Is eternal torment in hell fire Biblical

[garee]

I understand that your concern is that the scripture makes it appear that when the Lord is revealed from heaven in blazing fire, that at that time He gives us relief which would infer that we will be on the earth when He returns so that we can receive His rest and be avenged. However, and without going over every detail, I would draw your attention to what I have highlighted in red when Paul says "and to us as well." So the question is, how could the Lord give rest to Paul and those with him who have already died, since the Lord has yet to be revealed from heaven in blazing fire with His holy angels? Therefore, he must have another meaning in mind or he may be generalizing. Just something to consider

The blazing fire (lake of fire) will come on the last day the same day as in Revelation chapter 11 when the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdom of God in the new heavens and earth . Judgement day for the unbeliever (goats)as they are cast into the lake of fire and another judgment salvation(sheep) to those who had the Spirit of Christ in them on earth and those who are asleep that died previous to the last day. Not all or both will sleep but both will be changed simultaneously The second a final resurrection

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 King James Version (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

There will not be a mixture of corruptible bodies (dead) and incorruptible bodies walking around at the same time. Sounds more like Hollywood today .

 

[garee]

Oy vey! This is spiritualizing on another level. I've never seen or heard anything like it. You would put Origen to shame. I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

I think you meant rather than spiritualizing, rightly dividing the word of God. Its called comparing the spiritual unseen understanding to the same or we could say faith to faith. The eternal to the eternal. and not the literal as that seen the temporal to that seen the temporal .(2 Corintians4:18) we look not to the things see but rather to the spiritual unseen.

It is how we find the understanding in parable seeing without parables Christ spoke not.

But lets try to adress this on a level that fishermen can understand, ok? As believers we do enter His rest, yes, BUT not now, in fact we are now in a fight for our lives, we are told in this world you will have tribulation. Currently christians have tribulation, anguish, anxiety and stress, certainly there is the joy of the Lord, but you cannot take a Scripture that is talking about the Sabbath rest of the earth (imo) the millennium and apply to it to now.

According to Hebrew 4 every time we hear his voice working within us and do "mix it with faith" as another way of saying believe God not seen, and do not harden our hearts we have entered His rest from our own works. It is God who does works in us to make our hearts soft.

Another thing you said was that hell is living breathing suffering, are you aware that hell is not a present reality to those who are alive? If you are on this planet breathing currently, you're not in hell.

Hell is shown as a living suffering or living sacrifice. Dead sacrifices show life was given. There are two examples of living suffering, crying out to a living God and are shown that God delivered them alive. This is with both Jonas and the Son of man, Jesus . (God cannot die)People that are dead and buried cannot cry out. They cannot even breath . When their temporal corruptible spirit dies and returns to the father and their lifeless spiritless flesh returns to the dust they will never rise to new spirit life as with the believers who have received a new spirit that will never die. They are dead for ever more

Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV)2 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

jesus suufering unto death Not dead was heard when he cried out tke this cup of suffering the father sent messengers to strengthen him and delivered him the same way as Jonas a living hell.

The beginning of the three days of suffering hell below.

Matthew 26:38Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

You will be if you die in a lost state. However thats LATER ON not NOW. If hell truly was here now in the present, it seems christians are in it and not the unsaved. Christians are the ones who have been persecuted for their faith for centuries.

Yes they partake in Colossians 1:24. the living suffering(hell). The unbeliever like that of Cain, a restless wanderer receives no sabbath rest, their hearts remain hard all the days of their life. (no relief)

God is a God of mercy, he is not merciless. Two kinds of mercy. One in respect to the elect giving them eternal life and the other their living hell without any rest ends the day their corrupted temporal spirits departs returning to the Father who gave it, and the lifeless, spiritless flesh returns to the dust.

He does not have mercy on one and allow the other to suffer forever and ever.

 

[Hevosmies]

I think you meant rather than spiritualizing, rightly dividing the word of God. Its called comparing the spiritual unseen understanding to the same or we could say faith to faith. The eternal to the eternal. and not the literal as that seen the temporal to that seen the temporal .(2 Corintians4:18) we look not to the things see but rather to the spiritual unseen.

It is how we find the understanding in parable seeing without parables Christ spoke not.



According to Hebrew 4 every time we hear his voice working within us and do "mix it with faith" as another way of saying believe God not seen, and do not harden our hearts we have entered His rest from our own works. It is God who does works in us to make our hearts soft.



Hell is shown as a living suffering or living sacrifice. Dead sacrifices show life was given. There are two examples of living suffering, crying out to a living God and are shown that God delivered them alive. This is with both Jonas and the Son of man, Jesus . (God cannot die)People that are dead and buried cannot cry out. They cannot even breath . When their temporal corruptible spirit dies and returns to the father and their lifeless spiritless flesh returns to the dust they will never rise to new spirit life as with the believers who have received a new spirit that will never die. They are dead for ever more

Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV)2 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

jesus suufering unto death Not dead was heard when he cried out tke this cup of suffering the father sent messengers to strengthen him and delivered him the same way as Jonas a living hell.

The beginning of the three days of suffering hell below.

Matthew 26:38Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.



Yes they partake in Colossians 1:24. the living suffering(hell). The unbeliever like that of Cain, a restless wanderer receives no sabbath rest, their hearts remain hard all the days of their life. (no relief)

God is a God of mercy, he is not merciless. Two kinds of mercy. One in respect to the elect giving them eternal life and the other their living hell without any rest ends the day their corrupted temporal spirits departs returning to the Father who gave it, and the lifeless, spiritless flesh returns to the dust.

He does not have mercy on one and allow the other to suffer forever and ever.

Oy vey!

can you just answer if you are teaching annihilationism, Yes or No?

That is what im getting from this. Did I understand correctly?

 

[Ahwatukee]

1......,
Don't they ultimately become the same?

Good day Preston,

If I may, both death and Hades being thrown into the lake of fire are personified, i.e. there are real entities representing them. The lake of fire is a place of punishment. Therefore, it would make no sense to throw and inanimate object such as the location of Hades into the lake of fire. But when death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, it is speaking about the entities representing both.

 

[carl11]

Sorry for misunderstanding your post. The reason why those who live and reign with Christ a thousand years have no ending to their reign, is because after the thousand years they continue to reign with Christ forever and ever throughout eternity, as revealed in the following scripture:

"There will be no more night in the city, and they will have no need for the light of a lamp or of the sun. For the Lord God will shine on them, and they will reign forever and ever.

The other half of what?

The chronological order of end-time events are as follows:

* The imminent appearing of the Lord to gather the church
* The period of God's wrath which takes place during that last seven years
* The Lord's return to the earth to end the age at the end of the seven years
* The thousand year reign of Christ
* The great white throne judgment
* Eternity (Revelation chapters 21 & 22)

You are correct in that those that live and reign with Christ is forever and ever that is to say it has no ending. Now with that being said then it would have to mean that the thousand yrs that is in view with the true believers reigning and living with Christ as stated in Rev. 20:4&6 would have to be understood and not a literal thousand yrs because to be with Christ is forever without end. Likewise the thousand yrs that we found in Rev. 20:2&7 would also have to be understood as not a literal number, but rather a completeness of time that God has in view.

 

[garee]

Oy vey!

can you just answer if you are teaching annihilationism, Yes or No?

That is what im getting from this. Did I understand correctly?

Its one of those doctrines I have re visited that just did not seem to make sense in respect to a God of mercy ?

So yes, that is my offer.... dead... no spirit life, never to rise to new spirit life in respect to a God of mercy.

Two kinds of mercy. One a new spirt that will never die the other the end, gone up in smoke, again never to rise to new spirit life.

He is not merciless . Mercy surpasses suffering for ever and ever (no end)

 

[Ahwatukee]

You are correct in that those that live and reign with Christ is forever and ever that is to say it has no ending. Now with that being said then it would have to mean that the thousand yrs that is in view with the true believers reigning and living with Christ as stated in Rev. 20:4&6 would have to be understood and not a literal thousand yrs because to be with Christ is forever without end. Likewise the thousand yrs that we found in Rev. 20:2&7 would also have to be understood as not a literal number, but rather a completeness of time that God has in view.

That is not proper exegesis Carl11. As Sean Connery of the Red October would say, "You're conclusions were all wrong, Ryan." The beginning of the thousand years is initiated by the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and Satan being locked up and sealed in the Abyss, with the end of the thousand years coming to its close when Satan is released from the Abyss. That completes the literal thousand years. Following that is the great white throne judgment and the passing away of this present atmosphere and earth. Below are the scriptures to support this:

Beginning of the thousand years
"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

"Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

End of the thousand years
"When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

Scripture presents the beginning and the end of the literal thousand year period. The church, the great tribulation saints and the 144,000, will all rule with Christ being in their immortal and glorified bodies, during that literal thousand years on this present earth. Following that, we will continue to rule with Christ in the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem forever and ever.

I see how desperately you are attempting to make the thousand years non-literal by providing a false apologetic. In fact, like so many others, you seem more intent on resisting and discrediting the truth at every turn. Why don't do something different and actually look at what we are presenting to you.

That the scripture states that we rule with Christ forever and ever, does not detract from the fact that we will also rule with Him during His millennial reign on earth. We will all have different responsibilities over the nations world-wide during the literal thousand year period. After the thousand years and during the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem, we will continue to reign with Christ forever and ever.

Be honest with yourself and stop looking for apologetics to discredit the truth. But seriously consider what we are presenting to you, because it is God's scriptural truth.

 

[carl11]

That is not proper exegesis Carl11. As Sean Connery of the Red October would say, "You're conclusions were all wrong, Ryan." The beginning of the thousand years is initiated by the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and Satan being locked up and sealed in the Abyss, with the end of the thousand years coming to its close when Satan is released from the Abyss. That completes the literal thousand years. Following that is the great white throne judgment and the passing away of this present atmosphere and earth. Below are the scriptures to support this:

Beginning of the thousand years
"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

"Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

End of the thousand years
"When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

Scripture presents the beginning and the end of the literal thousand year period. The church, the great tribulation saints and the 144,000, will all rule with Christ being in their immortal and glorified bodies, during that literal thousand years on this present earth. Following that, we will continue to rule with Christ in the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem forever and ever.

I see how desperately you are attempting to make the thousand years non-literal by providing a false apologetic. In fact, like so many others, you seem more intent on resisting and discrediting the truth at every turn. Why don't do something different and actually look at what we are presenting to you.

That the scripture states that we rule with Christ forever and ever, does not detract from the fact that we will also rule with Him during His millennial reign on earth. We will all have different responsibilities over the nations world-wide during the literal thousand year period. After the thousand years and during the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem, we will continue to reign with Christ forever and ever.

Be honest with yourself and stop looking for apologetics to discredit the truth. But seriously consider what we are presenting to you, because it is God's scriptural truth.

Exegesis, so we want to use these big fancy theological words. He is word for you it is called perspicuous and lets see how that works out with that of exegesis. So if we look at the idea that Christ is coming down to set up a "millennial kingdom" and he is going to have to the true believers with him reigning him also. We have a problem with that because of what we read in Hag. 2:6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
which also coincides with that of Heb. 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. This we know without a doubt it is talking about his 2nd coming in that he is coming only once more, it can not be any clearer than the word once.

We could also look at Mt. 24:29 where we read Immediately after the tribulation...here again it leaves no room for anything after the tribulation because of the wording "Immediately after"

So as of the moment it seems very perspicuous because of how God is speaking and yet I'm not putting any kind of allegory meaning or spin on this.

I'm not going to even go into detail of how Christ kingdom is not of here because you have already heard that and yet it is very clear that his kingdom is not down here. But instead I want to focus on the idea that of that the true believers as you say will reign down here on this earth for a thousand years. But in all reality it does not say they will reign down here on this earth. We have many texts saying that they will reign in heaven. Now a proof text that you might use is found in Mt. 5:5 where it is talking about the meek inheriting the earth and yet we need to define or exegesis to understand what earth God has in view and we know that from 2Pt. 3:10 that it is not talking about this earth as we know it. So if they are reigning down here for a thousand years on this earth as we know it then afterwards they go up to heaven. Would that contradict that of the true believers bodies rising to meet Christ up in the as defined in 1Thess. 4:16 & 17

The beginning of the thousand years is initiated by the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and Satan being locked up and sealed in the Abyss..

The fact of the matter here is that in the verses provided above along with that of many others which can be shown that when Christ comes again which would be the return, the second coming of Christ show that time will cease to exist as we know it. As far as the rest which seem conspicuous are in all reality not so conspicuous because of the fact they have not been properly exegeted.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Exegesis, so we want to use these big fancy theological words. He is word for you it is called perspicuous and lets see how that works out with that of exegesis. So if we look at the idea that Christ is coming down to set up a "millennial kingdom" and he is going to have to the true believers with him reigning him also. We have a problem with that because of what we read in Hag. 2:6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
which also coincides with that of Heb. 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. This we know without a doubt it is talking about his 2nd coming in that he is coming only once more, it can not be any clearer than the word once.

First of all, the word exegesis is "the critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially of scripture." And second, like so many others, you fail to recognize that the appearing of the Lord to gather the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, are two separate events. Therefore, God is indeed going shake the earth and the heavens during the time of His wrath, which the church will not be here to experience and that because we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

Therefore, you are correct in that Jesus is coming only one more time. When He comes to gather the church, He will be not be returning to the earth, but we will meet Him in the air where He will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for all believers - (John 14:1-3, I Thes.4:16-18)

The Blessed Hope - The church meets the Lord in the air where He takes us back to the Father's house

Second Coming - The Lord physically returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom

Two separate events!

We could also look at Mt. 24:29 where we read Immediately after the tribulation...here again it leaves no room for anything after the tribulation because of the wording "Immediately after"

That is because, the scripture above is referring to the second coming when the Lord physically and visually returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom and has nothing to do with the gathering of the church. As previously stated, the church will be following behind the Lord as He returns.

I'm not going to even go into detail of how Christ kingdom is not of here because you have already heard that and yet it is very clear that his kingdom is not down here. But instead I want to focus on the idea that of that the true believers as you say will reign down here on this earth for a thousand years. But in all reality it does not say they will reign down here on this earth. We have many texts saying that they will reign in heaven. Now a proof text that you might use is found in Mt. 5:5 where it is talking about the meek inheriting the earth and yet we need to define or exegesis to understand what earth God has in view and we know that from 2Pt. 3:10 that it is not talking about this earth as we know it. So if they are reigning down here for a thousand years on this earth as we know it then afterwards they go up to heaven. Would that contradict that of the true believers bodies rising to meet Christ up in the as defined in 1Thess. 4:16 & 17

We know that after the tribulation period, Jesus will rule on this earth for a thousand years. The scripture states that an angel seizes Satan and throws him into the Abyss and seals him in there for a thousand years. The Abyss is under the earth and a holding place for fallen angels/demons. Satan will be bound under the earth so that he cannot deceive the nations during that thousand years, which would demonstrate that Christ's millennial kingdom will be on this present earth. Below demonstrates the peace during Christ's thousand year reign on this earth:

The wolf will live with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the goat;

the calf and young lion and fatling will be together, and a little child will lead them.

The cow will graze with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

The infant will play by the cobra’s den, and the toddler will reach into the viper’s nest.

They will neither harm nor destroy on all My holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the sea is full of water.

The characteristics above reveal a time of peace during the Lord's millennial kingdom. Since none of those characteristics have yet existed since the prophecy was written and God's word must be fulfilled, then the characteristics described above are yet to be fulfilled.

The fact of the matter here is that in the verses provided above along with that of many others which can be shown that when Christ comes again which would be the return, the second coming of Christ show that time will cease to exist as we know it. As far as the rest which seem conspicuous are in all reality not so conspicuous because of the fact they have not been properly exegeted.

As long as you and others refuse to recognize that there is a difference between the Lord's appearing to gather the church vs. the Lord's coming, as long as you continue to make them the same event, your interpretation of end-time events will always be in error.

* The Lord's appearing to gather His church and take us back to the Father's house
* The time of God's wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments
* After the 7th Bowl the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His thousand year reign
* Satan bound in the Abyss during that same thousand years
* Satan released at the end of the thousand years for one last deception
* Satan thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown a thousand years earlier
* Great white throne judgment
* New, heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem (Eternal state)

All of the above is what the word of God teaches.

 

[Radius]

Its one of those doctrines I have re visited that just did not seem to make sense in respect to a God of mercy ?

So yes, that is my offer.... dead... no spirit life, never to rise to new spirit life in respect to a God of mercy.

Two kinds of mercy. One a new spirt that will never die the other the end, gone up in smoke, again never to rise to new spirit life.

He is not merciless . Mercy surpasses suffering for ever and ever (no end)

God is a God of Mercy, yes you are correct, but He is also a God of Wrath! You choosing to only view God in one light does not mean the other side of His judgment doesn't exist.

 

[Hevosmies]

There will not be a mixture of corruptible bodies (dead) and incorruptible bodies walking around at the same time. Sounds more like Hollywood today .

Okay. What about Revelation 20, the first resurrection, saints coming to life and RULING and REIGNING with Christ.
Who is there to reign over if everyone is in glorified saved bodies?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Okay. What about Revelation 20, the first resurrection, saints coming to life and RULING and REIGNING with Christ.
Who is there to reign over if everyone is in glorified saved bodies?

Hello Hevosmies,

I can't tell who you are addressing this post to, since it does not display who you are responding to. But, and I am sure that you are already aware of this, there will be some survivors of the great tribulation saints who survive the period of God's wrath and the reign of the beast. It is these who are the wheat of Matt.24:31 whom the angels will collect from the four corners of the earth when the Lord returns to end the age. Therefore, it will be the remnant of the woman/Israel and the great tribulation saints (Gentiles) who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.

There are those who say that every single great tribulation saint is killed during that time. However, that cannot be true when you have scriptures that prove this to be false, as can be seen from the following:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples.

They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.

Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This event will take place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. Notice that it says "He will judge between the 'nations,' which demonstrate that they are Gentiles. Therefore, if all of the great tribulation saints were killed during the period of God's wrath, then there would be no nations to judge between, nor would there be any nations to beat their weapons of war into agricultural tools.

 

[Hevosmies]

Hello Hevosmies,

I can't tell who you are addressing this post to, since it does not display who you are responding to. But, and I am sure that you are already aware of this, there will be some survivors of the great tribulation saints who survive the period of God's wrath and the reign of the beast. It is these who are the wheat of Matt.24:31 whom the angels will collect from the four corners of the earth when the Lord returns to end the age. Therefore, it will be the remnant of the woman/Israel and the great tribulation saints (Gentiles) who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.

There are those who say that every single great tribulation saint is killed during that time. However, that cannot be true when you have scriptures that prove this to be false, as can be seen from the following:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples.

They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.

Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This event will take place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. Notice that it says "He will judge between the 'nations,' which demonstrate that they are Gentiles. Therefore, if all of the great tribulation saints were killed during the period of God's wrath, then there would be no nations to judge between, nor would there be any nations to beat their weapons of war into agricultural tools.

Hey. Yeah im aware of this.

I was addressing that to garee who doesnt' believe in a literal millenium. Like other amills.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hey. Yeah im aware of this.

I was addressing that to garee who doesnt' believe in a literal millenium. Like other amills.

You're not going to get anywhere with him, as I believe that he is a preterist, or a variation of preterism and amillennialism.

 

[Hevosmies]

You're not going to get anywhere with him, as I believe that he is a preterist, or a variation of preterism and amillennialism.

I had my options open for amillennialism as well until a couple of hours ago. It just requires too much spiritualization, is too dangerous to teach satan is bound in these last days of major deception. And the nail to the coffin was that the catholic church teaches that. Oy vey!

Now i just got to figure out the timing of the rapture. Its difficult. Im leaning pre-trib now due to the points I made in the other thread (rapture questions) and because you (Ahwatukee) constantly answer my questions.

I guess the only hick-ups I have are the couple verses like Acts 3:21 and Matthew 24:31 (I know the idea that its for the Jews, but Jesus is speaking to His disciples there, who believed in Jesus) and the fact that the historical premillennial position was the most popular view among the early church. Like Papias (who was a hearer of John who wrote revelation) and Justin Martyr and Ignatius and Irenaeus etc. I wish these guys had just written about WHERE do they find the mortals to populate the millennium, but I guess they were busy fighting other heresies like gnosticism at the time.

At this rate i'll be decided by the time the rapture comes lol

 

[iamsoandso]

I had my options open for amillennialism as well until a couple of hours ago. It just requires too much spiritualization, is too dangerous to teach satan is bound in these last days of major deception. And the nail to the coffin was that the catholic church teaches that. Oy vey!

Now i just got to figure out the timing of the rapture. Its difficult. Im leaning pre-trib now due to the points I made in the other thread (rapture questions) and because you (Ahwatukee) constantly answer my questions.

I guess the only hick-ups I have are the couple verses like Acts 3:21 and Matthew 24:31 (I know the idea that its for the Jews, but Jesus is speaking to His disciples there, who believed in Jesus) and the fact that the historical premillennial position was the most popular view among the early church. Like Papias (who was a hearer of John who wrote revelation) and Justin Martyr and Ignatius and Irenaeus etc. I wish these guys had just written about WHERE do they find the mortals to populate the millennium, but I guess they were busy fighting other heresies like gnosticism at the time.

At this rate i'll be decided by the time the rapture comes lol

Google search "apostolic fathers post or pre trib." ,,,they were millennial but they were "post tibulation pre wrath pre mill.'s". Find the actual books that are being quoted in the search results and read them yourself(some lean to their position). I am not Catholic but If you look at the different sources of these letters youll find their library is easier to surf and after compairing that they are translated the same.

 

[Hevosmies]

Google search "apostolic fathers post or pre trib." ,,,they were millennial but they were "post tibulation pre wrath pre mill.'s". Find the actual books that are being quoted in the search results and read them yourself(some lean to their position). I am not Catholic but If you look at the different sources of these letters youll find their library is easier to surf and after compairing that they are translated the same.

Yup i noticed the Didache which is probably the earliest thing we have today (?) is post-trib. BUT it is kind of odd as it does the same kind of thing as Jesus does in Matthew 24.
Where they say "You cant know when the Lord is coming. But btw, He wont be coming back until A) B) C) and then the resurrection". How can they say we dont know when the Lord is coming back in the Didache?

If I see abomination of desolation occur, even if i see an antichrist, a mark of the beast, ANYTHING of the sort, i can EASILY tell the Lord is coming soon. What does Jesus mean by "no man knoweth the day nor hour"?

This is what the Didache says btw:

"
"Watch" over your life "let your lamps" be not quenched "and your loins" be not ungirded, but be "ready," for ye know not "the hour in which our Lord cometh."
2. But be frequently gathered together seeking the things which are profitable for your souls, for the whole time of your faith shall not profit you except ye be found perfect at the last time;
3. For in the last days the false prophets and the corruptors shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall change to hate;
4. For as lawlessness increaseth they shall hate one another and persecute and betray, and then shall appear the deceiver of the world as a Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be given over into his hands and he shall commit iniquities which have never been since the world began.
5. Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and "many shall be offended" and be lost, but "they who endure" in their faith "shall be saved" by the curse itself.
6. And "then shall appear the signs" of the truth. First the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead:
7. But not of all the dead, but as it was said, "The Lord shall come and all his saints with him."
8. Then shall the world "see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven." "

 

[iamsoandso]

Yup i noticed the Didache which is probably the earliest thing we have today (?) is post-trib. BUT it is kind of odd as it does the same kind of thing as Jesus does in Matthew 24.
Where they say "You cant know when the Lord is coming. But btw, He wont be coming back until A) B) C) and then the resurrection". How can they say we dont know when the Lord is coming back in the Didache?

If I see abomination of desolation occur, even if i see an antichrist, a mark of the beast, ANYTHING of the sort, i can EASILY tell the Lord is coming soon. What does Jesus mean by "no man knoweth the day nor hour"?

This is what the Didache says btw:

"
"Watch" over your life "let your lamps" be not quenched "and your loins" be not ungirded, but be "ready," for ye know not "the hour in which our Lord cometh."
2. But be frequently gathered together seeking the things which are profitable for your souls, for the whole time of your faith shall not profit you except ye be found perfect at the last time;
3. For in the last days the false prophets and the corruptors shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall change to hate;
4. For as lawlessness increaseth they shall hate one another and persecute and betray, and then shall appear the deceiver of the world as a Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be given over into his hands and he shall commit iniquities which have never been since the world began.
5. Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and "many shall be offended" and be lost, but "they who endure" in their faith "shall be saved" by the curse itself.
6. And "then shall appear the signs" of the truth. First the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead:
7. But not of all the dead, but as it was said, "The Lord shall come and all his saints with him."
8. Then shall the world "see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven." "

Yep, I learned that if someone quotes from any writing scripture or not that I should open a new window and google it and read it in it's context for my self...

 

[carl11]

the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, are two separate events.

Therefore, you are correct in that Jesus is coming only one more time. When He comes to gather the church, He will be not be returning to the earth, but we will meet Him in the air where He will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for all believers - (John 14:1-3, I Thes.4:16-18)

That is because, the scripture above is referring to the second coming when the Lord physically and visually returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom and has nothing to do with the gathering of the church. As previously stated, the church will be following behind the Lord as He returns.

As long as you and others refuse to recognize that there is a difference between the Lord's appearing to gather the church vs. the Lord's coming, as long as you continue to make them the same event, your interpretation of end-time events will always be in error.

* The Lord's appearing to gather His church and take us back to the Father's house
* The time of God's wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments
* After the 7th Bowl the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His thousand year reign
* Satan bound in the Abyss during that same thousand years
* Satan released at the end of the thousand years for one last deception
* Satan thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown a thousand years earlier
* Great white throne judgment
* New, heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem (Eternal state)

All of the above is what the word of God teaches.

You like to use the phrase "to end the age" and if this phrase means as what it stands for then, there is no further time.

I might add also that according to your doctrinal belief the true believers leave this present day earth and then return again ? If not then who is the kingdom and to what purpose is his kingdom if there are no true believers unless somehow people become saved after the end of the age which would be quite contrary to scripture.

 

[iamsoandso]

Yup i noticed the Didache which is probably the earliest thing we have today (?) is post-trib. BUT it is kind of odd as it does the same kind of thing as Jesus does in Matthew 24.
Where they say "You cant know when the Lord is coming. But btw, He wont be coming back until A) B) C) and then the resurrection". How can they say we dont know when the Lord is coming back in the Didache?

If I see abomination of desolation occur, even if i see an antichrist, a mark of the beast, ANYTHING of the sort, i can EASILY tell the Lord is coming soon. What does Jesus mean by "no man knoweth the day nor hour"?

This is what the Didache says btw:

"
"Watch" over your life "let your lamps" be not quenched "and your loins" be not ungirded, but be "ready," for ye know not "the hour in which our Lord cometh."
2. But be frequently gathered together seeking the things which are profitable for your souls, for the whole time of your faith shall not profit you except ye be found perfect at the last time;
3. For in the last days the false prophets and the corruptors shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall change to hate;.
4. For as lawlessness increaseth they shall hate one another and persecute and betray, and then shall appear the deceiver of the world as a Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be given over into his hands and he shall commit iniquities which have never been since the world began.
5. Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and "many shall be offended" and be lost, but "they who endure" in their faith "shall be saved" by the curse itself.
6. And "then shall appear the signs" of the truth. First the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead:
7. But not of all the dead, but as it was said, "The Lord shall come and all his saints with him."
8. Then shall the world "see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven." "

I was still thinking about what you said and apologize for not giving you an answer to what you ask. In the law of Moses the priest would examine the grain offering,why is that it needed to be the first fruits(no spot or blemish). The Hebrew calendar was adjusted by adding or removing a month every several years to so that the grain offering would not be over ripe or under ripe. After examining it the priest would tell those who were living in other countries when(what month/day) to return to Jerusalem the next year.

So Jesus is the perfect sacrifice and the final sacrifice and we now should pick up our temporary tents and return until the next time we are to gather together. So how will we after the final sacrifice is given know when to say to them to return? Those days are discussed in Daniel 12(difference of an extra month) and those days are also cut short for the elects sake...