OSAS= House Built on Sand

[Slayer]

Funny!

You gave me some verses that you think prove OSAS and I am asking how they say that "once a person is saved they are always saved"?
They say that the person who is believing in Jesus Christ is secure. They don't say that once a person at a point in time has put their faith in Jesus Christ that they will always be believing in Jesus Christ and they because they put their faith in Jesus Christ at a point in time that that means they will automatically go to heaven even if they become an atheistic mongrel ten time worse than Hitler.

All of those scriptures speak about a saved person. i see you don't believe the Bible doctrine of election and predestination and your unbelief has led you to confusion, anger and frustration. I know how you feel, I was once there myself but the Lord opened my spiritual eyes and now I believe the the Bible is the true Word of God.

No predestined elect Saint of God will ever commit sins like Hitler, so we can safely toss that thought in the trash can. Us Saints of God were saved before the foundation of the world, but we didn't know it until we heard the Gospel. When us predestined elect Saints of God hear the Gospel, we respond by believing it and it converts us from living as a sinner to a Saint of God.

The process of sanctification takes some time so we don't suddenly become perfect, that happens at Gods appointed time. In the mean time we continue to fall into sin every day but we know we are forgiven before we even commit the sin, because Christ paid for all of our past present and future sins.

Not all of us have a radical conversion, most of us experience our conversion as a gradual change so to answer your question of what particular moment we are saved at is not relevant as we were saved before we were created, but we don't cash in on the gift until we hear the Gospel and believe then it changes us gradually.

My conversion is an ongoing process, I am a saved Saint of God but I have't received my incorruptible sinless body yet. That will happen when this life ends and I step into eternal paradise.

 

[Slayer]

The promises also don't belong to the person who has stopped believing, not just the person who never believed.

I see it differently, we believe that the work of salvation is done by God from start to finish. So we know that God never fails in anything He sets out to do, so we say the "unbeliever" never truly believed. They may have made a profession of faith and even showed all of the outward signs of a true believer, but they were unbelievers inwardly.

 

[Slayer]

Temptation is not sin. If it was then Jesus is not the perfect Lamb of God.

It's what we do with the tempting thought that determines if that temptation will become sin.

I believe I sinned for a second or two before I repented and rebuked myself for focusing on that woman. I should have controlled my eyes and not focus on her for a second. The main thing is, I repented immediately and continued on my way knowing that God forgave me because He is faithful to forgive His children when they repent.

Every time we wrestle against our flesh and win, we get a little stronger so the next time we are confronted with that same temptation we are able to get the victory over it because we remember how we lost the last time. The idea is to become more like Christ every day, that's how we grow.

 

[Slayer]

S...,
That is not the way things work in the debateing world;
When you present a position you must present support........in this case scripture. You cannot conclude and then expect opposition to present opposing proof.
That's nuts.
So far, the references I have seen you and other OSAS thinkers present gives no support to the OSAS conclusion. At best it lends itself to G-d's plan of forgiveness.

I did provide many scriptures which say that a saved person cannot lose their salvation. The Bible doesn't use baby language, the Bible was written for believers. It has nothing to say to the unbelievers, it is foolishness to the reprobate so there's no point in debating with the reprobate. But since we don't know who the reprobate are, we must treat everyone as if they are saved.

Just go to my earlier posts and you will see many scriptures which speak to true believers and they all reassure the true believer that they cannot lose their salvation.

 

[Slayer]

Amen.

It's very rare to come across brothers who believe and accept what the Bible says and not add their own view to the scriptures. The Bible interprets itself perfectly if we apply the whole counsel of God to scripture in general.
I find most folks here pluck out a few verses and create a whole new doctrine out of them. The ignore the passages which debunk their theory and they gather unrelated verses to build their straw man.

 

[preston39]

I did provide many scriptures which say that a saved person cannot lose their salvation. ........there's no point in debating with the reprobate......

S...,
Haven't seen one yet. There is no scriptures in The Bible which supports your/the OSAS position.
What about usurping G-d's authority to pass judgement...you haven't even attempted to respond to that one...neither has anyone else of your belief.
That is telling, for sure.
Your theory about reprobates is miss applied. I don't consider you a reprobate even though you fail to understand scriptures properly I would not refer to you as one.

 

[preston39]

It's very rare to come across brothers who believe and accept what the Bible says and not add their own view to the scriptures. The Bible interprets itself perfectly if we apply the whole counsel of God to scripture in general.
I find most folks here pluck out a few verses and create a whole new doctrine out of them. The ignore the passages which debunk their theory and they gather unrelated verses to build their straw man.

S...,

Yes S and you are one of them...on this OSAS topic.

 

[Slayer]

Are you kidding? That's when you need to look for the escape ... or perhaps you prefer to check out the exposed flesh for a while to satisfy your lust and then ask for forgiveness later?

Is that satisfying of the flesh really worth leaving the fellowship with the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ?





I think you need to read the verse again: whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart (Matt 5:28).

I believe that is the verse you refer to in your post.

In your post, you state you "quickly behold her". In Matt 5:28, Jesus said looketh on a woman to lust after her. That entails more than just a glance. The sin occurs if/when you keep staring to the point where you lust after her.





Nothing wrong with honking the horn. There is something wrong with yelling obscenities. That behavior is indicative of a lack of self-control.

James 3:8 tells us no man can tame his tongue. However, what we can do is not allow our hearts to be turned from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. When our hearts are turned to Him, our mouths will speak of the good treasure He places within.

The next time someone cuts you off, try praying for him or her. Prayer is so beneficial to us and it is such an underutilized method of bringing resolution to a situation.

That's good advice about how to handle traffic incidents, but I would argue against the first part of your comment regarding committing adultery. I never stared at the woman for long enough to get to the point of lusting after her, I actually fought against the temptation to lust after her.

The process of lusting had begun but I fought against it so I still committed adultery for a second but I quickly repented and I was forgiven just as quickly.

I'm glad that the Lord is merciful enough to forgive me for any sin I commit, I know that the Lord would forgive me if I murdered someone or if I committed adultery with a friends wife. Jesus paid for all of my past, present and future sins. Every elect Saint of God will continue to sin until we die but the difference between us and other sinners is we are forgiven sinners and they are not.

 

[Slayer]

S...,
Haven't seen one yet. There is no scriptures in The Bible which supports your/the OSAS position.
What about usurping G-d's authority to pass judgement...you haven't even attempted to respond to that one...neither has anyone else of your belief.
That is telling, for sure.
Your theory about reprobates is miss applied. I don't consider you a reprobate even though you fail to understand scriptures properly I would not refer to you as one.

Of' course there's no scripture with the magical power to make a unbeliever believe. The problem is you don't believe what Jesus said, you twist His Words to make the fit your false narrow view.

Who do you think Jesus is talking about when He says things like. I shall give them eternal life, they shall never perish and neither will anyone pluck them out of my hand. That is very plain and simply language, it's speaking about the elect of God. They shall be given eternal life and they will never perish and nobody can take them away from me, Then you come along and say, they shall not be given eternal life and they will be destroyed and the Devil can steal them from God.

Can you see how pathetic your position is??? the Devil wants you to believe that Jesus lied and you can come to Him because Jesus doesn't want you to have this special knowledge that the Devil offers. Why else wouldn't you believe what Jesus promised?

• John 6:39, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."

John 6:37 “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

John 10:28 “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

John 11:25–26 “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

Romans 8:31–33 “What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.”

Romans 8:35–39 “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

1 Peter 1:5 “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1Cor15:1 [blb] -

"Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel that I [Paul] proclaimed to you, which also you received, in which you also stand [perfect indicative active],"


I don't think they/we "stand" in it until after we "received" it (and that is after it is "proclaimed"... how shall they hear?)


[2Cor11:2 "I [Paul] have betrothed you [corporate, plural 'you'] to ONE Husband A CHASTE VIRGIN [singular]…"]

 

[LW97]

16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardlywe are being renewed day by day. 17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

amen sir, you proofed my point

 

[LW97]

I do not think that I misunderstood you. . . You said that "a true Christian will never go back to his old life". I asked you if "you have the moral capability within yourself to turn away from God and go your own way?"

For myself, I know that though I am a believer in Christ, I have the moral capability within myself to turn away from God and go my own way. I agree that a Christian can sin horribly, but that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about consciously and purposefully choosing to reject Christ and ongoingly go my own way. It is the grace of God that keeps me saved! Hallelujah!

amen

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I never stared at the woman for long enough to get to the point of lusting after her, I actually fought against the temptation to lust after her.

The process of lusting had begun but I fought against it so I still committed adultery for a second but I quickly repented and I was forgiven just as quickly.

In your Post #2,358 you stated the woman "just appears in your line of sight and your eyes quickly behold her".

In your Post #2,388 you stated you "never stared at the woman for long enough to get to the point of lusting after her".

The fight against the temptation to lust is not the same as having "looked on her long enough to lust after her" as shown in Matt 5:28 where Jesus said looketh on a woman to lust after her. To look on a woman to lust after her entails more than just a glance. The sin occurs if/when you keep staring to the point where you lust after her.


James 1:

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Please note that it is not a sin to be tempted. In fact, the one who endures the temptation without falling into sin is said to be blessed (James 1:12).

 

[Slayer]

In your Post #2,358 you stated the woman "just appears in your line of sight and your eyes quickly behold her".

In your Post #2,388 you stated you "never stared at the woman for long enough to get to the point of lusting after her".

The fight against the temptation to lust is not the same as having "looked on her long enough to lust after her" as shown in Matt 5:28 where Jesus said looketh on a woman to lust after her. To look on a woman to lust after her entails more than just a glance. The sin occurs if/when you keep staring to the point where you lust after her.


James 1:

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Please note that it is not a sin to be tempted. In fact, the one who endures the temptation without falling into sin is said to be blessed (James 1:12).

Our predisposition is to sin in a split second, a converted persons life is a constant battle against our flesh and mind so we are always trying to do the opposite to what comes naturally. So we do commit adultery in that moment before we look away, even if it's half a second it's still sin.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So we do commit adultery in that moment before we look away, even if it's half a second it's still sin.

So when you stated in Post #2,388 that you "never stared at the woman for long enough to get to the point of lusting after her" and that you "actually fought against the temptation to lust after her" you were not truthful?

According to Jesus, the momentary glance is not what He is talking about. Jesus is talking about a prolonged glance, a gaze to the point where you lust after her.

You claim that the woman comes into your line of sight for a brief moment and you look away. You "actually fought the temptation to lust after her" which means you did not lust after her.

So ... did you lust after her?

Or were you successful in fighting the temptation?

Since you consider what you did a sin in accordance with Matt 5:28, we must conclude that you looked longer than momentarily (or "half a second"), and you lusted after her.

 

[Slayer]

So when you stated in Post #2,388 that you "never stared at the woman for long enough to get to the point of lusting after her" and that you "actually fought against the temptation to lust after her" you were not truthful?

According to Jesus, the momentary glance is not what He is talking about. Jesus is talking about a prolonged glance, a gaze to the point where you lust after her.

You claim that the woman comes into your line of sight for a brief moment and you look away. You "actually fought the temptation to lust after her" which means you did not lust after her.

So ... did you lust after her?

Or were you successful in fighting the temptation?

Since you consider what you did a sin in accordance with Matt 5:28, we must conclude that you looked longer than momentarily (or "half a second"), and you lusted after her.

I just asked my pastor about it and you are dead wrong and so am I. We are guilty of adultery before we look at a woman with lust, the guilt is in the fact that we are capable of committing it ie. looking long enough etc.

Whether we looked long enough or not is not the issue, God sees out heart and he can see murder and lust in our hearts. He knows that, given the right circumstances we would succumb to those sins.

So God know exactly what we would do if we were given the perfect opportunity, just because we don't act out every single sin that enters our minds doesn't mean that we wouldn't if that opportunity visited us at our weakest point. So if the thought police existed we would be guilty of far more sins than we are willing to admit now, but God is the thought police. He can see every lust and desire, so it's no use trying to hide who we are.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I just asked my pastor about it and you are dead wrong and so am I. We are guilty of adultery before we look at a woman with lust, the guilt is in the fact that we are capable of committing it ie. looking long enough etc.

Whether we looked long enough or not is not the issue, God sees out heart and he can see murder and lust in our hearts. He knows that, given the right circumstances we would succumb to those sins.

Even Jesus did not state what your pastor says. Jesus said whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her (Matt 5:28).

Please note that Jesus did not say because "we are capable of committing it ie. looking long enough etc." we are guilty of adultery.

Jesus makes distinction between a momentary glance and a lingering gaze.


I'll stick with Jesus on this one.




[quote=Slayer]So God know exactly what we would do if we were given the perfect opportunity, just because we don't act out every single sin that enters our minds doesn't mean that we wouldn't if that opportunity visited us at our weakest point. So if the thought police existed we would be guilty of far more sins than we are willing to admit now, but God is the thought police. He can see every lust and desire, so it's no use trying to hide who we are.[/QUOTE]
So then you did look at the woman longer than you indicated, you didn't fight the temptation, you did lust after her, and in Post #2,358 ad Post #2,388, you've compounded your sin by lying about it.

 

[Slayer]

Even Jesus did not state what your pastor says. Jesus said whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her (Matt 5:28).

Please note that Jesus did not say because "we are capable of committing it ie. looking long enough etc." we are guilty of adultery.

Jesus makes distinction between a momentary glance and a lingering gaze.


I'll stick with Jesus on this one.




[quote=Slayer]So God know exactly what we would do if we were given the perfect opportunity, just because we don't act out every single sin that enters our minds doesn't mean that we wouldn't if that opportunity visited us at our weakest point. So if the thought police existed we would be guilty of far more sins than we are willing to admit now, but God is the thought police. He can see every lust and desire, so it's no use trying to hide who we are.

So then you did look at the woman longer than you indicated, you didn't fight the temptation, you did lust after her, and in Post #2,358 ad Post #2,388, you've compounded your sin by lying about it.


[/QUOTE]
you didn't understand what Jesus said, He said if you look at a woman to lust after her you have committed adultery. This suggests that the lust is already there and all you did was look at the woman and that automatically constitutes adultery.

Jesus didn't mention anything about the length of time it takes for that looking to become adultery. He said if you look at her, not if you look at her for more than 5 seconds etc. You always twist scripture to suit your fallen sinful condition

 

[reneweddaybyday]

you didn't understand what Jesus said, He said if you look at a woman to lust after her you have committed adultery.

I understand what Jesus taught.

Jesus said the person who looketh on a woman to lust after her. You see and then you lust because of what you see. That is sin.

According to you, the woman "appears in your line of sight", you "quickly behold her", and you "never stared at the woman for long enough to get to the point of lusting after her". You claim that is sin.

I will go with what Jesus actually stated ... that you looked and then you lusted because of what you saw.

This suggests that the lust is already there and all you did was look at the woman and that automatically constitutes adultery.

For you to claim that your momentary glance was sin means that you did more than look. Your look was more than just "quickly behold her" and your statement that you "never stared at the woman for long enough to get to the point of lusting after her" is misleading. You looked and you lusted.

Jesus didn't mention anything about the length of time it takes for that looking to become adultery. He said if you look at her, not if you look at her for more than 5 seconds etc.

Jesus said whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her.

To look and to lust after her is the sin. For you to claim you sinned, you did more than "never stared at the woman for long enough to get to the point of lusting after her".

You always twist scripture to suit your fallen sinful condition

From what you've posted concerning this matter, it appears you're the one who goes around "looking" and "lusting" ...

 

[Slayer]

I understand what Jesus taught.

Jesus said the person who looketh on a woman to lust after her. You see and then you lust because of what you see. That is sin.

According to you, the woman "appears in your line of sight", you "quickly behold her", and you "never stared at the woman for long enough to get to the point of lusting after her". You claim that is sin.

I will go with what Jesus actually stated ... that you looked and then you lusted because of what you saw.





For you to claim that your momentary glance was sin means that you did more than look. Your look was more than just "quickly behold her" and your statement that you "never stared at the woman for long enough to get to the point of lusting after her" is misleading. You looked and you lusted.





Jesus said whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her.

To look and to lust after her is the sin. For you to claim you sinned, you did more than "never stared at the woman for long enough to get to the point of lusting after her".





From what you've posted concerning this matter, it appears you're the one who goes around "looking" and "lusting" ...

My pastor explained our condition perfectly well, he said we are all murderers and adulterers in God's sight. Just because we don't act out the actual deed, it doesn't mean we are not.

The problem is we use our fallen sinful standard to judge ourselves, but we should see ourselves the way God see's us. God see's the seeds of murder and adultery in all of our hearts, all those seeds need it the right conditions and they will germinate.

I know you and 95% of professing Christians deny the bible doctrine of total depravity of mankind, as such you will always make excuses for sin and add your conditions to what constitutes sin. we should seek to understand sin in it's true context as God see's it.