Why so much confusion about salvation?

[Endoscopy]

Oops.
Duplicate post.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If they continue to believe.

That's a given.

There are no 'ifs', 'ands' and 'buts' in God's salvation. However, it is Satan who sows seeds of doubt and confusion.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Basic gospel message.

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.

James 2 states that faith without works is dead. Therefore while works doesn't save the lack of them says no faith in Jesus. Jesus put it "By their fruits you shall know them." He pointed this out in a warning about wolves in sheep's clothing.

Could you please answer my question?


Do you know what happens to one of His sheep who wanders from Him because they stop hearing His Voice?


They become lost!


Do the lost need to be saved?


JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

That's a given.

There are no 'ifs', 'ands' and 'buts' in God's salvation. However, it is Satan who sows seeds of doubt and confusion.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


There are many who claim a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes is still saved.


Are you one of those?



JPT

 

[Ralph-]

Here is the revelant verses. I use NIV for normal reading and AMPC for study since it gives all of the meanings of the original language words. Note the ones objecting are using works for salvation not grace.

Matthew 7

NIV
True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

AMPC
21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].
24 So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a [p]sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.
25 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
26 And everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not do them will be like a stupid (foolish) man who built his house upon the sand.
27 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell—and great and complete was the fall of it.
True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

The issue here is not that these people have been working the righteous works of the law to earn salvation (that's the definition of the works gospel). They aren't doing works to be saved. We know that because Jesus calls them lawless.

In context you can see that the issue is they do not have the righteous works of the law of the believing person to be the house that will not fall in the coming Judgment. The passage has nothing to do with people doing righteous works of the law thinking that earns them right standing with God (they haven't been doing those), but certainly we see that they will out of desperation try to use their ministry activities to somehow convince Jesus they know him in salvation and should enter into the kingdom.

Perhaps you've noticed this describes these last days generations of church goers very well. They get involved in all kinds of church activities and ministries--witnessing, teaching Bible studies, etc.-- thinking they are 'ok' with Jesus because they are doing those things but they are living immoral, disobedient, lawless lives at home, all in the name of grace. Well, they have a rude awakening coming. They're going to find out the hard way that the faith that is alone (absent of obedience) is in fact the faith that can not save them, just as James said. No amount of association with Christ through church activities and ministries is going to save them when they stand before Christ. He warned us ahead of time so we can have the faith that works and won't be among them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why confusing?

1. They do nto understand what salvation is
2. They do not understand when a person is saved
3. They do not understand how a person is saved.

Because of all the differeing views, it is no wonder people are confused.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Could you please answer my question?


Do you know what happens to one of His sheep who wanders from Him because they stop hearing His Voice?


They become lost!


Do the lost need to be saved?


JPT

Jesus - I leave the flock, to go find the one lost sheep. My sheep know my voice and they follow

A sheep is stupid. Thats why it keeps wondering off and why the master has to go find it. But at the same time, A sheep knows its master it does not forget its masters voice. If it does not follow it was never the masters sheep.

 

[Endoscopy]

The issue here is not that these people have been working the righteous works of the law to earn salvation (that's the definition of the works gospel). They aren't doing works to be saved. We know that because Jesus calls them lawless.

In context you can see that the issue is they do not have the righteous works of the law of the believing person to be the house that will not fall in the coming Judgment. The passage has nothing to do with people doing righteous works of the law thinking that earns them right standing with God (they haven't been doing those), but certainly we see that they will out of desperation try to use their ministry activities to somehow convince Jesus they know him in salvation and should enter into the kingdom.

Perhaps you've noticed this describes these last days generations of church goers very well. They get involved in all kinds of church activities and ministries--witnessing, teaching Bible studies, etc.-- thinking they are 'ok' with Jesus because they are doing those things but they are living immoral, disobedient, lawless lives at home, all in the name of grace. Well, they have a rude awakening coming. They're going to find out the hard way that the faith that is alone (absent of obedience) is in fact the faith that can not save them, just as James said. No amount of association with Christ through church activities and ministries is going to save them when they stand before Christ. He warned us ahead of time so we can have the faith that works and won't be among them.

That is the problem with works based salvation. Our best works are as filthy rags to God. Thus our only hope is grace through faith in Jesus. Grace is a free unearned and undeserved gift to us for accepting Jesus as our savior. He thus imputes to us his sin free nature. We really have earned hell instead but grace rescues us from that deserved place. Thank God for that.

 

[Endoscopy]

Jesus - I leave the flock, to go find the one lost sheep. My sheep know my voice and they follow

A sheep is stupid. Thats why it keeps wondering off and why the master has to go find it. But at the same time, A sheep knows its master it does not forget its masters voice. If it does not follow it was never the masters sheep.

It is obvious you have never been on a farm with sheep. Some go their own way. Most stay together. It then becomes the shepherds job to find and bring back the lost sheep. Today shepherds have trained dogs to help them. One shepherd and a couple of dogs can handle moving a flock of sheep.

 

[justpassinthrough]

It then becomes the shepherds job to find and bring back the lost sheep.

Which is exactly what Jesus was teaching His disciples.


James says it this way -


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20



if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,



he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.



JPT

 

[Slayer]

That's not what Reformed Theology teaches.

I've been amazed at how many Reformers are embracing the new 'once saved always saved' theology.

One has to trample over piles of scriptures to ignore that OSAS is a Biblical fact

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A Sinner according to John has never known or seen God.

1 John 3: Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

So of course, turning him or her from their ways to christ would save a soul. Because it would lead them to grace.

Don’t be fooled by some who wish to turn Gods Grace into a non existent enity which according to them does not save, replacing it with our human works (human good)

 

[Ralph-]

One has to trample over piles of scriptures to ignore that OSAS is a Biblical fact

Show me.

 

[Ralph-]

A Sinner according to John has never known or seen God.

1 John 3: Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

You post this, yet you won't resist anybody who believes in Freegrace 'once saved always saved' that says you can go back to unbelief and you are still saved.

But anyway, remain born again through a continuing faith in Christ and the promises that only born again people are entitled to will continue to be yours.

So of course, turning him or her from their ways to christ would save a soul. Because it would lead them to grace.

Don’t be fooled by some who wish to turn Gods Grace into a non existent enity which according to them does not save, replacing it with our human works (human good)

You say this but when someone else says it who doesn't believe in 'once saved always saved' it can only mean they are pushing a works gospel.

 

[Slayer]

Show me.

The Bible makes it clear that we can never lose our salvation my dear friend.

Related to this, there are two key verses, John 10:28-29, that would be good to remember. Here the Lord Jesus said of His sheep,

Eph, 1:4-5
“And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.​

This is what John 6:37 & 39 have to say about our eternal salvation,

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and him who comes to Me I shall by no means cast out…And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up in the last day.”​

“Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.”

“Lord, we praise You for giving us Your eternal life. Thank you, that as those who have been born of You, we can never be un-born. We are God’s children forever. Praise you, that Your strong hands are firmly holding us. Thank you that Your promise to keep us and not cast us out assures us that our salvation is secure. Praise You, dear Lord!”

There, I hope you would give these scriptures some serious consideration. The Bible tells us that salvation is of the Lord, He will finish the work He stared. If our salvation was in our hands, then Satan would outsmart us and cause us to lose it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Bible makes it clear that we can never lose our salvation my dear friend.

Related to this, there are two key verses, John 10:28-29, that would be good to remember. Here the Lord Jesus said of His sheep,

Eph, 1:4-5​

“And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.​

This is what John 6:37 & 39 have to say about our eternal salvation,

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and him who comes to Me I shall by no means cast out…And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up in the last day.”​

“Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.”

“Lord, we praise You for giving us Your eternal life. Thank you, that as those who have been born of You, we can never be un-born. We are God’s children forever. Praise you, that Your strong hands are firmly holding us. Thank you that Your promise to keep us and not cast us out assures us that our salvation is secure. Praise You, dear Lord!”

There, I hope you would give these scriptures some serious consideration. The Bible tells us that salvation is of the Lord, He will finish the work He stared. If our salvation was in our hands, then Satan would outsmart us and cause us to lose it.

Sadly, he has already done that, thats why so many are confused, even when they think they know it.

Satan has been decieving man since the garden. And man keeps buying the same old story, over and over, a distorted gospel. Added with some self righteousness. And you may be saved, but be careful. Because if your not. You can lose your salvation. (Even thugh you coould never Earn your salvation to begin with) the greatest lie ever told. Yet people buy it continually.

 

[Ralph-]

The Bible makes it clear that we can never lose our salvation my dear friend.

Related to this, there are two key verses, John 10:28-29, that would be good to remember. Here the Lord Jesus said of His sheep,

Eph, 1:4-5​

“And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.​

This is what John 6:37 & 39 have to say about our eternal salvation,

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and him who comes to Me I shall by no means cast out…And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up in the last day.”​

​

​

What you are doing is improperly separating verses out from the whole context of the word. That's called un-rightly dividing the word of God. When taking the whole counsel of the word into consideration (which you are not doing) we can see that the verses you posted above apply to the person who is presently believing, not the person who never believed or who has stopped believing:

​

"24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes (present tense) Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. "-John 5:24​

​

"40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes (present tense) in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”-John 6:40​

​

Consult any credible source and you'll see that 'believes' is in the present tense, which corresponds directly to our English present tense. The promise of eternal life is conditioned on present tense believing, and does not apply for past believing that has ceased. You have to be presently believing/trusting in Christ to have eternal life. You do not have eternal life if you are not presently believing. Which is what Paul also said here ('saved' and 'hold fast' are both in the present tense):

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved (present tense), if you hold fast (present tense) the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."-1 Corinthians 15:1-2

​

John (who you quoted above) also echos this truth that you must remain in what you heard to be saved:

​

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:24

​

​

The Bible tells us that salvation is of the Lord, He will finish the work He stared.

...If you keep believing the word of the gospel. Even in Reformed Theology the promise of him finishing what he started is conditioned on you continuing to believe what you first heard. You should know this. In Reformed Theology the person who stops believing does not keep their salvation. Reformed Theology says they never had it in the first place. That's in stark contrast to what you and others are saying in this forum.

 

[LW97]

​

What you are doing is improperly separating verses out from the whole context of the word. That's called un-rightly dividing the word of God. When taking the whole counsel of the word into consideration (which you are not doing) we can see that the verses you posted above apply to the person who is presently believing, not the person who never believed or who has stopped believing:

​

"24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes (present tense) Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. "-John 5:24​

​

"40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes (present tense) in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”-John 6:40​

​

Consult any credible source and you'll see that 'believes' is in the present tense, which corresponds directly to our English present tense. The promise of eternal life is conditioned on present tense believing, and does not apply for past believing that has ceased. You have to be presently believing/trusting in Christ to have eternal life. You do not have eternal life if you are not presently believing. Which is what Paul also said here ('saved' and 'hold fast' are both in the present tense):

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved (present tense), if you hold fast (present tense) the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."-1 Corinthians 15:1-2

​

John (who you quoted above) also echos this truth that you must remain in what you heard to be saved:

​

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:24

​

​

...If you keep believing the word of the gospel. Even in Reformed Theology the promise of him finishing what he started is conditioned on you continuing to believe what you first heard. You should know this. In Reformed Theology the person who stops believing does not keep their salvation. Reformed Theology says they never had it in the first place. That's in stark contrast to what you and others are saying in this forum.

Ever read 1 John 2:19? That has zero to do with Calvinism but with biblical truth

 

[Ralph-]

Ever read 1 John 2:19? That has zero to do with Calvinism but with biblical truth

Actually, it has a lot to do with Calvinist 'once saved always saved'. In that version you don't get to keep your salvation if you fall away because it uses that verse to say you never had it to begin with if you fall away. But in these last few years we now have this ugly step sister of Calvin's 'once saved always saved' doctrine where in one argument a person will use 1 John 2:19 to show that true believers never fall away and so in that way you can never lose your salvation, but then in the next argument that same person will use a passage like 2 Timothy 2:13 to show you can't lose your salvation if you fall away:

"13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."-2 Timothy 2:13

So you can see how completely inconsistent that is with how they interpret 1 John 2:19...

"19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."-1 John 2:19

But it seems that no one in either flavor of these completely contradictory 'once saved always saved' doctrines cares that they utterly contradict each other, just as long as 'once saved always saved' is being defended.

 

[Deade]

No one can snatch us from Christ. God will not abandon us and the devil will not trick us out of our salvation. We can call ourselves saved, but until we are resurrected immortal is is yet a future event. So when we say we are saved we are prophesying the future. God does this also and He does not mind us doing so.

What we can do is give up on ourselves, and find ourselves not bearing the fruit of the spirit.

Luke 9:62 "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."