Why so much confusion about salvation?

[Studyman]

Sadly, he has already done that, thats why so many are confused, even when they think they know it.

Satan has been decieving man since the garden. And man keeps buying the same old story, over and over, a distorted gospel. Added with some self righteousness. And you may be saved, but be careful. Because if your not. You can lose your salvation. (Even thugh you coould never Earn your salvation to begin with) the greatest lie ever told. Yet people buy it continually.

Actually, according to the Word of God, this example of the first deception is an incredible tool to understand how the serpent deceives.

Gen. 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The serpent first convinced Eve that it knew God, that it knew God's Words. This is consistent with the theme through out the bible that it isn't Godless, heathens that caused God's people the most harm, but others who claim to know the same god as we do.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The next thing the serpent did was convince Eve that she was already saved. Already immortal. This is very important to understand this is how the serpent deceives. It make men think they have "Peace, Peace, when there is no people. The Bible also confirms this thoughout it's Words.

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Then it goes in for the kill. It convinces Eve that God's Instructions are against her. That He doesn't care for her. That he wants her to remain imprisoned by unjust commands, and to keep her "Burdened" and "Blind". And that if she would just listen to her new friend, he would "FREE her from the burdensome unjust instructions of a god who really doesn't care for her.

Of course God didn't create instructions impossible to follow, or instructions that would keep us blind and in prison. But there are a lot of religious people who believe just that.

Thanks be to the Messiah for spelling this deception out to us from the very beginning so we can be on guard for such preaching.

Praise Him whose Word's Last Forever.

 

[Slayer]

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What you are doing is improperly separating verses out from the whole context of the word. That's called un-rightly dividing the word of God. When taking the whole counsel of the word into consideration (which you are not doing) we can see that the verses you posted above apply to the person who is presently believing, not the person who never believed or who has stopped believing:

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"24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes (present tense) Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. "-John 5:24​

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"40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes (present tense) in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”-John 6:40​

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Consult any credible source and you'll see that 'believes' is in the present tense, which corresponds directly to our English present tense. The promise of eternal life is conditioned on present tense believing, and does not apply for past believing that has ceased. You have to be presently believing/trusting in Christ to have eternal life. You do not have eternal life if you are not presently believing. Which is what Paul also said here ('saved' and 'hold fast' are both in the present tense):

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved (present tense), if you hold fast (present tense) the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."-1 Corinthians 15:1-2

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John (who you quoted above) also echos this truth that you must remain in what you heard to be saved:

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"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:24

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...If you keep believing the word of the gospel. Even in Reformed Theology the promise of him finishing what he started is conditioned on you continuing to believe what you first heard. You should know this. In Reformed Theology the person who stops believing does not keep their salvation. Reformed Theology says they never had it in the first place. That's in stark contrast to what you and others are saying in this forum.

Yes, of' course all of the above verses are speaking to the present believers as you put it. We believe there is only one kind of believer and that is a true believer, we don't consider false believers as being believers at all.
We call them hypocrites and reprobate, because we believe salvation is of the Lord. He is the One who starts and finishes our salvation, so being infallible He won't fail.

The difference between our belief and yours is ours is of the Lord and yours is man made. Everything that man does is corrupt and unreliable, because we are fundamentally flawed. But everything God does is perfect and infallible. we put our trust in god, you put your trust in yourself!!!

 

[Ralph-]

Yes, of' course all of the above verses are speaking to the present believers as you put it. We believe there is only one kind of believer and that is a true believer, we don't consider false believers as being believers at all.
We call them hypocrites and reprobate, because we believe salvation is of the Lord. He is the One who starts and finishes our salvation, so being infallible He won't fail.

The difference between our belief and yours is ours is of the Lord and yours is man made. Everything that man does is corrupt and unreliable, because we are fundamentally flawed. But everything God does is perfect and infallible. we put our trust in god, you put your trust in yourself!!!

So which 'once saved always saved' are you?

Calvinist 'once saved always saved' which says true believers never fall away, or else they were never truly saved to begin with.

-or-

Freegrace 'once saved always saved' which says the true believer can stop believing and fall away and they are still saved no matter what.

 

[preston39]

Yes, of' course all of the above verses are speaking to the present believers as you put it. We believe there is only one kind of believer and that is a true believer, we don't consider false believers as being believers at all.
We call them hypocrites and reprobate, because we believe salvation is of the Lord. He is the One who starts and finishes our salvation, so being infallible He won't fail.

The difference between our belief and yours is ours is of the Lord and yours is man made. Everything that man does is corrupt and unreliable, because we are fundamentally flawed. But everything God does is perfect and infallible. we put our trust in god, you put your trust in yourself!!!

S...,

Christ will not fail, but, you and I may ....as weaklings.

Your feeble attempt to spin your position into Christ failing .....is reprehensible.
G-d does not fail us we fail Him.

 

[Slayer]

So which 'once saved always saved' are you?

Calvinist 'once saved always saved' which says true believers never fall away, or else they were never truly saved to begin with.

-or-

Freegrace 'once saved always saved' which says the true believer can stop believing and fall away and they are still saved no matter what.

I'm a Calvinist, because it's the most Biblically correct position

 

[Slayer]

S...,

Christ will not fail, but, you and I may ....as weaklings.

Your feeble attempt to spin your position into Christ failing .....is reprehensible.
G-d does not fail us we fail Him.

Speak for yourself, you fail Him. That's for sure but you can't speak for me.

 

[Ralph-]

I'm a Calvinist, because it's the most Biblically correct position

Then never say people who fall away from faith in Christ are still saved.

The person who falls away was either never saved to begin with, or has lost the salvation they once had. But in no way shape or form is a person who has stopped believing going to be saved when Jesus returns.

 

[preston39]

I'm a Calvinist, because it's the most Biblically correct position

S...,

Doesn't matter the denomination...it is pure... malarky ...and is not scriptural. The Bible in no way supports ..OSAS.

If so...why is number of times of forgiveness unlimited?
If so..would G-d really need a judgement day?
If so...why does the daily lord's prayer include......"forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"....

etc.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

S...,

Doesn't matter the denomination...it is pure... malarky ...and is not scriptural. The Bible in no way supports ..OSAS.

If so...why is number of times of forgiveness unlimited?
If so..would G-d really need a judgement day?
If so...why does the daily lord's prayer include......"forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"....

etc.

Why is number of times forgiveness unlimited? Answer= The sacrifice that Jesus made for God's chosen people was complete in securing redemption, and because of the redemption, God looks upon them as holy and without blame, as far as their eternal destination is concerned, and their sins are as far away as the east is from the west, however, when they are regenerated they still carry the baggage of their sinful fleshly nature with them, as witnessed by Paul's warfare inside of him, the flesh against the Spirit. Sometimes we lose the battle to our fleshly desires and have to repent for God's forgiveness. Would God really need a judgement day? Answer = The elect of God are judged, by God's chastening, as they live their lives here on earth and are not judged at the last day, but are told to enter into heaven. The non-elect are not chastened by God as they live their lives here on earth, but are judged at the last day. Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth. Those that he does not love, he does not chasten (Ps 73). Why does the daily Lord's prayer include..... "forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us".... Answer = My explanation of of the first question, I think, answers why we have to ask forgiveness. Not to secure our eternal destination, because that was finished on the cross. We try to obey God's commandments as best we can, but like Paul, our fleshly lusts draws us to sin.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Then never say people who fall away from faith in Christ are still saved.

The person who falls away was either never saved to begin with, or has lost the salvation they once had. But in no way shape or form is a person who has stopped believing going to be saved when Jesus returns.

People who are upholding eternal salvation by their works do not accept how depraved they are by their fleshly nature and limit the capability of the fact that God does accomplish all his will. Everyone that Jesus died for will live with him in heaven without the loss of even one (OSAS - John 6:37-39).

 

[Ralph-]

People who are upholding eternal salvation by their works do not accept how depraved they are by their fleshly nature and limit the capability of the fact that God does accomplish all his will. Everyone that Jesus died for will live with him in heaven without the loss of even one (OSAS - John 6:37-39).

Who's talking about upholding eternal salvation by works????

You have to keep BELIEVING to keep being saved.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Who's talking about upholding eternal salvation by works????

You have to keep BELIEVING to keep being saved.

You did not respond to John 6:37-39, why?

 

[BenFTW]

Who's talking about upholding eternal salvation by works????

You have to keep BELIEVING to keep being saved.

Wouldn't you say that true believers, those that are His, even if they fall away for a period of time will return by His long-suffering and divine intervention? If He doesn't lose one of His, and they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, a guarantee of what is to come, they must return. God doesn't make mistakes.

 

[preston39]

Wouldn't you say that true believers, those that are His, even if they fall away for a period of time will return by His long-suffering and divine intervention? If He doesn't lose one of His, and they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, a guarantee of what is to come, they must return. God doesn't make mistakes.

B...,

I don't believe that necessarily to be the case....that they would return.

We must keep ...free will..in mind when we are looking at people...maintaining until the end...righteousness. It is an individual choice and while G-d...thru the Holy Spirit....assist and urges us......there is no compulsion involved or intended.

 

[Slayer]

Then never say people who fall away from faith in Christ are still saved.

The person who falls away was either never saved to begin with, or has lost the salvation they once had. But in no way shape or form is a person who has stopped believing going to be saved when Jesus returns.

Calvinists believe that no true believer ever falls away or stops believing. Even if they commit murder or adultery, they still believe band they are not lost. All they need to do is repent and they are forgiven, but they were never lost.

Anyone who loses their salvation for an y reason, was never saved in the first place because salvation is of the Lord it has nothing to do with us or what we do or don't do. The works gospel is not Biblical, it's another gospel. We say it's the doctrine of Demons

 

[Slayer]

S...,

Doesn't matter the denomination...it is pure... malarky ...and is not scriptural. The Bible in no way supports ..OSAS.

If so...why is number of times of forgiveness unlimited?
If so..would G-d really need a judgement day?
If so...why does the daily lord's prayer include......"forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"....

etc.

My Reformed Baptist Church is non denominational, so nobody can impose doctrines of Demons on us. Our only authority is Christ and His Word. We believe the Bible, you obviously deny the truth and you have embraced the doctrine of Demons if you believe that God fails when He sets out to save a person.

Salvation is of the Lord, the Bible is crystal clear about that fact. So the only way a saved person can lose their salvation is if God fails and the only ones who teach that God fails are Demons.

You first need to believe what God has said, then you can move forward and start learning the truth. You will remain in darkness while you believe in man and fallen angels.

How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.

– Ps 65:4

The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.

– Prov 16:4

And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

– Mt 24:31

now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

– Luke 18:7

So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,

And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.

– Acts 15:17-18

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

– Romans 8:28- 30

Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

– Rom 8:33

for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

– Romans 9:11

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

– Romans 9:15-16 (the whole chapter)

God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

– Rom 11:2

In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

– Romans 11:5-7

but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

– 1 Cor 2:7

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…

also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

– Ephesians 1:5,11

knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;

– 1 Thes 1:4

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

– 2 Thes 2:13

Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

– Titus 1:1

according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

– 1 Peter 1:2

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

– Rev 13:8

Aren’t some of these so obvious??

 

[Ralph-]

You did not respond to John 6:37-39, why?

Is Christ's perfect and unfailing ministry supposed to somehow prove once saved always saved?

Does God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Timothy 2:4) always get his way thus proving that 'once saved always saved' is true?

 

[Ralph-]

Wouldn't you say that true believers, those that are His, even if they fall away for a period of time will return by His long-suffering and divine intervention? If He doesn't lose one of His, and they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, a guarantee of what is to come, they must return. God doesn't make mistakes.

Where are the scriptures that say God does not mistakes and that all true believers come back?

Did you not know or did you forget that 'once saved always saved' used to teach that if you left you weren't truly saved in the first place? That Calvinist belief (the 'P' in TULIP) seems to have been discarded by the church in these last few years.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I believe most of us would agree that there is a great deal of confusion about salvation, even though God has made it very simple.

The primary reason for all this confusion is the enmity of Satan and his evil angels against God and against humanity. The Devil desires all human being to go to Hell, since he knows it was created for him and his angels.

There is really no need to be confused when we take the total Gospel message and simply believe it. When someone comes along with another gospel, we should ask them a few questions, to which all the answers are "Yes" (according to Scripture):

1. Did Christ die for the sins of the whole world?

2. Does God desire the salvation of all humanity?

3. Are repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ sufficient to be saved?

4. Is water baptism only for believers and is it a command to every Christian?

5. Does baptism signify that the sinner has died to self and sin, and is totally submitted to God?

6. Is eternal life God's gift to the one who believes?

7. Is the Holy Spirit God's gift to the one who believes?

8. Does salvation include the New Birth, which means that the individual is a new creature in Christ?

10. Are believers predestined and elected to be perfected and glorified?

11. Does that mean that Christians must forsake the ways of the world, and walk in the Spirit by faith?

12. Does salvation include justification, sanctification, and glorification, and are Christians kept by the power of God unto the completion of this salvation?

1. No. All that Christ died for will go to heaven, without the loss of even one. (John 37-39) 2. No. God accomplishes all of his will and number one answers number 2. (Dan4:35) 3. No. All of man's actions put together is not sufficient enough to get eternal life. Not of works,lest any man should boast. 4. I will give you a "Yes" on this one, but it is not the cause of our eternal salvation. 5. No. Baptism is a commandment to his children to, in like manner, commemorating Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection . 6. No. Eternal life is God's free gift to God's elect, even if some do not believe. John 2:47, If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world (of the elect), but to save the world (of the elect). 7. No. The Holy Spirit is given when a person is regenerated when they were still "DEAD IN SINS" and unable to believe. (1 Cor 2:14 and Eph 2:5). 8. No. Eternal salvation was a finished work of Jesus"s sacrifice on the cross. We are born again when God regenerates us (Eph 2:5) sometime after we are born by natural birth. 10. No. Believing has nothing to do with our election and predestination. Those that God choose (Eph 1:4) before the foundation of the world are recipients of predestination, election, justification, glorification. 11. No. God has commanded us to do so, but Jesus was the only one that could. 12. I will have to give you a "Yes" on this one. You left out adoption, God choose us, Jesus paid the adoption price and the final phase of the adoption is when Christ comes and takes us home.

 

[Ralph-]

Calvinists believe that no true believer ever falls away or stops believing. Even if they commit murder or adultery, they still believe band they are not lost. All they need to do is repent and they are forgiven, but they were never lost.

Anyone who loses their salvation for an y reason, was never saved in the first place because salvation is of the Lord it has nothing to do with us or what we do or don't do.

John disagrees with your quasi-Calvinist view.

"9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."-1 John 3:9

If you practice sin after being saved you are showing yourself to no longer be saved. What license does the believer/ex-believer have that makes it so the above verses, and many others, do not apply to him?

The works gospel is not Biblical, it's another gospel. We say it's the doctrine of Demons

Who's talking about the works gospel? I'm talking about the believer continuing to believe in order to continue to be saved. That's not the works gospel. Trusting in Christ is not a work of the works gospel.