A place for rapture questions

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 27, 2018

^ then, along with that, note also the "G4749 - stole " word I'd also pointed out (distinct from the "G2440 - himation" word); and notice how it is used in Rev7:9,13,14 and in Rev22:14 (and what it says there). Recall, I see 7:14-17 as parallel with Isa49:10 an earthly MK passage.

["that they may... enter in through the GATES into the city."]

Hevosmies · Sep 27, 2018

Noose said:

i misunderstood you then. My apologies. Im sorry

Ahwatukee · Sep 27, 2018

Absolutely said:

Good day Absolutely,

Regarding the GTS being resurrected after the great tribulation, below is the chronological order as it appears in scripture:

You are correct, for John to see them beheaded and then say "they lived" demonstrates that they were dead and then they came back to life.

Revelation 19:11-21 = The second coming when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom

Revelation 20:1-3 = Satan bound in the Abyss during Christ thousand year reign

Revelation 20:4-6 = Great tribulation saints are resurrected and rule with Christ for a thousand years

Therefore, I do not understand why you keep insisting that the GTS will not be resurrected after the tribulation when Jesus returns to the earth?

Rev.19:11-21 thru Rev.20:1-15, covers the following in chronological order:

* Christ's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom
* The beast and the false prophet being thrown alive into the lake of fire
* Satan being thrown into and sealed in the Abyss during the thousand years
* The resurrection of the great tribulation saints
* Satan's release from the Abyss and his last deception
* The great white throne judgment

All of the above will happen in that order just as it appears in scripture.

It's not a bad translation. It is you who does not understand.

If you have John seeing them beheaded and they live and rule with Christ a thousand years, then some transformation had to take place, because they are not going to reign here on earth in the spirit form.

Absolutely · Sep 27, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Thats the ones already resurrected a few years earlier
Show me the supposed resurrection at the second coming.

Absolutely · Sep 27, 2018

TheDivineWatermark said:

Well it has to fit.
1) Jesus did say he was going to heaven to prepare a place for them.
He said they would drink the cup again there.
2) rev 19 says the bride has become the wife in heaven.
3) mat 25 has the groom fetching the bride and entering the marriage chamber. The marrige chamber was a part of the fathers house traditionally.

It, the wedding supper ,is in heaven

Absolutely · Sep 27, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

The "first resurrection" has phases or stages to it:

* Jesus the first fruits (Already fulfilled)
* The church at the Lord's appearing (dead and living which is imminent)
* The Male Child i.e. 144,000 (Caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years)
* The Two Witnesses (killed in the middle of the seven years and resurrected and ascend)
* The great Tribulation saints (Resurrected when Christ returns to the earth to end the age and establish His kingdom)

All of the above take place prior to and at the beginning of the millennial period and belong to the first resurrection.

The resurrection which takes place at the end of the millennial kingdom will be for all of the unrighteous dead throughout all history of whom the second death will have power over (Rev.20:11-15)

When Jesus said the above, He was speaking to His disciples and therefore to the church. The great tribulation saints will not be at the wedding because 1). they are not the bride. If they were, then they would have been ready when the Lord came for the church. And 2). They are killed during the last 3 1/2 of that seven year period by order of the beast and therefore, could not possibly be in heaven to attend the wedding of the Lamb, which will be in process at that time. The wedding of Lamb is where the bride/church receives her fine linen, white and pure:

"Let us rejoice and celebrate and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.”

For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints.

The wedding of the Lamb takes place during the time of God's wrath upon the earth, which is when the GTS will be killed because of their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. The GTS will be on the earth because they will have not be ready when the Lord appeared to gather the church.

The church is a specific group which was initiated by Christ and will be completed when the Lord appears to gather the entire church, which is next event to take place. The GTS will be those who will receive Christ after they realize that the church has been caught up and that during the time of God's wrath. The GTS do not belong to the church, nor does Israel or the 144,000. These are all different groups.

The church age ends at the time when the Lord appears to gather us.

GTS Are in heaven resurrected early on in the gt.
John. Saw them. There is no ressurrection at the 2nd coming

Ahwatukee · Sep 27, 2018

Absolutely said:

That's a vision of the GTS before the GT begins and before they are killed. Remember, the elder in Rev.7:14 told John "These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation," i.e. exposed to it and were killed in it. Jesus identified the great tribulation as beginning when the abomination is set up, which would mean that the great tribulation period begins from the middle of the seven years and covers the entire last 3 1/2 years. That being true, there is no way that the GTS are killed and resurrected during the early part of the seven years. To be clear, the souls under the at the opening of the 5th seal are not the GTS, but are those who will have died during the first 3 1/2 years.

Absolutely · Sep 27, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

Now factor in that the martyrs were not allowed from under the altar " until your number is fulfilled"
The GTS are NOT under the altar,meaning the number is fulfilled.
Read rev 20 again. The ones on thrones have been there a while. Having been asighned thrones. No mention of a resurrection. All that is said is a CONTRAST between the 1st res and the second death. That is all it is. It is not saying they rose right then and there.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 27, 2018

Absolutely said:

When Jesus spoke the Olivet Discourse, He had not yet mentioned anything about "Rapture". When the disciples asked Him about "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" [Matt24:3] (based on what He had PREVIOUSLY spoken with them about in Matt13:30,39,40,49-50, when the angels will REAP [not our Rapture]), He's responding all about His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (which they were RIGHTLY EXPECTING, as "the age [singular] to come").

He is not coming to MARRY "TEN virgins" nor even FIVE! [Matt25:10nasb "they that were ready went in with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST" (NOT "G4862 - with - syn - denoting 'UNION' as is used of us re: our Rapture), He will be returning at that point as an "already-wed Bridegroom" WITH [G4862 - syn (UNIONED with)] His already-wed "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" FOR the earthly MK, which will now be commencing upon His "return" there. That is the distinction between Rev19:7 and 19:9 (19:9 is not taking place IN HEAVEN, nor is Lk22:16,18/Matt26:29/Matt19:28/Matt25:31-34/etc).

Daniel (OT saint) was told he would be resurrected "AT THE END OF THE DAYS [at the END of the days referred to in that context; that is, at the END of the trib]"; He and other OT saints were NOT promised "RAPTURE," which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" [saints of 'this present age'; which is distinct from "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" that the disciples were asking their question out of [where they were standing, when they asked it and Jesus was answering it]).

It DOES "fit perfectly" and no one has to twist it into Him supposedly MARRYING "FIVE VIRGINS" (that's rather wacked!)

Noose · Sep 28, 2018

TheDivineWatermark said:

This kind of teaching is found nowhere in the bible. There's no church and Jews, only believers. The bible has clearly defined what a new covenant Jew is:

Rom 2:28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

And with this respect, a gentile means an unbeliever- take note.

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 28, 2018

Noose said:

I believe that Romans 2:28 is talking about Jews. Jews only. "...who IS ONE..." INWARDLY. The verse is not speaking of Gentiles who became Christians/believers, as though it said, "a person [whether originally Jew or Gentile] IS A Jew inwardly [once they are saved]." No. That is not at all what the verse is conveying. That is to mis-read the words and what they are actually saying.

Also, Gal6:16's "peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God" (the bold) is also speaking of those of Israel WHO BELIEVED [or who WILL BELIEVE (future)]; The "upon them" and the "upon the Israel of God" are distinct because they are separated by the words "and mercy". If it just said, "upon them, and [/even] upon the Israel of God," a case could reasonably made that they are one and the same entity (the "and" could mean "even" [being the same entity]), but as it stands (as written, with the "and mercy" separating these), this case cannot be made.

There is:

--"the Church which is His body"

--Israel (Jews)

--Gentiles

[1Cor10:32 etc]

TheDivineWatermark · Sep 28, 2018

[--edit--]

There is:

--"the Church which is His body" (wherein there is neither Jew nor Gentile in our standing before God, IN CHRIST) [Eph1:20-23 WHEN]

--Israel (Jews)

--Gentiles

[1Cor10:32 etc]

Hevosmies · Sep 28, 2018

Noose said:

Yup I agree with that.

There is only one people of God (The Church) comprised of BOTH regenerated JEWS and GENTILES.
Im not a fan of the two people of God theory.

garee · Sep 28, 2018

TheDivineWatermark said:

All Israel is not Israel. The "Israel of God" as those who have the born again Spirit of Christ clearly differs from the "Israel of men" (natural unconverted men.) This is just as sons of God differ form son of men. Its the Israel who have believed, not the ones that might. Salvation come by believing not speculating or guessing,

The context of chapter 2 would not allow that kind of interpretation. God is not a Jew, he is not a man us.

Why the Jew thing their flesh has nothing to do with salvation ?What the hope is there in making the flesh of a Jew something that would rise above the flesh of a Gentile. All have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God .

God earlier in that chapter says he is no respecter of person.

The word he in for he is not a Jew is speaking of persons not Jews. God puts no difference between a Jew and Gentile. Purifying the heart of both by a work of His faith

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.Romans 2

garee · Sep 28, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Dispensationalism needs to be a two people of God theory or it crumbles. In that way eschatology is not the fundamental difference between Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism, but eschatology is simply an effect of the fundamental difference. The fundamental difference is actually seen in the difference between Israel and the church.

Hevosmies · Sep 28, 2018

Paul writes in the famous Rapture passage:

"According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord"

WE who are still alive, who are left. This makes it sound like the rapture was going to happen while Paul was alive. It is clear that is what it sounds like.

Someone pointed this out to me earlier, and I brushed it off saying Paul thought it was going to happen during his lifetime, but I just noticed that its a poor explanation, it implies Paul was just writing and guessing (and wrong in this case, since rapture/resurrection didnt happen in his lifetime), which would make it NOT God's word. God doesnt guess and estimate.

So what say we? How do we explain this? Ahwatukee you got something?

Absolutely · Sep 28, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Who are the 144k ?
Who is the woman whisked away to safety from satan during the gt?

garee · Sep 28, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Yes very simply once finding out what the term being bound represents. Can't bind a lying spirit with a literal chain. The idea of a society absent from lies I would think is not taught in the Bible. That will be in the new heavens and earth .

The gospel does the binding and loosening , it is the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against.

Remember the language of Revelation is not only "inspired" but is also "signified"

Revelation 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

You could say it is all one parable that conceals the spiritual understanding from the lost. Revealing it to a kingdom of priests who walk by faith, the unseen eternal. Like the parable below. It is a honor to us in whom he calls kings to search as for silver or gold the pearl of great price (the gospel )

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Looking to the literal as that seen, the temporal does not provide the signified spiritual understanding.We walk by faith the unseen eternal

For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Corinthians 4:17-18

Absolutely · Sep 28, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Inthe parable of the 10 virgins they went out to meet the groom.
It says he tarried. They ended up waiting,but ready and expecting.
If one is not expecting his return,one is even more foolish than the 5 foolish.

The doctrine of imminent return.
Also note " but of the day and hour no man knows,only the father"
A mystery.

garee · Sep 28, 2018

Absolutely said:

The 1444,000 represent a number no man could count. (they dare not) God does not give exact numbers . He forbids the counting because people make it into a law and go no further. The Jehovah Witnesses for one make 1444,000 in respect to the elite elders . Problems have arisen since they did begin, the 1444,000 were fulfilled years ago. Unless reincarnation can come into the picture there is a overflow.

God condemned David for counting the troops. He wants us to walk by faith not my sight. The number represent the whole church as the caste virgin bride of Christ.....all the believers from the first to the last.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

A place for rapture questions

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