Is eternal torment in hell fire Biblical
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Praise be to God! And not only because you believe, but to everyone else who believes in the Lord's promise and is looking forward to the "blessed hope," the Lord's appearing to gather His church and speeding its coming!
After Paul wrote the detailed account of the Lord's appearing and our being caught up in I Thes.4:13-17, he finished with "therefore, comfort each other with these words." Likewise when writing to Titus, Paul called the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him as the "blessed hope." That said, if the living church were to go through God's wrath prior to being caught up, then we surely could not comfort each other with those words, nor would it be a blessed hope.
Regarding the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3 where He tells His disciples and all believers, that He is going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that He is coming back to get us, He first says, "Do not let your hearts be troubled." Again, if the living church was to go through the entire wrath of God, then there would certainly be reason for us to be troubled.
Below is the entire scripture:
"All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."
I understand that your concern is that the scripture makes it appear that when the Lord is revealed from heaven in blazing fire, that at that time He gives us relief which would infer that we will be on the earth when He returns so that we can receive His rest and be avenged. However, and without going over every detail, I would draw your attention to what I have highlighted in red when Paul says "and to us as well." So the question is, how could the Lord give rest to Paul and those with him who have already died, since the Lord has yet to be revealed from heaven in blazing fire with His holy angels? Therefore, he must have another meaning in mind or he may be generalizing. Just something to consider.
Yeah, I agree! It would make no sense, for one, for the Lord to put His Bride through His wrath, (what bridegroom would do that?)especially when scripture states that everyone who believes in the Lord has been credited with righteousness and has been reconciled to God. Believers have been seated in heavenly places with Christ. But first He's going to put us through His wrath? The principle of this is that, Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon us. My belief is that, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements represents the fulfillment of the long prophesied "Day of the Lord."
And number two, I don't know how extensively you have studied the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, but with just the first four seals and the 6th trumpet combined, a fourth and a third respectively, over half the earths population will have been killed! And that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments. By the time the Lord returns to end the age, I believe that there will only be about 10% of the earths population remaining. This is supported by Jesus' when He said, "There will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. Except those days were shortened, no one would be left alive." In other words, if that seven years and specifically the last 3 1/2 years were allowed to go on any longer, then no one would left alive on the earth.
I am already blessed by your knowledge and desire for the truth. And I certainly will get back to you regarding those other issues.
After Paul wrote the detailed account of the Lord's appearing and our being caught up in I Thes.4:13-17, he finished with "therefore, comfort each other with these words." Likewise when writing to Titus, Paul called the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him as the "blessed hope." That said, if the living church were to go through God's wrath prior to being caught up, then we surely could not comfort each other with those words, nor would it be a blessed hope.
Regarding the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3 where He tells His disciples and all believers, that He is going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that He is coming back to get us, He first says, "Do not let your hearts be troubled." Again, if the living church was to go through the entire wrath of God, then there would certainly be reason for us to be troubled.
Below is the entire scripture:
"All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."
I understand that your concern is that the scripture makes it appear that when the Lord is revealed from heaven in blazing fire, that at that time He gives us relief which would infer that we will be on the earth when He returns so that we can receive His rest and be avenged. However, and without going over every detail, I would draw your attention to what I have highlighted in red when Paul says "and to us as well." So the question is, how could the Lord give rest to Paul and those with him who have already died, since the Lord has yet to be revealed from heaven in blazing fire with His holy angels? Therefore, he must have another meaning in mind or he may be generalizing. Just something to consider.
Yeah, I agree! It would make no sense, for one, for the Lord to put His Bride through His wrath, (what bridegroom would do that?)especially when scripture states that everyone who believes in the Lord has been credited with righteousness and has been reconciled to God. Believers have been seated in heavenly places with Christ. But first He's going to put us through His wrath? The principle of this is that, Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon us. My belief is that, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements represents the fulfillment of the long prophesied "Day of the Lord."
And number two, I don't know how extensively you have studied the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, but with just the first four seals and the 6th trumpet combined, a fourth and a third respectively, over half the earths population will have been killed! And that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments. By the time the Lord returns to end the age, I believe that there will only be about 10% of the earths population remaining. This is supported by Jesus' when He said, "There will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. Except those days were shortened, no one would be left alive." In other words, if that seven years and specifically the last 3 1/2 years were allowed to go on any longer, then no one would left alive on the earth.
I am already blessed by your knowledge and desire for the truth. And I certainly will get back to you regarding those other issues.
Of Course there were people saved in the O.T. look at Abraham who was a gentile he was saved, we also have 7 thousand who did not bow down to Baal. [Rom.11:4]
Satan is not currently bound we know that because the Bible says he goes about as a roaring lion to devour. [1Pt. 5:8] If he was bound then this text could not be correct. The idea of Satan being bound is that he was restrained in that it was God's completeness of time that he had in mind to restrain Satan so that the gospel may go out and save those whom he had planned. This same idea is conveyed in Jude 1:6.
Its funny how those that will look at the Bible literally and never explain how can one bind a spirit with physical chains, unless you considered it symbolically and if so then the rest of the passage would have to be understand likewise. When talking about the 1000yrs and those that are reigning with Christ notice that it has a beginning and no ending. If it has an ending where do they go afterwards. Likewise the other thousand yrs that is being talked about has a beginning and ending.
Satan is not currently bound we know that because the Bible says he goes about as a roaring lion to devour. [1Pt. 5:8] If he was bound then this text could not be correct. The idea of Satan being bound is that he was restrained in that it was God's completeness of time that he had in mind to restrain Satan so that the gospel may go out and save those whom he had planned. This same idea is conveyed in Jude 1:6.
Its funny how those that will look at the Bible literally and never explain how can one bind a spirit with physical chains, unless you considered it symbolically and if so then the rest of the passage would have to be understand likewise. When talking about the 1000yrs and those that are reigning with Christ notice that it has a beginning and no ending. If it has an ending where do they go afterwards. Likewise the other thousand yrs that is being talked about has a beginning and ending.
Hello Carl11,
Don't know exactly what you are trying to say here, but according to Rev.20:1-3, Satan will be bound in the Abyss which is a literal place within the earth, which is yet future. His being bound has nothing to do with the preaching of the gospel, but to keep him from being able to deceive those living on the earth during the millennial period, i.e. Satan will have no exposure to human beings when He is locked up in the Abyss. No exposure whatsoever. To be clear, Satan being locked up in the Abyss is not speaking allegorically or symbolically, but literally.
All you are doing here is repeating the false teachings of men, because I have heard this all before many, many times! Whether the key to the Abyss or the chain that the angel binds Satan with is corporeal or incorporeal, the result is the same. Obviously fallen angels/demons are able to be imprisoned and that because the angel of the Abyss, the beast, is currently in the Abyss and is released at the 5th trumpet along with his demonic horde.
Obviously there is something restraining demonic beings from coming up out of the Abyss. For all we know there could be some type of restricting force under the earths surface that God put there. Regardless, we have scriptures that demonstrate that angels/demons are currently restricted under the earth. Regarding this, both Peter and Jude spoke about the angels that were put down into gloomy dungeons bound with chains until the day of judgment. These angels that they are referring to were most likely those who took wives and produced offspring with the women of the earth.
The thousand years does have an ending:
"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle.
Therefore, I don't know why you would say that it has not ending?
To be clear, Christ's return to the earth to end the age initiates the thousand years and then 999 years later it comes to an end.
Don't know exactly what you are trying to say here, but according to Rev.20:1-3, Satan will be bound in the Abyss which is a literal place within the earth, which is yet future. His being bound has nothing to do with the preaching of the gospel, but to keep him from being able to deceive those living on the earth during the millennial period, i.e. Satan will have no exposure to human beings when He is locked up in the Abyss. No exposure whatsoever. To be clear, Satan being locked up in the Abyss is not speaking allegorically or symbolically, but literally.
All you are doing here is repeating the false teachings of men, because I have heard this all before many, many times! Whether the key to the Abyss or the chain that the angel binds Satan with is corporeal or incorporeal, the result is the same. Obviously fallen angels/demons are able to be imprisoned and that because the angel of the Abyss, the beast, is currently in the Abyss and is released at the 5th trumpet along with his demonic horde.
Obviously there is something restraining demonic beings from coming up out of the Abyss. For all we know there could be some type of restricting force under the earths surface that God put there. Regardless, we have scriptures that demonstrate that angels/demons are currently restricted under the earth. Regarding this, both Peter and Jude spoke about the angels that were put down into gloomy dungeons bound with chains until the day of judgment. These angels that they are referring to were most likely those who took wives and produced offspring with the women of the earth.
The thousand years does have an ending:
"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle.
Therefore, I don't know why you would say that it has not ending?
To be clear, Christ's return to the earth to end the age initiates the thousand years and then 999 years later it comes to an end.
Christians are not required to *explain* everything revealed in the Bible. Indeed no one could possibly *explain* the triune Godhead, or the deity of Christ, or salvation by grace through faith. All that we are required to do is BELIEVE God's truth.
So it is with the binding of Satan in Revelation 20. If God says he is bound with a chain within the bottomless pit, then we must conclude that it is a supernatural chain which can restrain a spirit being. Let's not forget that the "angels which kept not their first estate" (meaning "the angels which sinned" before the Flood and corrupted humanity) are also chained in Tartarus. Does anyone know the nature of those chains? Obviously not. Does that mean that we cannot believe that what God has said through His apostles and prophets is absolutely true?
THERE IS NOTHING SYMBOLIC IN REVELATION 20:1-1O.
Your job (and mine) is to simply believe it, and not impose any false symbolism simply because it is beyond our comprehension.
Amillennials falsely claim that Satan is ALREADY bound. We know that that is UTTER NONSENSE since sin and evil continue to increase on this earth. However, during the Millennium, he will be literally bound and unable to influence human beings. We must therefore assume that all his evil angels and demons will also be bound in that bottomless pit, so that there is perfect righteousness and peace on earth for 1,000 years.
So it is with the binding of Satan in Revelation 20. If God says he is bound with a chain within the bottomless pit, then we must conclude that it is a supernatural chain which can restrain a spirit being. Let's not forget that the "angels which kept not their first estate" (meaning "the angels which sinned" before the Flood and corrupted humanity) are also chained in Tartarus. Does anyone know the nature of those chains? Obviously not. Does that mean that we cannot believe that what God has said through His apostles and prophets is absolutely true?
THERE IS NOTHING SYMBOLIC IN REVELATION 20:1-1O.
Your job (and mine) is to simply believe it, and not impose any false symbolism simply because it is beyond our comprehension.
Amillennials falsely claim that Satan is ALREADY bound. We know that that is UTTER NONSENSE since sin and evil continue to increase on this earth. However, during the Millennium, he will be literally bound and unable to influence human beings. We must therefore assume that all his evil angels and demons will also be bound in that bottomless pit, so that there is perfect righteousness and peace on earth for 1,000 years.
It is HADES which is going to be thrown into Hell (the Lake of Fire). It is very unfortunate that the KJV and other translators applied the word "hell" to both Gehenna (Hell), Hades, and Tartarus. It has caused no end of confusion.
Christ descended into Hades for 3 days and 3 nights. The Rich Man and Lazarus were in Hades, one in torment, the other at rest (in *Abraham's Bosom*), and separated by a wide gulf. Since the resurrection of Christ, there are no saints in Hades, and all those who die in Christ go directly to Heaven, to be with Him and in His presence. The martyr Stephen is a good example.
However, the unsaved dead (souls and spirits) still go to Hades, while their bodies are said to *sleep* in their graves. They will eventually be in Hell (the Lake of Fire).
NOTE: Sheol/Hades in the OT was also mistranslated as "the grave", hence the Soul Sleep proponents latched on to this to create their false doctrine (along with Annihilationism).
Christ descended into Hades for 3 days and 3 nights. The Rich Man and Lazarus were in Hades, one in torment, the other at rest (in *Abraham's Bosom*), and separated by a wide gulf. Since the resurrection of Christ, there are no saints in Hades, and all those who die in Christ go directly to Heaven, to be with Him and in His presence. The martyr Stephen is a good example.
However, the unsaved dead (souls and spirits) still go to Hades, while their bodies are said to *sleep* in their graves. They will eventually be in Hell (the Lake of Fire).
NOTE: Sheol/Hades in the OT was also mistranslated as "the grave", hence the Soul Sleep proponents latched on to this to create their false doctrine (along with Annihilationism).
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Thanks for the info. I don't think I've ever heard of Hades before. I'm a KJV reader so I never knew that.
So just a quick question, which one is outer darkness? I've heard many people say that it is Hell. Which is still a little confusing for me so I guess what I am asking is it the place people go when they die or is it the place they go after judgment?
So just a quick question, which one is outer darkness? I've heard many people say that it is Hell. Which is still a little confusing for me so I guess what I am asking is it the place people go when they die or is it the place they go after judgment?
The book of Revelation in the first verse identifies the kind of inspired word "as signified" .Both inspired and signified, using the things seen to represent the unseen faith of God not seen . This would include chapter 20.
Revelation 1:1 King James 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
What is the signified meaning of the words thousand years hid from the lost? Or the same with the key(representing the gospel) , or chain seeing literal chains cannot bind lying spirits . What does it mean to bind other than Satan is no longer able to appear with the angels that have not left their first place of habitation?
Revelation 20 :1-2And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
The word thousand represents a unknown in whatever is in view . It is the whole new testament period (the veil is rent signaling the beginning of the last days) as used up till the last day.... when the Sun and moon will no longer needed as temporal time keepers.
When the kingdoms or sects of this world become the kingdom of God in the new heavens and earth.
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.Revelation 21:22-24
Revelation 1:1 King James 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
What is the signified meaning of the words thousand years hid from the lost? Or the same with the key(representing the gospel) , or chain seeing literal chains cannot bind lying spirits . What does it mean to bind other than Satan is no longer able to appear with the angels that have not left their first place of habitation?
Revelation 20 :1-2And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
The word thousand represents a unknown in whatever is in view . It is the whole new testament period (the veil is rent signaling the beginning of the last days) as used up till the last day.... when the Sun and moon will no longer needed as temporal time keepers.
When the kingdoms or sects of this world become the kingdom of God in the new heavens and earth.
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.Revelation 21:22-24
Hell is described as a living breathing suffering.
Because the Son of man is no longer here we receive the poisonous arrows as false doctrines of the father of lies as our hell. But as believers we do enter his rest when we mix faith(Hebrew 4) therefore not hardening our hearts and not continuing to suffer as the lost.(no faith)
2 Corinthians 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, (not of us) so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
The dead receive no relief (sabbath rest) all the days of their life. They cannot breath under ground .Unlike the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. But like that of Cain, a beast of the field made with the dust of the field the (666) marked man, a restless wanderer (no sabbath)
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
I never said it did not have an ending what I did say is that the true believers that live and reign with Christ a thousand years has a begging and not an ending. Like wise when it is talking the thousand years in 2 & 7 they have a beginning and a ending. So with that in mind how do you interpret the other half and yet where does the “rapture” fit into your scheme of time; before or after your “millinieal reign” ?
I never said it did not have an ending what I did say was that the true believers that reign and live with Christ for a thousand years has a beginning and no ending, likewise in verses 2 & 7 the thousand years mentioned has a beginning and a ending. So with that in mind how does the "rapture" fit into your scheme of time; is it before your "millennial reign" or after ?
And yet there will be another opportunity for others to become saved during this wonderful time because they did not hear the gospel the 1st time. I'm sure you have heard this phrase have you not ?
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [1Thess. 5:3]
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [1Thess. 5:3]
If God says he inspired the book of Revelation and signified it why would we think it was a literal chain?
What does it mean to signify something other than be a sign of?
The supernatural (no nature as a beginning ) would apply gospel the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against .It's the gospel that binds and loosens spirits . And what does a bottom pit signify other than non ending?
And perfect peace, when men say peace in the twinkling of the eye will come sudden destruction .
What does it mean to signify something other than be a sign of?
The supernatural (no nature as a beginning ) would apply gospel the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against .It's the gospel that binds and loosens spirits . And what does a bottom pit signify other than non ending?
And perfect peace, when men say peace in the twinkling of the eye will come sudden destruction .
Sorry for misunderstanding your post. The reason why those who live and reign with Christ a thousand years have no ending to their reign, is because after the thousand years they continue to reign with Christ forever and ever throughout eternity, as revealed in the following scripture:
"There will be no more night in the city, and they will have no need for the light of a lamp or of the sun. For the Lord God will shine on them, and they will reign forever and ever.
The other half of what?
The chronological order of end-time events are as follows:
* The imminent appearing of the Lord to gather the church
* The period of God's wrath which takes place during that last seven years
* The Lord's return to the earth to end the age at the end of the seven years
* The thousand year reign of Christ
* The great white throne judgment
* Eternity (Revelation chapters 21 & 22)
"There will be no more night in the city, and they will have no need for the light of a lamp or of the sun. For the Lord God will shine on them, and they will reign forever and ever.
The other half of what?
The chronological order of end-time events are as follows:
* The imminent appearing of the Lord to gather the church
* The period of God's wrath which takes place during that last seven years
* The Lord's return to the earth to end the age at the end of the seven years
* The thousand year reign of Christ
* The great white throne judgment
* Eternity (Revelation chapters 21 & 22)
The "sudden destruction" referred to above takes place after the church has been gathered. Consider the rest of that scripture:
"While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief."
In the scripture above, it states that sudden destruction will come upon those who have rejected Christ. And that sudden destruction is referring to the time of God's wrath. Immediately following Paul's description of the beginning of their destruction, he then follows with "but you brothers are not in darkness so that this day (period of destruction) should overtake you like a thief." With just the first three words "But you brothers" it would infer the opposite of not escaping, i.e. but you brother will escape. And the way in which believers will escape is found in the detailed account of the resurrection and catching away of the church that Paul just previously wrote about in I Thes.4:13-18.
"While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief."
In the scripture above, it states that sudden destruction will come upon those who have rejected Christ. And that sudden destruction is referring to the time of God's wrath. Immediately following Paul's description of the beginning of their destruction, he then follows with "but you brothers are not in darkness so that this day (period of destruction) should overtake you like a thief." With just the first three words "But you brothers" it would infer the opposite of not escaping, i.e. but you brother will escape. And the way in which believers will escape is found in the detailed account of the resurrection and catching away of the church that Paul just previously wrote about in I Thes.4:13-18.
Oy vey! This is spiritualizing on another level. I've never seen or heard anything like it. You would put Origen to shame. I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.
But lets try to adress this on a level that fishermen can understand, ok? As believers we do enter His rest, yes, BUT not now, in fact we are now in a fight for our lives, we are told in this world you will have tribulation. Currently christians have tribulation, anguish, anxiety and stress, certainly there is the joy of the Lord, but you cannot take a Scripture that is talking about the Sabbath rest of the earth (imo) the millennium and apply to it to now.
Another thing you said was that hell is living breathing suffering, are you aware that hell is not a present reality to those who are alive? If you are on this planet breathing currently, you're not in hell. You will be if you die in a lost state. However thats LATER ON not NOW. If hell truly was here now in the present, it seems christians are in it and not the unsaved. Christians are the ones who have been persecuted for their faith for centuries.
But lets try to adress this on a level that fishermen can understand, ok? As believers we do enter His rest, yes, BUT not now, in fact we are now in a fight for our lives, we are told in this world you will have tribulation. Currently christians have tribulation, anguish, anxiety and stress, certainly there is the joy of the Lord, but you cannot take a Scripture that is talking about the Sabbath rest of the earth (imo) the millennium and apply to it to now.
Another thing you said was that hell is living breathing suffering, are you aware that hell is not a present reality to those who are alive? If you are on this planet breathing currently, you're not in hell. You will be if you die in a lost state. However thats LATER ON not NOW. If hell truly was here now in the present, it seems christians are in it and not the unsaved. Christians are the ones who have been persecuted for their faith for centuries.