Not By Works
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I will say this, I lean pre-trib, but not set in stone.
There are 4 basic beliefs
1. Amil - we are in the mellinium now. Demands a symbolic interpretation of scripture
2. Pre-mill - we are in the church age, Gods earthly kingdom is yet future, he will reign for 1000 years
Pre-mil - post trib. - rapture occures after the tribulation
Mid-trib - rapture happens mid 7 year before the abomination of desolation
Pre-trib, rapture will have to occure before the 7 years begin.
These three are determined by hw you interpret certain passages. Or certain things.
The isue is we have to study these things, The best thing to do is study all possible beliefs, as it weill help us better determine what most likely is not a good position.
Ie. If you believe prophesy must be interpreted literally, and reject literal interpretation of events. You can rule out amil belief
As my two examples above showed. I can personally rule out post trib based on those two alone, yer=t there is more than this.
That leaves two possible possitions, and I have not determined which one I will stand by,, Usually I play devils advocate as to why I can not follow these other beliefs. Are defending people who believe a certian way when the accusers are falsly representing them or their arguments do not stand by the word.
There are 4 basic beliefs
1. Amil - we are in the mellinium now. Demands a symbolic interpretation of scripture
2. Pre-mill - we are in the church age, Gods earthly kingdom is yet future, he will reign for 1000 years
Pre-mil - post trib. - rapture occures after the tribulation
Mid-trib - rapture happens mid 7 year before the abomination of desolation
Pre-trib, rapture will have to occure before the 7 years begin.
These three are determined by hw you interpret certain passages. Or certain things.
The isue is we have to study these things, The best thing to do is study all possible beliefs, as it weill help us better determine what most likely is not a good position.
Ie. If you believe prophesy must be interpreted literally, and reject literal interpretation of events. You can rule out amil belief
As my two examples above showed. I can personally rule out post trib based on those two alone, yer=t there is more than this.
That leaves two possible possitions, and I have not determined which one I will stand by,, Usually I play devils advocate as to why I can not follow these other beliefs. Are defending people who believe a certian way when the accusers are falsly representing them or their arguments do not stand by the word.
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I no longer buy the 3.5 years of peace ...Daniel tells us there is exactly 1335 days left, the first 1185 days was the ministry of Jesus unto the Jews, they rejected as a whole and will endure the last 1335 days....30 days of peace, 1260 of tribulation, 45 of wrath.....
My stance based upon math and study
haha
My stance based upon math and study
haha
Now where have I heard that before, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . hmmm.
Oh yeah, that was stated by none other than Harold Camping.
Our Lord was Jew, and He had FULL knowledge of Jewish Traditions and Practices. Does it not make sense to Study to find DEEPER, insight to what HE referred to as His Bride?
He is talking about the Churches that Believe that CHRIST can return, NOT TO EARTH, but way up in the Clouds or even in space above our atmosphere, to SEND the Archangel on to Call out HIS Bride, at anytime.
THAT ALIGNS perfectly with the Traditions in a Jewish Wedding of 2000 years, and Orthodox Jews still practice it that way. When the FATHER made HIS final inspection of the New Dwelling Place, and no one KNEW when that would be; HE would turn to HIS Son and say something like this: "IT IS FINISHED, SON, GO GET YOUR BRIDE." The Bridegroom would NEVER go all the way to the Old Dwelling Place of the Bride. He would stop at least a couple blocks away, and it says JESUS will be in the Clouds. Then He would send the CHOSEN one from His Wedding Party, His Archangel, on to the Old Dwelling Place of the Bride, and SHOUT just out side of the DOOR for Her to COME OUT.
Matthew 25:5-10 (HCSB)
5 Since the groom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6 “In the middle of the night there was a shout: ‘Here’s the groom! Come out to meet him.’
7 “Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.
8 But the foolish ones said to the sensible ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’
9 “The sensible ones answered, ‘No, there won’t be enough for us and for you. Go instead to those who sell, and buy oil for yourselves.’
10 “When they had gone to buy some, the groom arrived. Then those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.
NOTICE it is NOT CHRIST AT THE DOOR WHO SHOUTS, BUT ANOTHER WHO IS DESIGNATED TO SHOUT.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (HCSB)
15 For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
THAT LIFT, GOES ALL THE WAY TO HEAVEN FOR THE WEDDING OF THE LAMB.
Now to BLAST the Post Tribulation Believers Logic clean out of the WATER. Take a Look At this Verse, that PERMANENTLY establishes that ONLY an IMMINENT CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, can FIT*. NO, it is NOT A RETURN UNTIL HIS FEET TOUCHES THE MOUNT OF OLIVES:
Zechariah 14:4 (ESV)
4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
*Matthew 25:13 (ESV)
13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
WHY did he TELL those, all most 2000 years ago, that they HAD TO WATCH, AND KEEP READY, if the Post Tribulation THEORY was even close to being true.
Yes, I WHOLEHEARTEDLY Believe that OUR BRIDEGROOM, will have the ARCHANGEL SHOUT, AND CALL ALL OF THE ASSEMBLY THAT HE HAS BUILT, PRIOR TO WHEN THE GREAT TRIBULATION BEGINS.
Revelation 19:6-9 (HCSB)
6 Then I heard something like the voice of a vast multitude, like the sound of cascading waters, and like the rumbling of loud thunder, saying: Hallelujah, because our Lord God, the Almighty, has begun to reign!
7 Let us be glad, rejoice, and give Him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself.
8 She was given fine linen to wear, bright and pure. For the fine linen represents the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, “Write: Those invited to the marriage feast of the Lamb are fortunate!” He also said to me, “These words of God are true.”
HOW MANY MARRIAGE FEASTS ARE THERE. Now there are TWO OFFICIAL MARRIAGE FEASTS, however, some consider every meal to be a Feast. ONE at the FATHER of the Bridegroom's House at the end of the Wedding Ceremony, and a SECOND ONE a few days later for Her relatives that could not make it to the WEDDING, where they EVEN REPEAT their Vows. Who might that be ? ? ? Oh how quickly you forget, the 144,000 Jews that were SEALED BY GOD, and even the birds of the air get to feast at the battlefield.
A Jewish Wedding 2000 years ago, and in all Orthodox Jewish Congregations today, lasted SEVEN DAYS, and some say it is a week of Years, which I lean to, however Seven Literal Days is equally possible. Either way WE HAVE TO BE THERE AHEAD OF TIME.
How LONG is the Preparation of the Bride? It does not say, other than that would include the righteous acts of the Saints, which are most of it. I think we are IN HEAVEN before these VERSES:
Revelation 6:12-17 (HCSB)
12 Then I saw Him open the sixth seal. A violent earthquake occurred; the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair; the entire moon became like blood;
13 the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind;
14 the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up; and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
17 because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?”
WHY?
1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NRSV)
9 For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Revelation 3:10 (NRSV)
10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
So DC, if you want to wait for the SECOND FEAST, so be it. However, I HAVE MY INVITE ALREADY, to GO TO THE FATHER'S HOUSE FOR THE WEDDING, and THE FIRST FEAST.
THAT ALIGNS perfectly with the Traditions in a Jewish Wedding of 2000 years, and Orthodox Jews still practice it that way. When the FATHER made HIS final inspection of the New Dwelling Place, and no one KNEW when that would be; HE would turn to HIS Son and say something like this: "IT IS FINISHED, SON, GO GET YOUR BRIDE." The Bridegroom would NEVER go all the way to the Old Dwelling Place of the Bride. He would stop at least a couple blocks away, and it says JESUS will be in the Clouds. Then He would send the CHOSEN one from His Wedding Party, His Archangel, on to the Old Dwelling Place of the Bride, and SHOUT just out side of the DOOR for Her to COME OUT.
Matthew 25:5-10 (HCSB)
5 Since the groom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6 “In the middle of the night there was a shout: ‘Here’s the groom! Come out to meet him.’
7 “Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.
8 But the foolish ones said to the sensible ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’
9 “The sensible ones answered, ‘No, there won’t be enough for us and for you. Go instead to those who sell, and buy oil for yourselves.’
10 “When they had gone to buy some, the groom arrived. Then those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.
NOTICE it is NOT CHRIST AT THE DOOR WHO SHOUTS, BUT ANOTHER WHO IS DESIGNATED TO SHOUT.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (HCSB)
15 For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
THAT LIFT, GOES ALL THE WAY TO HEAVEN FOR THE WEDDING OF THE LAMB.
Now to BLAST the Post Tribulation Believers Logic clean out of the WATER. Take a Look At this Verse, that PERMANENTLY establishes that ONLY an IMMINENT CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, can FIT*. NO, it is NOT A RETURN UNTIL HIS FEET TOUCHES THE MOUNT OF OLIVES:
Zechariah 14:4 (ESV)
4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
*Matthew 25:13 (ESV)
13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
WHY did he TELL those, all most 2000 years ago, that they HAD TO WATCH, AND KEEP READY, if the Post Tribulation THEORY was even close to being true.
Yes, I WHOLEHEARTEDLY Believe that OUR BRIDEGROOM, will have the ARCHANGEL SHOUT, AND CALL ALL OF THE ASSEMBLY THAT HE HAS BUILT, PRIOR TO WHEN THE GREAT TRIBULATION BEGINS.
Revelation 19:6-9 (HCSB)
6 Then I heard something like the voice of a vast multitude, like the sound of cascading waters, and like the rumbling of loud thunder, saying: Hallelujah, because our Lord God, the Almighty, has begun to reign!
7 Let us be glad, rejoice, and give Him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself.
8 She was given fine linen to wear, bright and pure. For the fine linen represents the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, “Write: Those invited to the marriage feast of the Lamb are fortunate!” He also said to me, “These words of God are true.”
HOW MANY MARRIAGE FEASTS ARE THERE. Now there are TWO OFFICIAL MARRIAGE FEASTS, however, some consider every meal to be a Feast. ONE at the FATHER of the Bridegroom's House at the end of the Wedding Ceremony, and a SECOND ONE a few days later for Her relatives that could not make it to the WEDDING, where they EVEN REPEAT their Vows. Who might that be ? ? ? Oh how quickly you forget, the 144,000 Jews that were SEALED BY GOD, and even the birds of the air get to feast at the battlefield.
A Jewish Wedding 2000 years ago, and in all Orthodox Jewish Congregations today, lasted SEVEN DAYS, and some say it is a week of Years, which I lean to, however Seven Literal Days is equally possible. Either way WE HAVE TO BE THERE AHEAD OF TIME.
How LONG is the Preparation of the Bride? It does not say, other than that would include the righteous acts of the Saints, which are most of it. I think we are IN HEAVEN before these VERSES:
Revelation 6:12-17 (HCSB)
12 Then I saw Him open the sixth seal. A violent earthquake occurred; the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair; the entire moon became like blood;
13 the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind;
14 the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up; and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
17 because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?”
WHY?
1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NRSV)
9 For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Revelation 3:10 (NRSV)
10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
So DC, if you want to wait for the SECOND FEAST, so be it. However, I HAVE MY INVITE ALREADY, to GO TO THE FATHER'S HOUSE FOR THE WEDDING, and THE FIRST FEAST.
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In my way of thinking if the rapture happen on day 2 of the tribulation. It's mid trib. Pre trib. only works for me if it happens before the start hence the word pre. He's trying to teach me post trib., I'll check it out but I find it doubtful. Mid trib. makes the most sense to me because of the warnings regarding the mark. Who besides non believers would refuse it if they couldn't buy or sell without it. I've heard educated Christians debate about 40 years and it's not a matter of salvation so what's the difference If we were sure it would happen at midnight tonight many would wait till 11:59 to repent so the Lord never told us. He want's to repent now and he's not fooling around.
Coming to realise that I do not know much given the above and the conversations for the last few pages.
I'm just gonna love people and walk with them in their endeavours to be like Jesus.
No offense meant to anyone above and over the last few pages.
I will research what has been discussed over the last few pages but to be honest I feel it has no bearing on salvation, no bearing in being set free in Jesus.
God bless you all in your endeavours.
I'm just gonna love people and walk with them in their endeavours to be like Jesus.
No offense meant to anyone above and over the last few pages.
I will research what has been discussed over the last few pages but to be honest I feel it has no bearing on salvation, no bearing in being set free in Jesus.
God bless you all in your endeavours.
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You are correct sir, it has NO bearing on salvation. It has been debated for longer than I've been around. The rapture doctrines are fairly new to Major Christianity in large numbers for less than 200 years. People will fuss over anything communion; bread, unleavened bread, crackers, or tortillas. Fermented wine or grape juice. Baptism, public or private. Children, babies or adults? and on and on. Most of us agree Jesus IS GOD. Born in the flesh by a Virgin accepted our sins and was murdered by Romans for us and didn't have to be. Came out of the tomb in the flesh, alive again on the morning of the third day and is coming back for us. That's all we need to accept. I apologise we get off track often as the conversation changes thru time.
Romans 1 is to "those who hold the TRUTH in unrighteousness". Romans 1:18
Paul says that "they are without excuse". Romans 1:19
Paul says "when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither thankful, but became vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened". Romans 1:20
Paul is denying that there is such a doctrine as OSAS. These people had the truth, but loved their imaginations and their foolish hearts were darkened. Were in the light (baptism of the spirit and saved) and then fell away and turned to darkness (lost their light and their salvation).
Paul says that "they are without excuse". Romans 1:19
Paul says "when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither thankful, but became vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened". Romans 1:20
Paul is denying that there is such a doctrine as OSAS. These people had the truth, but loved their imaginations and their foolish hearts were darkened. Were in the light (baptism of the spirit and saved) and then fell away and turned to darkness (lost their light and their salvation).
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That is a straw man......two different words with two different meanings and two different applications cannot be compared to your cited example because Jesus is one....Son of God and Son of man....and to be honest, i am surprised at the frivilous way you disregard thilipsis and orge.....not very honest really bro!
That's where a part of the problem lay. Many OSAS people would say people who would do as you have described weren't really saved at all aren't circumcised in the heart or the Holy Spirit wouldn't allow them to do as you say. Kneeling at a cross or an alter and just saying the sinners prayer doesn't save anyone. If it doesn't come from the heart it's dung.
Nice try.....is that all you have? The numbers are based upon my own math and let us ALL GET SOMETHING STRAIT....I do not use nor have I used commentaries, nor do I bloviate another man's opinion.....When I post anything it is because I have studied it and this is what I believe based upon my understanding.....so...post like the above attempt to discredit are not only deceitful but false!
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The tragic truth.....there is an 8 to 1 ratio of verses that deal with the second coming compared to the 1st coming in the bible........one of the very verses that workers for use to teach a works based salvation that we fight against proves one of two things.....either the ingathering is POST TRIB or there is a SPLIT RAPTURE.....I CAN NEGATE THE LATTER by the words of Paul which proves there is no split rapture....and if no split rapture what Jesus states to his disciples in Matthew 24, luke 21 and Mark 13 can ONLY EQUATE to a post trib ingathering.....
HE THAT ENDURES UNTO THE END WILL BE SAVED<--PRESERVED, PROTECTED
ENDURES <-HAVING ENDURED
SAVED->>sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin –
the bible is clear and IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THISE DAYS IS CLEAR, the sun is still shining, the stars are still in the heaven and the moon is still giving her light!!!!!!!
The bible does not teach a pretribulation ingathering
HE THAT ENDURES UNTO THE END WILL BE SAVED<--PRESERVED, PROTECTED
ENDURES <-HAVING ENDURED
SAVED->>sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin –
the bible is clear and IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THISE DAYS IS CLEAR, the sun is still shining, the stars are still in the heaven and the moon is still giving her light!!!!!!!
The bible does not teach a pretribulation ingathering
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I haven't figured out the abacus yet
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