Can anyone help me understand these verses?

[Waggles]

That goes against what Jesus said.

None of the usual verses cited by once saved always saved adherents prove or uphold the doctrine
of a disciple not losing their salvation ...
you lot misread and misunderstand the scriptures to promote your error.
The gospels and the epistles clearly unequivocally warn of the dangers of backsliding, falling away,
losing faith, departing from the truth, being shipwrecked, etc, etc, etc.
Jesus even states openly for all to read that he can remove a person's name out from the Book of Life.

 

[dcontroversal]

You lot......hilarious....and we could just as easily say that "THE LOT" that believes salvation can be lost have gotten that from the religions you embrace and not scripture. Yes the bible warns the believer because GOD CHASTENS his children, not CAST them away. We could also say that you serve a weak, inept god that lies, is deceptive and does not keep his word or promises, would that be fair based upon the following?

The following truths must be rejected to embrace a salvation that can be lost like a coin on the street that rolls into the drain.

a. I will NEVER leave the nor forsake thee<-Salvation losers say he will leave and forsake you
b. We are kept by the power of God through faith<-Salvation loser's god is weak and cannot keep you
c. NOTHING can separate us from the love of GOD<-Salvation losers say that WE can separate ourselves from God
d. We are sealed UNTO the day of redemption<-Salvation losers say we are UNSEALED
e. We are given the IRREVOCABLE gift of faith<-Salvation losers say that gift is TAKEN BACK
f. Jesus starts, finishes and COMPLETES his work of faith in us<-SALVATION losers and their weak god cannot COMPLETE his work
g. We are in the Father's hand<-SALVATION losers can disengage the Father's hand
h. We are in the Son's hand<-Salvation losers can disengage the Son's hand
I. We are given eternal/everlasting life<-Salvation losers deceptively change these words to TEMPORAL LIFE
J. JESUS said he will lose NOTHING but raise it up the last day<-EXCEPT the SALVATION losers
k. Everything that God does is everlasting "Ecclesiastes 3:14"<-Salvation losers say salvation is temporary
l. We are saved to the uttermost<-Salvation losers are temporarily and partially saved by their weak god
k. We are justified eternally<-Unless you are a salvation loser that can be rendered guilty again
m. We are positionally sanctified eternally<-A salvation loser is not sanctified eternally they must help their weak god
n. We are born again of INCORRUPTABLE SEED from ABOVE<-SALVATION losers say we can be corrupted and LOSE SALVATION
o. We can be saved yet SO AS BY FIRE and have works of wood, hay and stubble<-UNLESS you are a salvation loser
p. We can have our physical life forfeit by sin and still have the spirit saved<-UNLESS you are a salvation loser
q. David commits murder and adultery and yet speaks of his salvation in the PRESENT TENSE and paid the price dia CHASTENING<-SALVATION losers would have him quartered and burnt at the stake as a lost man that LOST HIS SALVATION
r. WHERE SIN ABOUNDS GRACE ABOUNDS THE MORE<--written unto believers<-SALVATION losers say SIN = loss of salvation
s. IF we believe "after belief" NOT HE ABIDES faithful because HE cannot deny HIMSELF<-HIS righteousness/blood applied by faith
t. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC.

No, I say it is the salvation losers that MISREAD, MISUNDERSTAND and or yank verses out of context to embrace a false teaching that is not found in the bible. THE ONLY people who have their name removed are those who die rejecting Christ having not overcome the world. FAITH has given us the victory over the world.

How many sins, occurrences of a lack of faith, skipped church services, lack of prayer etc. does it take to lose salvation? NONE because it is not loseable....and the absolute truth....the religions that embrace a loseable salvation have enslaved their people just as the Pharisees of old. Religion binds the hands of men to the religion's rigmarole.....and the even funnier truth....the same people who push a loseable salvation like a street organ player with a dancing monkey in Bombay will also...

a. Boast of how righteous, religious and good they are
b. NEVER say they have lost salvation<--THEY also yank HEBREWS out of context to say that IF you lose it you can never get it back

 

[UnderGrace]

None of the usual verses cited by once saved always saved adherents prove or uphold the doctrine
of a disciple not losing their salvation ...
you lot misread and misunderstand the scriptures to promote your error.
The gospels and the epistles clearly unequivocally warn of the dangers of backsliding, falling away,
losing faith, departing from the truth, being shipwrecked, etc, etc, etc.
Jesus even states openly for all to read that he can remove a person's name out from the Book of Life.

Yup all those dangers are real, that is why we are warned to not back slide etc etc., but they are not about losing one's salvation.
Jesus does not state that He will blot out names either, you have misinterpreted His words, dig deeper.

Consider this, brother: While many are professing eternal life in Christ Jesus by grace through faith, you keep professing your objections to His miraculous Grace.

Once we have been adopted into the Kingdom of God then we are heirs and co-heirs with Christ.
We are NOT employees of the Kingdom with temporary contracts based on performance.
Instead we are adopted children of God.

In your world no-one can claim to be an adopted child of God instead we are all on contracts and judged by our performance.

In other words there is no salvation

 

[UnderGrace]

You lot......hilarious....and we could just as easily say that "THE LOT" that believes salvation can be lost have gotten that from the religions you embrace and not scripture. Yes the bible warns the believer because GOD CHASTENS his children, not CAST them away. We could also say that you serve a weak, inept god that lies, is deceptive and does not keep his word or promises, would that be fair based upon the following?

The following truths must be rejected to embrace a salvation that can be lost like a coin on the street that rolls into the drain.

a. I will NEVER leave the nor forsake thee<-Salvation losers say he will leave and forsake you
b. We are kept by the power of God through faith<-Salvation loser's god is weak and cannot keep you
c. NOTHING can separate us from the love of GOD<-Salvation losers say that WE can separate ourselves from God
d. We are sealed UNTO the day of redemption<-Salvation losers say we are UNSEALED
e. We are given the IRREVOCABLE gift of faith<-Salvation losers say that gift is TAKEN BACK
f. Jesus starts, finishes and COMPLETES his work of faith in us<-SALVATION losers and their weak god cannot COMPLETE his work
g. We are in the Father's hand<-SALVATION losers can disengage the Father's hand
h. We are in the Son's hand<-Salvation losers can disengage the Son's hand
I. We are given eternal/everlasting life<-Salvation losers deceptively change these words to TEMPORAL LIFE
J. JESUS said he will lose NOTHING but raise it up the last day<-EXCEPT the SALVATION losers
k. Everything that God does is everlasting "Ecclesiastes 3:14"<-Salvation losers say salvation is temporary
l. We are saved to the uttermost<-Salvation losers are temporarily and partially saved by their weak god
k. We are justified eternally<-Unless you are a salvation loser that can be rendered guilty again
m. We are positionally sanctified eternally<-A salvation loser is not sanctified eternally they must help their weak god
n. We are born again of INCORRUPTABLE SEED from ABOVE<-SALVATION losers say we can be corrupted and LOSE SALVATION
o. We can be saved yet SO AS BY FIRE and have works of wood, hay and stubble<-UNLESS you are a salvation loser
p. We can have our physical life forfeit by sin and still have the spirit saved<-UNLESS you are a salvation loser
q. David commits murder and adultery and yet speaks of his salvation in the PRESENT TENSE and paid the price dia CHASTENING<-SALVATION losers would have him quartered and burnt at the stake as a lost man that LOST HIS SALVATION
r. WHERE SIN ABOUNDS GRACE ABOUNDS THE MORE<--written unto believers<-SALVATION losers say SIN = loss of salvation
s. IF we believe "after belief" NOT HE ABIDES faithful because HE cannot deny HIMSELF<-HIS righteousness/blood applied by faith
t. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC.

No, I say it is the salvation losers that MISREAD, MISUNDERSTAND and or yank verses out of context to embrace a false teaching that is not found in the bible. THE ONLY people who have their name removed are those who die rejecting Christ having not overcome the world. FAITH has given us the victory over the world.

How many sins, occurrences of a lack of faith, skipped church services, lack of prayer etc. does it take to lose salvation? NONE because it is not loseable....and the absolute truth....the religions that embrace a loseable salvation have enslaved their people just as the Pharisees of old. Religion binds the hands of men to the religion's rigmarole.....and the even funnier truth....the same people who push a loseable salvation like a street organ player with a dancing monkey in Bombay will also...

a. Boast of how righteous, religious and good they are
b. NEVER say they have lost salvation<--THEY also yank HEBREWS out of context to say that IF you lose it you can never get it back

Wow powerful truth!!

AMEN and AMEN

 

[Waggles]

You OSAS lot confuse and muddle the scriptures pertaining to the nature of God's love and his grace.
Sure God is true and faithful and will work to keep us saved and in the fold …
BUT
people are fickle and can and do give up and depart from the truth.
The problem is not with God but with human beings who have been known to throw in the towel, or worse
pursue another gospel …

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
2Timothy 2:

God is truly faithful, but disciples are often not.

 

[PennEd]

You OSAS lot confuse and muddle the scriptures pertaining to the nature of God's love and his grace.
Sure God is true and faithful and will work to keep us saved and in the fold …
BUT
people are fickle and can and do give up and depart from the truth.
The problem is not with God but with human beings who have been known to throw in the towel, or worse
pursue another gospel …

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
2Timothy 2:

God is truly faithful, but disciples are often not.

So God is going to work to keep us saved, but sometimes He's not working hard enough? Not competent enough? Not strong enough to keep us saved?

It's HIS faithfulness and Name He can't deny. If you are filled with the Holy Spirit, you are filled with HIM. That's Why He can't deny Himself.

 

[UnderGrace]

You OSAS lot confuse and muddle the scriptures pertaining to the nature of God's love and his grace.
Sure God is true and faithful and will work to keep us saved and in the fold …
BUT
people are fickle and can and do give up and depart from the truth.
The problem is not with God but with human beings who have been known to throw in the towel, or worse
pursue another gospel …

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
2Timothy 2:

God is truly faithful, but disciples are often not.

Note verse 11 already states that being raised to new life is a guaranteed promise.

This is written in a chaism and actually teaches we are eternally secure because Jesus is "faithful"

If we have died with Him (and every believer has) - then we will also live with Him (in His presence after death)

If we are faithful/endure for Him through the course of our lives - then we will also reign/govern with Him in his Kingdom.

If we deny Him/are unfaithful to Him - then He will deny us the privilege of reigning/governing with Him.

But even if we are unfaithful (forfeiting the privilege of reigning/governing with Him) - Even then He remains faithful to us - we will live with Him -

For He cannot deny Himself.

So it is not us OSAS people who confuse scripture, mostly it seems like we are constantly defending the integrity and faithfulness of

God and scripture, whereas, the conditional somewhat saved people look at their own integrity and faithfulness for salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

Note verse 11 already states that being raised to new life is a guaranteed promise.

This is written in a chaism and actually teaches we are eternally secure because Jesus is "faithful"

If we have died with Him (and every believer has) - then we will also live with Him (in His presence after death)

If we are faithful/endure for Him through the course of our lives - then we will also reign/govern with Him in his Kingdom.

If we deny Him/are unfaithful to Him - then He will deny us the privilege of reigning/governing with Him.

But even if we are unfaithful (forfeiting the privilege of reigning/governing with Him) - Even then He remains faithful to us - we will live with Him -

For He cannot deny Himself.

So it is not us OSAS people who confuse scripture, mostly it seems like we are constantly defending the integrity and faithfulness of

God and scripture, whereas, the conditional somewhat saved people look at their own integrity and faithfulness for salvation.

AMEN.......not the mention the generic application of -->if we deny him he will deny us <----this can be proclaimed in a matter that totally points to the lost that deny Christ and NOT the saved like Peter that denied the Lord three times, but NEVER lost his salvation. It is utterly amazing how many RELIGIONS and PEOPLE place KEEPING themselves saved squarely upon their own shoulders....this MINDSET devalues the work, promises and power of Christ while LIFTING SELF above JESUS and the aforementioned promises, power and work of Christ....

 

[garee]

You OSAS lot confuse and muddle the scriptures pertaining to the nature of God's love and his grace.
Sure God is true and faithful and will work to keep us saved and in the fold …
BUT
people are fickle and can and do give up and depart from the truth.
The problem is not with God but with human beings who have been known to throw in the towel, or worse
pursue another gospel …

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
2Timothy 2:

God is truly faithful, but disciples are often not.

Yes he cannot deny himself. He is our confidence. We are to put no confidence in the flesh as those who seek after signs before they will beleive.(Charismaticism).We walk by faith not by sight looking with a living hope to the goal of our faith, our new incorruptible bodies. All die not receiving the promise which we will by faith.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Philipians 1:6

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Hebrews 11:39-40

God will not forget the good works we have shown in respect to His name.(no outward sign to confirm that )

 

[garee]

None of the usual verses cited by once saved always saved adherents prove or uphold the doctrine
of a disciple not losing their salvation ...
you lot misread and misunderstand the scriptures to promote your error.
The gospels and the epistles clearly unequivocally warn of the dangers of backsliding, falling away,
losing faith, departing from the truth, being shipwrecked, etc, etc, etc.
Jesus even states openly for all to read that he can remove a person's name out from the Book of Life.

There are books (plural)

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

One, the book of life in respect to all created from the first Adam, to the last unknown .

The other book, the Lambs book of life as those elected from the foundation of the word. When compared on the last day all whose names are not found in the lambs book of life are those who have not been given a new incorruptible spirit. They will not rise on the last day to receive the promise of a incorruptible body .

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation21:27

There will be no erasing from the lambs book of eternal life as new creatures.

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.Revelation13:7-9

 

[Waggles]

Remember therefore from where thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly,
and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Revelation 2:5

He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 3:5

 

[dcontroversal]

Remember therefore from where thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly,
and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Revelation 2:5

He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 3:5

Neither of those teach that salvation can be lost.....

a. The removal of the candlestick is the removal of their authority as a New Testament church and is applied to the whole body, not individually, nor does it equate to the lose of salvation.

b. John wrote that it is OUR FAITH is what OVERCOMES and ALL have been written in the book of life and are only removed due to unbelief.....THOSE who confess me before MEN (FAITH) I WILL confess before MY FATHER which is in heaven.

WAGS....there are no scriptures that teach a salvation that can be lost....YES we can and are judged, chastened, lose reward, suffer in the flesh (DAVID) and maybe even forfeit our physical life due to sin or disobedience, but our salvation is ETERNAL, our justification is eternal, our positional sanctification in Christ is eternal, our spirit has been born of INCORRUPTABLE SEED from ABOVE, it does not sin, is eternally secure, we are kept by the power of GOD, JESUS will FINISH what he started in us and the gifts of GOD are IRREVOCABLE!

 

[Ralph-]

“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭ESV‬

Simple.

If you fall away in unbelief after repenting, and God tuns you over to that unbelief, you are not allowed to come to repentance again to taste the heavenly gift and share in the Holy Spirit and experience the powers of the age to come.

We know from the whole counsel of scripture that God may make an attempt to bring the ex-believer back to faith in Christ after they leave (i.e. the Galatians) but if they don't come back they will eventually be locked out from being able to come back.

So keep believing. And if you have already fallen away in unbelief come back while you still can. Don't play games.

"24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides (continues) in you, you also will abide (continue) in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:24

"9 Anyone who goes too far (casts the word of God behind them) and does not abide (continue) in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides (continues) in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."-2 John 1:9

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."-1 John 5:11-12

"they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."-Romans 11:20-22


The message is plain and it is clear: Stay in Christ by continuing to trust in him or you will not continue in the Father and the Son who is eternal life. If you leave and you resist all efforts of God to bring you back to faith in Christ you will eventually not be allowed to come back to repentance again.

 

[PennEd]

Simple.

If you fall away in unbelief after repenting, and God tuns you over to that unbelief, you are not allowed to come to repentance again to taste the heavenly gift and share in the Holy Spirit and experience the powers of the age to come.

We know from the whole counsel of scripture that God may make an attempt to bring the ex-believer back to faith in Christ after they leave (i.e. the Galatians) but if they don't come back they will eventually be locked out from being able to come back.

So keep believing. And if you have already fallen away in unbelief come back while you still can. Don't play games.

"24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides (continues) in you, you also will abide (continue) in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:24

"9 Anyone who goes too far (casts the word of God behind them) and does not abide (continue) in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides (continues) in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."-2 John 1:9

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."-1 John 5:11-12

"they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."-Romans 11:20-22


The message is plain and it is clear: Stay in Christ by continuing to trust in him or you will not continue in the Father and the Son who is eternal life. If you leave and you resist all efforts of God to bring you back to faith in Christ you will eventually not be allowed to come back to repentance again.

So on the one hand it is IMPOSSIBLE to believe again, but on the other hand you can unelieve for a little while, but you better dang make sure that unbelief doesn't last too long!!

OP. Please don't listen to this type of post.

 

[UnderGrace]

come back while you still can

Hmmm.......And how long is "while"

 

[Ralph-]

Hmmm.......And how long is "while"

How long did the Galatians have before they lost the inheritance Paul said they'd lose for no longer relying on Christ for justification?

 

[Ralph-]

So on the one hand it is IMPOSSIBLE to believe again, but on the other hand you can unelieve for a little while, but you better dang make sure that unbelief doesn't last too long!!

OP. Please don't listen to this type of post.

Just because you did not refuse to come back when the Shepherd came looking for his lost sheep doesn't mean all lost sheep will.

What the passage says is God will not allow you to come back, not that you wouldn't want to. And we know from the whole counsel of the Bible God may give space for immature sheep to respond to his call to come back. I'm suggesting the more mature and knowledgable you are when you left, and the reason you left, the less time, if any, he will give to come back. But surely the passage shows us you can NOT come back to repentance again at some point.

 

[UnderGrace]

How long did the Galatians have before they lost the inheritance Paul said they'd lose for no longer relying on Christ for justification?

Exactly, Paul mentions no time span, why because your concept of a person having salvation and loosing salvation does not even exist, it is a complete fable, total eisegesis.

 

[dcontroversal]

Hmmm.......And how long is "while"

Watch his flip flop.....according to him you leave your lost forever (Hebrews out of Context) and now he posts COME back while you can....his dogma vacillates more than the ocean waves on Bondi Beach in Sydney, Australia.......

 

[dcontroversal]

Exactly, Paul mentions no time span, why because your concept of a person having salvation and loosing salvation does not even exist, it is a complete fable, total eisegesis.

AMEN...................although he will never acknowledge the truth.......