A place for rapture questions

[Nehemiah6]

I believe the people in Rev7:9,14 are of the nations [plural; Gentiles] coming out of "the GREAT tribulation" (i.e. the 2nd half of the 7 years, not immediately before the start of the 7 yrs, as our Rapture is).

"These are they which came out of great tribulation" (Rev 7:14) has generally been interpreted to mean that the entire Church as GONE THROUGH the Great Tribulation (and "the" should be inserted before "great" according to the Greek text).

However, since the Great Tribulation is a consequence of the Abomination of Desolation, and ALL the Tribulation Saints are martyred by beheading (Rev 20:4), it means that Rev 7:14 has been misunderstood. "Came out of" should be interpreted as "escaped", not "subjected to". Which again confirms that there is a Pre-tribulation Rapture.

 

[Hevosmies]

You really have no clue of what you say. There's really no such thing as rapture, no pretrib/mid trib/ post trib anything.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that,we who are alive and remain will be caught uptogether with them in the clouds to meet the Lord inthe air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Why was Paul counting himself amongst those that will be alive when Jesus comes?

I dont know? What is your explanation? Why did Paul count himself among those that will be alive when Jesus comes? My explanation is Paul thought Jesus would return during his lifetime.
What is yours? PLease answer, im intrigued

 

[Hevosmies]

Rev 7:14 has been misunderstood. "Came out of" should be interpreted as "escaped", not "subjected to". Which again confirms that there is a Pre-tribulation Rapture.

could someone who knows greek check this out? This would be a nice proof-text for the rapture if it works out in the greek.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"These are they which came out of great tribulation" (Rev 7:14) has generally been interpreted to mean that the entire Church as GONE THROUGH the Great Tribulation (and "the" should be inserted before "great" according to the Greek text).

However, since the Great Tribulation is a consequence of the Abomination of Desolation, and ALL the Tribulation Saints are martyred by beheading (Rev 20:4), it means that Rev 7:14 has been misunderstood. "Came out of" should be interpreted as "escaped", not "subjected to". Which again confirms that there is a Pre-tribulation Rapture.

I believe the wording says "coming [present participle] out of". I do not believe the "a great multitude... of all the nations" refers to "the Church which is His body," but those to whom the Matthew 24:14 [26:13] message WILL BE "preached in all the world for a witness unto all the nations" DURING the trib (AFTER "the Church which is His body" has been raptured out) [comp. Rev7:9 with Matt24:14]. I believe the INITIAL one of the "beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11) EQUAL the SEALS of Rev6, in the BEGINNING of the future 7-yr trib (the Rapture occurring BEFORE the first "PANG [singular; 1Th5:2-3]")

Additionally, I believe the word "escape" in Lk21:36 is referring to those WITHIN the trib, who will "[ACTIVELY] flee out of" each and every one of the things certain to come to pass on the earth during the trib, and TO STAND BEFORE [that is, in a judicial sense] "the Son of man" (and I believe that ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/etc" passages [see v.27] refer to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH [NOT our Rapture]); thus, for them to stand before the Son of man , that is, at His role at that time and place (that is, the earthly MK and their entrance into that "age [singular]"/"the age [singular] to come").

I believe the 24 elders represent "the Church which is His body" rather than the "a great multitude… of all the nations" (set in contradistinction to the 144,000 (singular nation) also located on the earth. One of the elders speaks with John, and knows "from whence cometh these...; coming out of THE GREAT tribulation [2nd half of trib]" and I believe a clue is also supplied in the distinction between G4749 and G2440 (and the situations surrounding these, i.e. contexts where found).


I believe the SEQUENCE shown in Matt22:7-8 shows the same; that is, AFTER the v.7 70ad events, then the v.8 "THEN SAITH HE TO His servants" refers to the 95ad writing of "The Revelation" (comp 1:1 with 7:3, and 4:1 [future events, which will take place "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--not during the past 2000-yrs])

 

[Ahwatukee]

I disagree that Jesus, in saying what He did in Luke 22:30,16,18 (Matt19:28 [25:31-34 for timing]; Matt26:29; and all of the several "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passages), meant that "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" would be located "IN HEAVEN," but rather in the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (upon His "RETURN" there).

Hello DivinWatermark,

The problem with your claim is that we already have scriptures that reveal the wedding of the Lamb taking place in heaven. Consider the following:

"Then He took the cup, gave thanks and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until the day when I drink it anew with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

"I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven." - Matt.8:11

"Hallelujah! For our Lord God, the Almighty, reigns.
Let us rejoice and celebrate and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.” - Rev.19:6-8

The above shows the wedding taking place in heaven. And following the wedding of the Lamb, the Lord's descent to the earth takes place, with His bride/church with Him:

"He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood,a and His name is The Word of God. The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses."

During the wedding of the Lamb, the bride/church receives her fine linen, white and pure. Then in verse 14 we see the armies i.e. the bride/church wearing her fine linen that she will have previously received at the wedding of the Lamb and will be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses.

The distinction between Rev19:7's "aorist" (already-wed "MARRIAGE" itself, IN HEAVEN) and Rev19:9's NOT aorist (but where He will then, at that time, be headed DOWN TO, WITH His "already-wed Bride/Wife [singular]" FOR the earthly MK/wedding FEAST-SUPPER--where the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passages pick up, where the "guests [plural]," and the "bridesmaids/virgins [plural]," and the "servants [plural; of that specific time period]" continue the chronology... [the "Bride/Wife [singular]" not being mentioned in those gospel accounts/passages]...)

The scripture is self explanatory. All your doing is confusing the issue with your claims of the aorist, plural, etc. because the meaning is very clear that the wedding takes place in heaven.

* The marriage of the Lamb as come
* His Bride/church has made herself ready
* The bride/church is given clothing of fine linen, white and pure
* The fine linen represents her righteous acts
* The Lord descends to the earth to end the age, with His bride following Him on white horses

In further support of this, we have Rev.17:14 which reveals the church returning with Christ out of heaven after the wedding:

"These (beast and ten kings) will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those with Him are called and chosen and faithful."

 

[Ahwatukee]

I disagree that Jesus, in saying what He did in Luke 22:30,16,18 (Matt19:28 [25:31-34 for timing]; Matt26:29; and all of the several "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passages), meant that "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" would be located "IN HEAVEN," but rather in the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (upon His "RETURN" there). The distinction between Rev19:7's "aorist" (already-wed "MARRIAGE" itself, IN HEAVEN) and Rev19:9's NOT aorist (but where He will then, at that time, be headed DOWN TO, WITH His "already-wed Bride/Wife [singular]" FOR the earthly MK/wedding FEAST-SUPPER--where the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passages pick up, where the "guests [plural]," and the "bridesmaids/virgins [plural]," and the "servants [plural; of that specific time period]" continue the chronology... [the "Bride/Wife [singular]" not being mentioned in those gospel accounts/passages]...)

The Jewish wedding had/has three steps to it:

1). a marriage contract was signed by the parents of the bride and the bridegroom, and the parents of the bridegroom or the bridegroom himself would pay a dowry to the bride or her parents. This is the betrothal period.

2). the bridegroom, accompanied by his male friends, went to the house of the bride at midnight, creating a torchlight parade through the streets. The bride would know in advance this was going to take place, and so she would be ready with her maidens, and they would all join the parade and end up at the bridegroom’s home.

3). The third phase was the marriage supper itself

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What John’s vision in Revelation pictures is the wedding feast of the Lamb (Jesus Christ) and His bride (the Church) in its third phase. The implication is that the first two phases have already taken place.

The first phase was completed on earth when each individual believer placed his or her faith in Christ as Savior. The dowry paid to the bridegroom’s parent (God the Father) would be the blood of Christ shed on the Bride’s behalf. The Church on earth today, then, is “betrothed” to Christ, and, like the wise virgins in the parable, all believers should be watching and waiting for the appearance of the Bridegroom (the rapture).

The second phase symbolizes the rapture of the Church, when Christ comes to claim His bride and take her to the Father’s house (heaven).

The marriage supper then follows as the third and final step, which takes place in heaven between the gathering of the church and the second coming (during the tribulation on earth).

The information above was garnered from "Gotquestions.com" which I completely agree with.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hello DivinWatermark,

The problem with your claim is that we already have scriptures that reveal the wedding of the Lamb taking place in heaven. Consider the following:

"Then He took the cup, gave thanks and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until the day when I drink it anew with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

"I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven." - Matt.8:11

"Hallelujah! For our Lord God, the Almighty, reigns.
Let us rejoice and celebrate and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.” - Rev.19:6-8

The above shows the wedding taking place in heaven. And following the wedding of the Lamb, the Lord's descent to the earth takes place, with His bride/church with Him:

"He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood,a and His name is The Word of God. The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses."

During the wedding of the Lamb, the bride/church receives her fine linen, white and pure. Then in verse 14 we see the armies i.e. the bride/church wearing her fine linen that she will have previously received at the wedding of the Lamb and will be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses.



The scripture is self explanatory. All your doing is confusing the issue with your claims of the aorist, plural, etc. because the meaning is very clear that the wedding takes place in heaven.

* The marriage of the Lamb as come
* His Bride/church has made herself ready
* The bride/church is given clothing of fine linen, white and pure
* The fine linen represents her righteous acts
* The Lord descends to the earth to end the age, with His bride following Him on white horses

In further support of this, we have Rev.17:14 which reveals the church returning with Christ out of heaven after the wedding:

"These (beast and ten kings) will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those with Him are called and chosen and faithful."

Did you read where I had said "the MARRIAGE" itself is IN HEAVEN (and has already taken place by the Rev19 point in time [that is, before His "return" to the earth]"?

I believe "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is completely distinct, and IS the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK (its inauguration).

That means, I believe Matt22:9-14nasb, Matt25:1-13nasb , Lk12:36-37,38,40 ['when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal], Rev19:9 [as wholly distinct from 19:7 the MARRIAGE ITSELF involving solely "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR; per 2Cor11:2]"], and the "G347 - [Matt8:11 and parallel, as you quote above], as well as Lk22:30,16,18/Matt19:28[/Matt25:31-34 for timing]/Matt26:29, and MANY "BLESSED" passages (such as Dan12:12, etc), PLUS all of "the kingdom of the heavens" passages (you also quoted one above) refer to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (and NOT to our Rapture ['IN THE AIR']).

At the time Jesus spoke the Olivet Discourse, when His disciples had asked Him about "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" Matt24:3 (which He had already spoken with them about in Matt13:30,39,40,49-50 ["the kingdom of the heavens [which is on the earth upon His 'RETURN' there]"), He had not yet spoken with them anything about "Rapture" (which was revealed and explained elsewhere, and is not covered in the Olivet Discourse anywhere, as that is not its CONTEXT).

So I believe that "the MARRIAGE" itself (involving solely "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" and will occur IN HEAVEN [one of the PURPOSES of OUR RAPTURE]) is to be distinguished from "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" which IS: 1) the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, 2) "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, upon His"RETURN" there]," 3) the MEAL, 4) the "shall sit down [G347]," 5) the time when He will "drink it NEW WITH [G3326 meta - accompanying*] YOU" and "[not] eat THEREOF UNTIL" (when the 12 will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel [earthly]).


[ * "G3326 with - meta - accompanying" is used of those who will enter the earthly MK "with [G3326 meta - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [the earthly MK]"; whereas "G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION'" is used of "the Church which is His body" and our Rapture and its purposes [when we will be UP THERE *WITH [G4862] Him" IN HEAVEN] ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

...so when I speak of the many "BLESSED" passages (referring to the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom), I am saying that Rev19:9 refers to the INVITATION that will be going out DURING the tribulation years (not presently), FOR/TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [the earthly MK]"; So where v.9 states "BLESSED are those [plural (as distinct from the now ALREADY-WED, SINGULAR "BRIDE/WIFE" of v.7, having already taken place IN HEAVEN)] having been INVITED to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER of the Lamb," I believe this is referring specifically to the particular "invitation" that the "guests [PLURAL]" will be receiving/hearing DURING the trib years (i.e. Matt22:9-14; where vv.7-8 supplied a specific SEQUENCE that matches Rev1:1's "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [7-yrs, not 2000] and its "FUTURE" orientation [1:1 = 7:3 and 4:1 (which is chpts 4-19's "future" things)]).

 

[Ahwatukee]

Did you read where I had said "the MARRIAGE" itself is IN HEAVEN (and has already taken place by the Rev19 point in time [that is, before His "return" to the earth]"?

I believe "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is completely distinct, and IS the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK (its inauguration).

That is what I am telling you! According to scripture, the wedding of the Lamb takes place in conjunction with the wedding feast there in heaven and not after we return to the earth. Did you not read where Jesus said that "He will not drink of the fruit of the vine again until He drinks it anew with us in His Father's kingdom? And, when Jesus said, "many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. The wedding feast is in the kingdom of heaven, which is not on this earth. Some try to circumvent God's word by saying "the kingdom of heaven on earth" which is a contradiction in terms. the The order is, the gathering of the church, the wedding of the Lamb, which includes the wedding feast, which is followed by the second coming.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That is what I am telling you! According to scripture, the wedding of the Lamb takes place in conjunction with the wedding feast there in heaven and not after we return to the earth. Did you not read where Jesus said that "He will not drink of the fruit of the vine again until He drinks it anew with us in His Father's kingdom? And, when Jesus said, "many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. The wedding feast is in the kingdom of heaven, which is not on this earth. Some try to circumvent God's word by saying "the kingdom of heaven on earth" which is a contradiction in terms. the The order is, the gathering of the church, the wedding of the Lamb, which includes the wedding feast, which is followed by the second coming.

But what I'm saying is, that every time the phrase "the kingdom of the heavens" was used, it refers to the promised and prophesied earthly kingdom with Christ's personal presence (on the earth). It is not referring to "up IN heaven," but instead, like in Matthew 13, what will take place when the "angels shall REAP" and "gather OUT... all things that offend" (this passage, especially verse 30 which I drew att'n to, "[ye angels] Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles TO BURN them" is in the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE to that of our Rapture ["the Departure FIRST"/ONE THING *FIRST*/our Rapture *FIRST* before The Day of the Lord can "BE PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth/the trib, which is not here--->] and then shall "the righteous" [see Matt25:46] shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" passages occur at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (not at the time of our Rapture), and refer to them not entering the promised and prophesied earthly MK, but away to [eternal] punishment, which sentence will be fully carried out at the GWTj 1000 yrs later. [Rev19:19/16:14-16/Isa24:21-23, etc]


The verses you are supplying in the above quote, I believe refer to the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom ("the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" where "GUESTS [plural]" will be present [yes, "the righteous" having come thru the trib, also, having come to faith WITHIN the trib])

 

[Noose]

I dont know? What is your explanation? Why did Paul count himself among those that will be alive when Jesus comes? My explanation is Paul thought Jesus would return during his lifetime.
What is yours? PLease answer, im intrigued

Paul was under the inspiration of the Holy spirit, so saying that he thought Jesus would come in his life time is just wrong; it is like saying the Holy spirit thought.... Paul knew very well what he was talking about, a few chapters before that, Paul told Corinthians the opposite of that:

2 Cor 4:
10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

Paul here is counting himself amongst the dead who will be raised and be caught up together with his listeners at corinth who will be alive.

It is not Paul who thought..., it is the understanding of many that fails and the result is the popular but wrong theology around resurrection/Rapture/Christ/end times/eschatology. The resurrection is not what many think it is, it is not a mass event at some day in the future, resurrection is now and is continuous - this is what Paul taught.

From the verses below, i know that Paul is talking about some continuous process as opposed to a future event because he carefully chooses the tense; he doesn't use future tense but continuous tense:

1 Cor 15:
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. .....

29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?31I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,


Add the mysterious passage in verses 29-32 that nobody who believes in the popular false doctrines about resurrection would never have an answer to.
My take has always been, resurrection of saints is now and continuous until the end of age. The end of age is also called the day of the Lord or the coming of the Christ, but actually Christ is coming every day. There's not rapture at all, the souls of saints are resurrected immediately and indwell the hearts of living believers on earth. The living believers at the very end shall be shelved from death and it is they that their bodies will be turned into spiritual bodies in a twinkle of an eye.

 

[garee]

Paul was under the inspiration of the Holy spirit, so saying that he thought Jesus would come in his life time is just wrong; it is like saying the Holy spirit thought.... Paul knew very well what he was talking about, a few chapters before that, Paul told Corinthians the opposite of that:

2 Cor 4:
10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

Paul here is counting himself amongst the dead who will be raised and be caught up together with his listeners at corinth who will be alive.

It is not Paul who thought..., it is the understanding of many that fails and the result is the popular but wrong theology around resurrection/Rapture/Christ/end times/eschatology. The resurrection is not what many think it is, it is not a mass event at some day in the future, resurrection is now and is continuous - this is what Paul taught.

From the verses below, i know that Paul is talking about some continuous process as opposed to a future event because he carefully chooses the tense; he doesn't use future tense but continuous tense:

1 Cor 15:
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. .....

29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?31I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,


Add the mysterious passage in verses 29-32 that nobody who believes in the popular false doctrines about resurrection would never have an answer to.
My take has always been, resurrection of saints is now and continuous until the end of age. The end of age is also called the day of the Lord or the coming of the Christ, but actually Christ is coming every day. There's not rapture at all, the souls of saints are resurrected immediately and indwell the hearts of living believers on earth. The living believers at the very end shall be shelved from death and it is they that their bodies will be turned into spiritual bodies in a twinkle of an eye.

I would offer. I would agree according to the old testament prophecy; I will open up the graves and bring you into the promised land, the heavenly city prepared as the bride of Christ the church . It is one continuous resurrection until the end of age. To be absent from the body is to be present in the heavenly city where we do have our citizenship. Along with the end of age which as you said, it is also called the day of the Lord or the last day . On the last day the saints on earth will rise and meet the saints who have fallen asleep and together in the twinkling of the eye receive their promised new incorruptible bodies.in the same twinkling of the eye the first death is tossed into the lake of fire the second and final death.Those who knew not Christ will not rise on the last day and receive a new body.


I would think the heart of the matter is not Eschatology. Eschatology is not the fundamental difference between Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism, but eschatology is simply an effect of the fundamental difference. The fundamental difference is actually seen in the difference between Israel and the church. Not all Israel are born again believers called by the new name God named his chase virgin bride the church, Christian.


Jewish flesh is not part of the equation of new creatures. The reformation had come over two thousand years ago. The unbelieving Jew (no faith) along with the unbelieving Gentiles that denies the veil Is rent are identified as antichrists. Natural unconverted men who serve the god of this world the spirit of lies as the things of men as that which is seen, the temporal. (no faith)

 

[Hevosmies]

Paul was under the inspiration of the Holy spirit, so saying that he thought Jesus would come in his life time is just wrong; it is like saying the Holy spirit thought.... Paul knew very well what he was talking about, a few chapters before that, Paul told Corinthians the opposite of that:

2 Cor 4:
10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

Paul here is counting himself amongst the dead who will be raised and be caught up together with his listeners at corinth who will be alive.

It is not Paul who thought..., it is the understanding of many that fails and the result is the popular but wrong theology around resurrection/Rapture/Christ/end times/eschatology. The resurrection is not what many think it is, it is not a mass event at some day in the future, resurrection is now and is continuous - this is what Paul taught.

From the verses below, i know that Paul is talking about some continuous process as opposed to a future event because he carefully chooses the tense; he doesn't use future tense but continuous tense:

1 Cor 15:
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. .....

29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?31I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,


Add the mysterious passage in verses 29-32 that nobody who believes in the popular false doctrines about resurrection would never have an answer to.
My take has always been, resurrection of saints is now and continuous until the end of age. The end of age is also called the day of the Lord or the coming of the Christ, but actually Christ is coming every day. There's not rapture at all, the souls of saints are resurrected immediately and indwell the hearts of living believers on earth. The living believers at the very end shall be shelved from death and it is they that their bodies will be turned into spiritual bodies in a twinkle of an eye.

False doctrine. Resurrection has not past.
Rapture has not happened.

Next.

 

[Noose]

False doctrine. Resurrection has not past.
Rapture has not happened.

Next.

I never said resurrection has passed, i said resurrection of saints is continuous - that's what Paul taught.
Rapture is never going to happen- good luck with that

Isa 26:
19But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

 

[garee]

False doctrine. Resurrection has not past.
Rapture has not happened.

Next.

The first is and continues up until the last day.

The binding of Satan occurred at the cross, and since we are now more than 1900 years after the cross, and since the thousand years spoken of there will end as Judgment Day itself we know that it has to be understood symbolically. If we were still in the year 999 AD, for instance we still would not know whether it was symbolical or literal. But because many years have passed we know that it has to be understood in a symbolical fashion. And so the thousand years is the whole New Testament period, the last time ending on the last day, the day of the Lord

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I never said resurrection has passed, i said resurrection of saints is continuous - that's what Paul taught.
Rapture is never going to happen- good luck with that

Isa 26:
19But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

As a pre-trib Rapture person (and I believe I've mentioned this to you before), I do not believe this passage is a RAPTURE passage, but refers to Israel (the "My people" of verse 20, in ISRAEL's FUTURE [Rom9:26/Hos1:10, distinct from Rom9:25/Hos2:23b about "the Gentiles"]) DURING the future tribulation period, same as Hosea 5:15-6:3 (re: Israel's future) and Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 [note Ezek39:7 "My people Israel" for WHEN] (re: Israel's future [not presently]) and Daniel 12:1-4 (re: Israel's future; and distinct from the bodily/physical resurrection of Dan12:13) and Romans 11:15[25] (re: Israel's future), and other such passages regarding them, which is LIKENED UNTO a resurrection (but ABOUT "Israel"). During the trib, is when this happens. The RAPTURE has not been slated FOR THEM.

 

[Noose]

As a pre-trib Rapture person (and I believe I've mentioned this to you before), I do not believe this passage is a RAPTURE passage, but refers to Israel (the "My people" of verse 20, in ISRAEL's FUTURE [Rom9:26/Hos1:10, distinct from Rom9:25/Hos2:23b about "the Gentiles"]) DURING the future tribulation period, same as Hosea 5:15-6:3 (re: Israel's future) and Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 [note Ezek39:7 "My people Israel" for WHEN] (re: Israel's future [not presently]) and Daniel 12:1-4 (re: Israel's future; and distinct from the bodily/physical resurrection of Dan12:13) and Romans 11:15[25] (re: Israel's future), and other such passages regarding them, which is LIKENED UNTO a resurrection (but ABOUT "Israel").

Ok, here is a rapture passage:

John 17: 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

Jesus Christ, 33AD

Do you think you know more than Jesus?!

 

[Hevosmies]

The first is and continues up until the last day.

The binding of Satan occurred at the cross, and since we are now more than 1900 years after the cross, and since the thousand years spoken of there will end as Judgment Day itself we know that it has to be understood symbolically. If we were still in the year 999 AD, for instance we still would not know whether it was symbolical or literal. But because many years have passed we know that it has to be understood in a symbolical fashion. And so the thousand years is the whole New Testament period, the last time ending on the last day, the day of the Lord

It does not HAVE to be understood symbolically because we are in 2000. The problem is you are ASSUMING that satan was bound during the first coming of Jesus. It is clear as day that the devil is NOT NOT NOT bound right now, I dare anyone to prove from the SCRIPTURES that satan is bound NOW

This is the current situation: The devil is roaming around seeking whom he may devour, the god of this world BLINDING the minds of the unbelievers, deceiving the nations, woe to the earth and its inhabitants for satan is thrown down!

Then iN Revelation 20 this is teh situation: Satan is BOUND for a millennium.

Its very simple.

 

[Absolutely]

Well first, John says they were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and because they did not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. Then John says "they lived" and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Then regarding them, it says that this is the first resurrection. Therefore, it is clear that when it says "they were beheaded" and then "they lived" that they were resurrected. Therefore, it is not

Well first, John says they were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and because they did not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. Then John says "they lived" and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Then regarding them, it says that this is the first resurrection. Therefore, it is clear that when it says "they were beheaded" and then "they lived" that they were resurrected. Therefore, it is not a poor translation, because the context demonstrates that they were dead and then resurrected. Below is the scripture:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those having been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who did not worship the beast, nor his image, and did not take the mark upon the forehead, and upon their hand. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

* Beheaded
* They lived (This is the first resurrection)

It's just a matter of looking at the entire context and not just focusing in on one word.

a poor translation, because the context demonstrates that they were dead and then resurrected. Below is the scripture:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those having been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who did not worship the beast, nor his image, and did not take the mark upon the forehead, and upon their hand. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

* Beheaded
* They lived (This is the first resurrection)

It's just a matter of looking at the entire context and not just focusing in on one word.

We agree they were beheaded and resurrected.
They were not resurrected after the gt.
Nothing says that.
The bad translation" came to life" implies that.
It DOES NOT SAY THAT.
It says "lived and reigned"
Those raptured alive " live and reign"
"Live and reign" " beheaded" " on thrones" is what John saw.
" came to life" doesn't even fit.
Of course they came to life. They are resurrected saints.
It makes sense that they are chosen from the innumerable number who all were killed in the gt early on.
Jonh saw them having already been appointed thrones, which to me means they had been there with Jesus for a while....not immediately risen and whisked into thrones.
You could be right.
I just don't see it. Especially when i was never exposed to " came to life" bad translation,which is kinda necessary to make the post trib resurrection narrative.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Ok, here is a rapture passage:

John 17: 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

Jesus Christ, 33AD

Do you think you know more than Jesus?!

You're tending to read mere snippets and neglecting to notice the wider CONTEXT, which IN THIS passage (specifically, say, vv.6-19, which I've pointed out somewhere in another thread), which says things like:

--"I have manifested Thy name unto the men [the specific people of that day/era/time-frame; i.e. His disciples] which Thou hast given Me out of the world... and they have kept Thy word."

--"Now they have known..."

--"For I have given them the words which Thou gavest Me; and they have received them..."

--"I pray for them... them which Thou hast given Me..."

--"While I was with them in the world..." ("And now come I to Thee...")

--"I have given them Thy word..."

--"I pray not that Thou shouldest take THEM out of the world..."

...and then it says in v.20,

--"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word" [thus far, it was past ppl/disciples--the ones present with Him at that time]

[recall what I'd said about how the 144,000 come to faith within the future trib, and these, as "servants," have a specific msg to "preach in all the world, for a witness unto all the nations" DURING the trib [Matt24:14/26:13, and some of the results are seen in Rev7:9,14, and Matt25:31-34[40], and Rev19:9/Matt22:9-14 ("INVITATION" FOR the earthly MK [DISTINCT from the 19:7 "MARRIAGE" itself])]