Is baptism required for salvation?

preston39 · Sep 24, 2018

[QUOTE="The7thdayrest, post: 3717862, member: 275271...... is baptism necessary in order to be saved, no its not.. but Jesus put forth an example for those that are willing to follow can or may also be baptized, its a free choice is it not?[/QUOTE]
T....
You are wrong...KJV 1611 edition;

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Roman 6;3.... Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Mark16;16.... He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Many others

Baptism is required.

Jackson123 · Sep 24, 2018

The7thdayrest said:

All man are sin and lack of the glory of God. Jesus is the only man without sin. Jesus do not need forgiven but we need. This is the different between us and Jesus. Jesus Being baptized yet He never sin. It tell me that baptism is not to atone for sin. I believe baptism is only symbolism that we are die and rise AS new creation. If baptism not do in serious manner, It mean Nothing. The ritual baptism not save you.

JerseyChristian98 · Sep 25, 2018

No, it is not.

fredoheaven · Sep 25, 2018

preston39 said:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Saved= regeneration.

The7thdayrest · Sep 25, 2018

Jackson123 said:

i did not say that Baptism saves you.. but i do believe that it shows the world and Shows God your commitment of Faith. does it brings you closer Jesus, yes it does... does it actually bring the saving for to go to heaven, no it does not because that is of only God to decide a genuine being. but i do believe it has allot to do with a Saving yourself from sin.

The7thdayrest · Sep 25, 2018

preston39 said:

T....
You are wrong...KJV 1611 edition;

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Roman 6;3.... Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Mark16;16.... He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Many others

Baptism is required.[/QUOTE]
thank you for correcting me and many others... so my first thoughts were right. we have to baptized in order to be saved. unlike many said that baptism does not save, i was wrong with saying the opposite. and i am being humble saying this ... ty

preston39 · Sep 25, 2018

The7thdayrest said:

thank you for correcting me and many others... so my first thoughts were right. we have to baptized in order to be saved. unlike many said that baptism does not save, i was wrong with saying the opposite. and i am being humble saying this ... ty[/QUOTE]

t...,
Baptism is part and partial of the process of repentance. Baptism without repentance of sins would be out of order and invalid.
In this era 2018....verify all biblical teachings with scripture.
There are great deceptions out there...we see them here on this forum....don't be miss led by them.

Jackson123 · Sep 25, 2018

The7thdayrest said:

Show your commitment to the world, Yes

Show your commitment to God, I doubt. God know your hearth.

Saving from sin, I doubt. My friend was gambler, his sister friend told his mom If he willing to be baptized, It Will change him. His mom ask him to be baptized, he did, but not change his habit at all

preston39 · Sep 25, 2018

fredoheaven said:

f...,
That refers to ...making salvation available for us...and after G-d passed judgement of our righteous life.

iamsoandso · Sep 25, 2018

JerseyChristian98 said:

Asking as simply as I can(I mean no offense) if Jesus had not washed us of our sins could we be saved? Not that I mean should a man wash his own self or have another do it for him but the blood of Jesus washing them away is it necessary to be saved? That would then mean that anyone who washed their own selves or had another do this would first have to not believe that Jesus blood had washed them clean and so they do the things they believe were not done.

mailmandan · Sep 26, 2018

preston39 said:

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

In John 3:5, Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that? If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

*In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. Water baptism is the picture or symbol of the new birth, but not the means of securing it.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. In Acts 22:16, how did baptism "wash away" Paul's sins? Well, it couldn't do this literally, for Christ literally "put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Hebrews 9:26). The language in Acts 22:16 is similar to the statement of Christ when He took the bread and said, "This is my body" (Matthew 26:26). The bread was only the emblem of His body. Baptism is the emblem of the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. Every time a believer is immersed he washes away his sins in the same SENSE Paul did: not literally, but ceremonially, pointing to the death of Christ by which sins were actually washed away.

Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).

In Acts 10:43, receiving remission of sins is connected with "believes in Him" and not with baptism (Acts 10:43-47). *Hermeneutics. In Acts 9, Jesus told Ananias that Paul "is a chosen vessel unto Me" (v. 15), although the apostle had not yet been baptized. Before Paul was baptized, Christ had already commissioned him to "bear His name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15); such a commission is not God’s portion for one still lost and under wrath. Before Paul’s baptism, Christ had set him aside as one who would "suffer for His name’s sake" (Acts 9:16). Can one who is a child of the devil, as all the lost are (Ephesians 2:1-3, John 8:44), really suffer for Christ’s sake? NO. So, Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was water baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism. *No Scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of Scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.

mailmandan · Sep 26, 2018

preston39 said:

We are Spirit baptized (not water baptized) "into the body of Christ" - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.. (1 Corinthians 12:13). In what sense are we water baptized into Christ? In the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" (1 Corinthians 10:2). We are not literally water baptized into the body of Christ, just as the Israelites were not literally water baptized into the body of Moses, but in a metaphorical sense in regards to identification.

Spirit baptism is the reality and water baptism is the picture of the reality. Notice in Galatians 3:27, that those who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Now for the word "enduo" (put on). This word also appears in Romans 13:14 where we read, "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill it’s lusts." This exhortation is not to a sinner, telling him to be baptized to "put on" Christ, but it is written to Christians. Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if we must "put on" Christ to be saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also “put on” Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Romans 13:14). Right? Let’s be consistent.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Not many others.

Baptism is not absolutely required for salvation, but belief/faith is (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Angela53510 · Sep 26, 2018

preston39 said:

t...
Baptism is part and partial of the process of repentance. Baptism without repentance of sins would be out of order and invalid.
In this era 2018....verify all biblical teachings with scripture.
There are great deceptions out there...we see them here on this forum....don't be miss led by them.[/QUOTE]

First, look up all these verses yourself, in a modern version. Who knows what half of those words mean? And the KJ translation has a lot of errors, especially in Greek based text. I know, I have taken a lot of courses in Greek, and I have all the Greek tools.- lexicons, linguistic aids, etc. We did comparisons of the various translations in class, and all of them have issues. My prof has been on the translation committees of many modern versions. He had a lot of insight as to word choices, and manuscript issues.

The manuscripts that the KJV used were all from the 15th century, and very corrupt. And only 7 copies. Today, we have almost 6000 manuscripts, including very early ones from the 2nd and 3rd centuries. The Byzantine texts do not go back to the early days of the church. They just start in the 4th century AD, already with errors. Then, the copyists made mistakes, and the people that copied those manuscripts, made further mistakes and copies the earlier texts. Until the 15th century manscripts, which had many copyist errors and issues.

To say nothing of the fact that the KJV committee relied on the translation of Erasmus, a Catholic priest. And he knew a lot of what he translated was wrong. He even fought the Imprimater in Rome, and said there were spurious verses, that never existed before the 15th century, and Rome made him put it in. He needed the money from the publication of his Bible. And he was in a hurry. Some books were back translated from Jerome's Latin version, which is a terrible translation, full of errors, because Jerome had poor Greek and Hebrew. So, he just had it published with all the mistakes.

Further, context means read the verses around these ones. Compare translations. Figure out what it is really saying. Dan has done a good job of that, in one of the posts above.

Never base a doctrine on something from the internet. Actually read your Bible, a modern version, to find the truth.

For the record, as a Baptist, I believer in adult, believer's immersion as a sign of committment. I wasn't baptised till I had been saved 2 years, because the church I was attending didn't have a baptismal tank. When I moved, the church had one, and I got baptised. I had wanted to get baptised from the day I was saved. Not because it could save me anymore than the blood of Christ, but to show my love of God, and commit publicly to following him, which I always have.

Are you telling me for 2 years, reading my Bible, praying, attending church, witnessing, and hearing God speak through his Word, I wasn't saved? NOT! I know the exact moment God saved me, and it was in the front seat of a Blazer, when my future husband told me the gospel, and that I needed to repent of my sin. That is when God spoke to me and told me to serve him. And I have, for 38 wonderful years! Salvation is from God, not washing in water. As many have said!

plaintalk · Sep 26, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Jesus said, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." (Mark 16:16) That does not sound like a work of righteousness to me. Please read Matthew 3: 15 again. God commanded a washing with water before consecration to Him. (Ex. 29: 4) By being baptized He was fulfilling that commandment. Surely if the Lord of heaven and earth would submit to baptism in water, we should also. (Matt. 28: 18-20) Baptism in water is a work of faith. Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch (Acts 8: 35); as they went along, the eunuch said, "look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." Baptism is a work of faith! In a work of righteousness, faith is in yourself. (Luke 18; 9)

Abraham offered up Isaac by faith, when he was tested. (Heb. 11: 17)
The angel of the lord said, ”For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” (Gen. 22: 12) His faith was perfected.
“And in your seed all the nation of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” (Gen. 22: 18)

“Was not Abraham our father, justified by works, when he offered up his son upon the altar? (James 2: 21) Obviously these are not the works mentioned by Paul in Romans 4: 2; the offering up Isaac was a work of faith; the work in Romans 4: 2 was a work of the law, however the law is not of faith. (Gal. 3: 12) A man is not justified by works of the law. (Gal. 2: 16)

“You see that faith was working with his works (of faith), and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.” James 2: 22) Abraham was justified by a “perfected” faith which included obedience. (Gen. 22: 18)

“and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,’ and he was called the friend of God.” (James 2: 23)
“You see a man is justified by works (of faith), and not by faith alone.” (James 2: 24)

There are two kinds of works; works of the law and works of righteousness (Titus 3: 5) do not justify or save; works of faith and the obedience of faith do save and justify. (1 Thess. 1: 3; Rom. 1: 5)

Works of faith that save:
Calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 2: 21)
Confessing His name before men. (Rom. 10: 10)
Repentance (2 Cor. 7: 10)
Baptism in the name of Christ (Mark 16: 16; 1 Peter 3: 21)
Obedience of faith (Heb. 5: 9)
Washing of regeneration (Titus 3: 5)
God bless.

notuptome · Sep 26, 2018

plaintalk said:

Jesus said, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." (Mark 16:16) That does not sound like a work of righteousness to me. Please read Matthew 3: 15 again. God commanded a washing with water before consecration to Him. (Ex. 29: 4) By being baptized He was fulfilling that commandment. Surely if the Lord of heaven and earth would submit to baptism in water, we should also. (Matt. 28: 18-20) Baptism in water is a work of faith. Philip preached Jesus to the eunuch (Acts 8: 35); as they went along, the eunuch said, "look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." Baptism is a work of faith! In a work of righteousness, faith is in yourself. (Luke 18; 9)

Abraham offered up Isaac by faith, when he was tested. (Heb. 11: 17)
The angel of the lord said, ”For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” (Gen. 22: 12) His faith was perfected.
“And in your seed all the nation of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” (Gen. 22: 18)

“Was not Abraham our father, justified by works, when he offered up his son upon the altar? (James 2: 21) Obviously these are not the works mentioned by Paul in Romans 4: 2; the offering up Isaac was a work of faith; the work in Romans 4: 2 was a work of the law, however the law is not of faith. (Gal. 3: 12) A man is not justified by works of the law. (Gal. 2: 16)

“You see that faith was working with his works (of faith), and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.” James 2: 22) Abraham was justified by a “perfected” faith which included obedience. (Gen. 22: 18)

“and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,’ and he was called the friend of God.” (James 2: 23)
“You see a man is justified by works (of faith), and not by faith alone.” (James 2: 24)

There are two kinds of works; works of the law and works of righteousness (Titus 3: 5) do not justify or save; works of faith and the obedience of faith do save and justify. (1 Thess. 1: 3; Rom. 1: 5)

Works of faith that save:
Calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 2: 21)
Confessing His name before men. (Rom. 10: 10)
Repentance (2 Cor. 7: 10)
Baptism in the name of Christ (Mark 16: 16; 1 Peter 3: 21)
Obedience of faith (Heb. 5: 9)
Washing of regeneration (Titus 3: 5)
God bless.

Yet scripture says we are saved by grace not works lest any should boast. Eph 2:8-9 lest we forget.

The only baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and only God can administer that baptism. Men baptize with water and that cannot save.

One must discern between Holy Spirit and water when one reads baptism. Context and Greek construction are useful in this endeavor. Of the Holy Spirit only makes these things plain to those who are known of the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

fredoheaven · Sep 26, 2018

Angela53510 said:

First, look up all these verses yourself, in a modern version. Who knows what half of those words mean? And the KJ translation has a lot of errors, especially in Greek based text. I know, I have taken a lot of courses in Greek, and I have all the Greek tools.- lexicons, linguistic aids, etc. We did comparisons of the various translations in class, and all of them have issues. My prof has been on the translation committees of many modern versions. He had a lot of insight as to word choices, and manuscript issues.

The manuscripts that the KJV used were all from the 15th century, and very corrupt. And only 7 copies. Today, we have almost 6000 manuscripts, including very early ones from the 2nd and 3rd centuries. The Byzantine texts do not go back to the early days of the church. They just start in the 4th century AD, already with errors. Then, the copyists made mistakes, and the people that copied those manuscripts, made further mistakes and copies the earlier texts. Until the 15th century manscripts, which had many copyist errors and issues.

To say nothing of the fact that the KJV committee relied on the translation of Erasmus, a Catholic priest. And he knew a lot of what he translated was wrong. He even fought the Imprimater in Rome, and said there were spurious verses, that never existed before the 15th century, and Rome made him put it in. He needed the money from the publication of his Bible. And he was in a hurry. Some books were back translated from Jerome's Latin version, which is a terrible translation, full of errors, because Jerome had poor Greek and Hebrew. So, he just had it published with all the mistakes.

Further, context means read the verses around these ones. Compare translations. Figure out what it is really saying. Dan has done a good job of that, in one of the posts above.

Never base a doctrine on something from the internet. Actually read your Bible, a modern version, to find the truth.

For the record, as a Baptist, I believer in adult, believer's immersion as a sign of committment. I wasn't baptised till I had been saved 2 years, because the church I was attending didn't have a baptismal tank. When I moved, the church had one, and I got baptised. I had wanted to get baptised from the day I was saved. Not because it could save me anymore than the blood of Christ, but to show my love of God, and commit publicly to following him, which I always have.

Are you telling me for 2 years, reading my Bible, praying, attending church, witnessing, and hearing God speak through his Word, I wasn't saved? NOT! I know the exact moment God saved me, and it was in the front seat of a Blazer, when my future husband told me the gospel, and that I needed to repent of my sin. That is when God spoke to me and told me to serve him. And I have, for 38 wonderful years! Salvation is from God, not washing in water. As many have said![/QUOTE]
I think there is no need to criticize kjv here. Just present your views about baptism and thats all well. The scripture is never been obsolte, its truth is unchanging, is quick and powerful.
God bless.

preston39 · Sep 26, 2018

mailmandan said:

We are Spirit baptized (not water baptized) "into the body of Christ" - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.. (1 Corinthians 12:13). In what sense are we water baptized into Christ? In the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" (1 Corinthians 10:2). We are not literally water baptized into the body of Christ, just as the Israelites were not literally water baptized into the body of Moses, but in a metaphorical sense in regards to identification.

Spirit baptism is the reality and water baptism is the picture of the reality. Notice in Galatians 3:27, that those who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Now for the word "enduo" (put on). This word also appears in Romans 13:14 where we read, "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill it’s lusts." This exhortation is not to a sinner, telling him to be baptized to "put on" Christ, but it is written to Christians. Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if we must "put on" Christ to be saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also “put on” Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Romans 13:14). Right? Let’s be consistent.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Not many others.

Baptism is not absolutely required for salvation, but belief/faith is (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

we are water baptized so we can be cleansed for spirit baptism. They go together.

plaintalk · Sep 26, 2018

notuptome said:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Eph. 2: 8- 10)
The opening statement, “Yet scripture says we are saved by grace not works lest any should boast. Eph 2:8-9 lest we forget,” gives the impression that grace is in opposition to works, at least in regards to salvation.
In my opinion, in Paul’s writing, grace is in opposition to law not works (undefined); according to Paul we are created in Christ for good works so there will be a close relationship between grace and good works.
But we are not saved by grace alone, we are saved by grace through faith, no explanation, except to say it is not of ourselves, don’t boast. Then it seems he places faith in opposition to works (undefined). But even then we know from reading Hebrews 11, that faith works; and Paul tells us that faith works through love and faith without love is nothing. And of course James tells us that faith without works is dead and useless. Today, many tell us that we are saved by faith alone, which to me is tantamount to saying that we are saved by a dead and useless faith. A more accurate statement would be, “Salvation is by a perfected faith.”

Does the scripture speak of works of faith, of obedience of faith? Is Christ the source of eternal salvation to those that obey him? Was Abraham justified by works of faith? Are there works that save?
Please give a scriptural reference for the statement that the only baptism which saves is the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
God bless.

plaintalk · Sep 28, 2018

mailmandan said:

Post # 212
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

4 Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. (Mark 16: 14- 16)

Response:
(1) Jesus commanded His disciples to go and preach the gospel to all creation. The “gospel” is the good news that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and arose from the dead on the third day. (1 Cor. 15: 1-4). Jesus makes a connection between the “gospel” and baptism in the name of Christ in water because when we are baptized we are baptized into His death, then we are buried with Him through baptism into death so that we might arise with Him in the likeness of His resurrection. (Rom. 6: 3-6)
(2) Jesus said, “ who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.” Jesus said those who believe the gospel and have been baptized shall be saved. Why? Because they have obeyed the gospel through baptism. (2 Thess. 1: 8) You see we must not only believe to be saved but we must also obey. (Heb. 5: 9) Jesus’ statement is an emphatic, positive statement, not a suggestion, not a preference.
(3) Jesus did also say those that don’t believe are condemned already. There is no need to say “those who disbelieve and are not baptized will be condemned” because if we don’t believe, we will not and cannot be baptized.
(4) Jesus did not say that we are saved by only believing; in Matthew 7: 21 He said that we must do the will of the Father, to claim Him as Lord without obedience is not enough.
(5) The post makes the claim that NOWHERE does the Bible state that those who are not baptized will be condemned. This is not accurate in my opinion because 2 Thessalonians 1: 8, 9 definitely states that those who do obey the gospel await eternal destruction. If you are not baptized have you disobeyed the gospel?
(6) The post suggest that one can be saved without being baptized but knowing God means that you keep His commandments. John tells us that those who claim to know God without keeping His commandments are liars. (1 John 2: 3, 4)
(7) In John 12: 42, 43 we have many Jews who believed Jesus but would not confess Him before men. Their failure to obey received God’s disapproval and was attributed to a love for the approval of men rather than God’s approval. Jesus said if you love Me you will keep my commandments
(8) In John 2: 23, 24 many believed but Jesus did not trust them. Yes, we are saved by faith, but it is a faith perfected by love and obedience. (James 2: 22)
(9) James 2: 24 tells us a man is justified by works (of faith), and not by faith alone.
(10) In Genesis 22: 12, 18 we find that Abraham authenticated his faith through obedience in offering Isaac.
(11) In James 2: 22-24 we find that Abraham perfected his faith when he offered up Isaac. He was justified by a perfected faith.
(12) Faith without works of faith is dead and useless. (James 2: 17, 20)
(13) Faith without love is nothing. (1 Cor. 13: 2)
(14) Jesus becomes the source of eternal salvation when those that believe respond in love and obedience. (Heb. 5: 9)
(15) In the first century those that received the word were baptized and added to those being saved. (Acts 2: 41, 47)
(15) By the same token we are forgiven and saved by faith when are faith is perfected by love and obedience in repentance and baptism in the name of Christ, calling on the name of the Lord and confessing his name before men.
God bless.

eternally-gratefull · Sep 28, 2018

Mark 16..

1. Questionable passage, is it even scripture? Jesus did not say “be baptised) in any other passage, In the book of John, chapter after chapter jesus said whoever believes has life. Whoever believes is born again, Whoever believes is saved. Not once did he mention baptism. So why did he in mark? Maing a doctrine based on this one verse is not a smart idea
2. Be baptised. If mark 16 is real. COuld he have met who ever believed and is BAPTISED *by God) has life? Why do we have to assume it automatically means water?

Either way, Mark 16 can not contradict john, Jesus did not contradict himself.. You have one of the two choices above, There is no oh=ther choice. Other than to have Jesus contradict himself.

Is baptism required for salvation?

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