. Unless reincarnation can come into the picture there is a overflow.

God condemned David for counting the troops. He wants us to walk by faith not my sight. The number represent the whole church as the caste virgin bride of Christ.....all the believers from the first to the last.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

No, they are Jews.
Jews directly from the 12 tribes.
It explicitly describes them as Jews. Nothing gentile ( non Jew) about them.

 

[Absolutely]

 

[garee]

Do you think this is an Old Testament reference to the 144000?

Ezekiel 9:4 KJV
And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

I don't think it has to do with numbering or counting. Which is forbidden. Again we walk by faith the eternal not seen and are not considered one of the number who compare themselves to themselves rather than comparing themselves to as it is written.

I think it represents the believers who do mix faith (believe God not seen ) as those who are given rest (sabbath) from their own works not hardening their hearts in unbelief no faith according to Hebrew 4

Forehead had to with the mind, just a the hand would have to do with the will.

An apposing what I call parable in regard to those who do not receive rest from their owns works but hearts remain hard are those who sell the truth of the gospel and not buy what it say or does in our new hearts.

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six .Revelation 13:16-18

That beast of the field a term that means formed from the dust of the field . the beast is shown as one influenced by the god of this world Satan as was Peter in Mathews 16: 22-23. when Peter's heart was hardened as the I things of men and denied Christ.

666 is the number of convered man as a restless wanderer not receiving the rest that comes from not hardening ones heart but mixes faith (believes God not seen )

So while one mark represents those who did have faith, believers like Abel. The other represents those who had no faith, no rest like Cain

The punishment below is no rest, a punishment that Christ alone did bear. It would appear the death penalty was to good for him (no suffering the tribulations of this life)

And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

 

[Noose]

The thing Paul was tasked with doing has to do with "the Church which is His body" (its doctrine, its position, its privileges, etc).

He knows that "the Church which is His body" exists on the earth up until our "Rapture," thus, some (OF US [THE BODY of Christ]) indeed will be "alive and remain" unto that point in time. That is, the "we" in the phrase "then WE which are alive and remain" refers to "then WE [of the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY] who are alive and remain..." who will be caught up together [AS ONE] with "the DEAD IN CHRIST" (the other part of the ONE BODY). The "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to (to, for, and about) "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints). This is how Paul can say, "then WE which are alive and remain unto..."


[2Cor11:2--Paul was tasked with THIS ("A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ"--"For I am jealous over you [plural] with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you [plural] to one husband, that I may present you [understood plural 'you'] as AS CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR] to Christ.")]

That is not what Paul taught and it is not what Paul was tasked. Paul also counted himself amongst the dead who will raised and caught up together with his 1st century listeners at Corinth:

2 Cor 4:
11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14 because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

If Paul is simply talking on the behalf of a chaste virgin who will be caught up during times of trouble, then that chaste virgin shall surely die because Paul counts himself dead and raised to be caught up with people at Corinth.
Your theology is popular but false.

 

[Noose]

It would seem the we which are alive is speaking of Christians that will be alive on the last day, the day we receive our new bodies and the same day the first death is cast in the lake of fire, the second death.

It will no cancel out or prevent those who were part of the first resurrection identified as asleep . But together as the second and final resurrection both will receive the promise of their new incorruptible bodies in the new heavens and earth .

The sun and moon as temporal time keepers will be under the feet of His new chaste virgin bride. She will not be subject to time ever again .And the former things of this temporal life will not be remembered or ever come to mind.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Popular but false theology. Resurrection is a continuous affair even today.

1 Thess 4:14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

'We who are alive' simply represented those that were alive and were being addressed by Paul in the 1st century including Paul himself. If Paul was talking about some unknown time in future he would have said '..those that will be alive..'.

Presented with another opportunity, Paul uses the same line of thought and completely kills the idea that resurrection is a future mega event. here:

2 Cor 4:
11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

The 'you' in this phrase represents the 1st century listeners from Corinth that Paul was addressing. There's no reason to believe Paul is talking about some unknown future day because he is writing letters to teach these people the resurrection doctrine. If Paul meant some future day, he would have said so.

 

[garee]

Popular but false theology. Resurrection is a continuous affair even today.

I would agree the first resurrection that began when Christ said; it is finished...... is a continuous affair even today. Today to be absent from the body as a disembodied spirit is to be present with those who are asleep. I am referring to the last day when those here on earth will rise up and meet in the clouds as the invisible presence of God with the wake up call in respect to those who are asleep and together rise up to receive their new incorruptible body.

It would seem you call it one while I refer to it as two?

 

[garee]

No, they are Jews.
Jews directly from the 12 tribes.
It explicitly describes them as Jews. Nothing gentile ( non Jew) about them.

God defines the word Jew.Not a Jew according to the flesh. The new name God named His born again people he onced called a inward Jew is Christian .In that way you could say a Christian is a inward Jew born of the Spirit of Christ.

Jew or Gentile, if neither have the Spirit of Christ they simply do not belong to Him What do you think not of the flesh means?

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Its not as if some Jew did not have their green cards(Revelation 2:9)

The Jew below is in respect to the new name God name his bride the church, Christian . One bride neither male nor female, Jew nor gentile,

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan

Its those outward Jew who do not have the born again Spirit of Christ whom the scriptures defines as antichrists. Salvation has nothing to do with the flesh of a Jew.

We walk by faith the eternal not seen. And not after the temporal flesh as that seen . Again God is not a man as us .Its his unseen Spirit that does the quickening.

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[Noose]

I would agree the first resurrection that began when Christ said; it is finished...... is a continuous affair even today. Today to be absent from the body as a disembodied spirit is to be present with those who are asleep. I am referring to the last day when those here on earth will rise up and meet in the clouds as the invisible presence of God with the wake up call in respect to those who are asleep and together rise up to receive their new incorruptible body.

It would seem you call it one while I refer to it as two?

In 1 Thess 4 and 2 Cor 4, Paul is writing letters to a group of people to address certain doctrinal issues with them, so he is addressing them directly. When He says "..we who are alive..." as in the case of 1 Thess 4 or "..we will be raised and be presented together with you..", he is actually talking about events that were about to happen in the 1st century, not 21st century.

 

[Hevosmies]

In 1 Thess 4 and 2 Cor 4, Paul is writing letters to a group of people to address certain doctrinal issues with them, so he is addressing them directly. When He says "..we who are alive..." as in the case of 1 Thess 4 or "..we will be raised and be presented together with you..", he is actually talking about events that were about to happen in the 1st century, not 21st century.

Spoiler alert: Those events did not happen in the 1st century.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 has NEVER happened. It would have been documented had it happened already.

 

[Absolutely]

God defines the word Jew.Not a Jew according to the flesh. The new name God named His born again people he onced called a inward Jew is Christian .In that way you could say a Christian is a inward Jew born of the Spirit of Christ.

Jew or Gentile, if neither have the Spirit of Christ they simply do not belong to Him What do you think not of the flesh means?

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Its not as if some Jew did not have their green cards(Revelation 2:9)

The Jew below is in respect to the new name God name his bride the church, Christian . One bride neither male nor female, Jew nor gentile,

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan

Its those outward Jew who do not have the born again Spirit of Christ whom the scriptures defines as antichrists. Salvation has nothing to do with the flesh of a Jew.

We walk by faith the eternal not seen. And not after the temporal flesh as that seen . Again God is not a man as us .Its his unseen Spirit that does the quickening.

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Ironically romans paints a clear distinction between them.
They are covenant people and will eventually turn to Jesus.
The gt is a time of " Israel's trouble"
Jacob's to be exact.
Rev 14 is a jewish harvest.
The first is last. They come home lastly

 

[Absolutely]

Spoiler alert: Those events did not happen in the 1st century.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 has NEVER happened. It would have been documented had it happened already.

Some views are off the charts.
A wrong starting place leads into a strange brew.

 

[Absolutely]

In the Jewish wedding custom the groom and his father went to the brides house and sat at table with a cup of wine. If she also drank after he offered it to her, they were betrothed.
He then went back to his fathers house and built a room onto his fathers house for his bride and himself in which,when finished,he would "culminate" the marriage in the marriage bed.

A vivid picture of the last supper.
We are betrothed now and Jesus is back with the father.
We are the awaiting virgins.


( i know culminate is the wrong word)
Brain needs more coffee lol

Consumate.

 

[Hevosmies]

The Matthew 25:31-34 Sheep are (at that point) entering the promised and prophesied earthly MK (promised to Israel) BECAUSE they themselves will have "BLESSED" the least of these My brethren (the believing remnant of Israel/Jews who will have come to faith WITHIN the trib, and thus be being gravely persecuted at that time [having a msg of Truth not everyone will like/appreciate/believe]), and will thus themselves [the Sheep/Gentiles] be called "BLESSED" by our Lord, at that separation judgment, determining who will enter the earthly MK when He "comes" (to sit on that earthly throne).

Hello friend. Why do you say they are promised earthly blessings when it says sheep are given eternal life?

When will they get their glorified resurrection body, if they go to the millennium in the flesh, but they cant die (since eternal life)?

 

[Hevosmies]

Regarding the results for both, we know that the sheep will eventually receive their immortal and glorified bodies and inherit eternal life.

I assume they wont die, since they have "eternal life" (unless it means eternal life like christians 'have' eternal life today but still die in the flesh?. So maybe they are transformed at the end of the millennium without seeing death?

But they can still reproduce because they arent yet in glorified bodies, BUT they live for the entire duration of the millennium because of the tree of life or something of that sort? And their offspring will then be the rebels in the Gog and Magog war?

Any opinions? This is just guess work i know, but what do you think?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hello friend. Why do you say they are promised earthly blessings when it says sheep are given eternal life?

When will they get their glorified resurrection body, if they go to the millennium in the flesh, but they cant die (since eternal life)?

I believe that no one who ENTERS the MK time period will "die" ['the righteous'/the 'ye BLESSED']; they have eternal life (though still in mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children. It is the children born to them that will not be "born [automatically] righteous [possessing eternal life]" that will be susceptible to "death/dying," but only those who rebel will die [and later be present at the GWTj for the final carrying out of that sentence])

I believe this, for one, because Jesus said "I AM the Resurrection AND the LIFE" (John 11:25) and He will be present there (having "returned"), so the verse goes on to say, "he that believeth on Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" ('I AM the resurrection'), and then the next verse goes on to say, "AND whosoever LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?" ('AND the LIFE'). [I see Matt25:31-34 and context being about LIVING ppl [mortals] when He returns to the earth, as well as parts of Matt13]

I also see where Matthew 18:8 sets in contradistinction "to be cast into everlasting fire" with "enter into life halt or maimed" and verse 19 stating, "9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." [verse 3 had just said, "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of the heavens [i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly MK]; see also Mk9:40-48, where vv.1-8 had just told about the Transfiguration (which I believe is a glimpse of the future MK/glorious reign)]; I'm thinking this may be where the "for the healing of the nations" comes in, per Rev22:2 ??

Hope that helps you see some of my perspective.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In 1 Thess 4 and 2 Cor 4, Paul is writing letters to a group of people to address certain doctrinal issues with them, so he is addressing them directly. When He says "..we who are alive..." as in the case of 1 Thess 4 or "..we will be raised and be presented together with you..", he is actually talking about events that were about to happen in the 1st century, not 21st century.

While I agree that sometimes it is referring to the here and now (Philippians 3:10-14 would be one example, which I see as referring to the here and now, whereas some see this as a rapture-type passage), there are other passages which I believe DO refer to the actual time and place of our ['the Church which is His body' SOLELY] Rapture, and one of those is 1Th4 as well as the phrase "The Departure FIRST" (before 'the day of the Lord [time period]' can "BE PRESENT" to play out on the earth over the course of some time, STARTING with the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" [of the man of sin, IN HIS TIME], 2Th2:3[1]=Rapture). One other place I see this (besides 1Th1:10 and 5:8c/9-10 "WITH [G4862 - denoting 'UNION']") is in 1 Corinthians 6:3 (future "we SHALL judge angels") and its associated verse 14, which verb [regarding US] is used only one other place, and tells of "PURPOSE" (meaning, one of the PURPOSES of our ['the Church which is His body'] RAPTURE (and along with that idea, how 1Cor11:26 says, "...for as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do SHEW/PROCLAIM the Lord's DEATH TILL He come" [that is, till He come for us in our RAPTURE, at which point we will be CORPORATELY "proclaiming" something ELSE! ])


The "WITH" word (pointed out in your post above) is "G4862" (used of "the Church which is His body" in passages pertaining to our Rapture event) denotes "UNION" (AS ONE), whereas other passages NOT about the Church use "G3326" (Matt25:10, for example)