Not By Works

[Cee]

I understand your objective here.

If you can prove that Paul killed believers then you can say that the Law he said is obsolete wasn't the Law given in the OT. But have you forgotten that David was blameless to the Law and he killed people? Or even Elijah? Or Samuel? These men all killed people. And Scripture records them as being with God.

Abraham killed someone (an Egyptian) and he's called the father of Faith.

Back then "Do not murder" could be justified.

And Scripture doesn't record he killed believers. It records he persecuted them.

Maybe you've forgotten in the Old Covenant there was permission (and a command) to kill people for blasphemy?

Now, the LAW of Christ, which is to love people as *He* loved us changes things.

The Pharisees devoted their entire lives to keeping the Law. Being blameless meant they were covered by the sacrifices of the temple. Because we no one was righteous before God. No one. So there's a difference there. Job and Noah are also both recorded as being blameless.

So many people were killed in the OT. And it was perfectly okay according to the Old Covenant ways. Tell me again how Jesus blood ratified it?

Paul admits what he did against the followers of Messiah.

and you beinging Daivid into it has nothign to do with Paul follow Yah;s Law or pharisee law when he grew up.

also carrying out judgement was and is a prat of the Law what do you think Yahsua is going to do when He returns? He will fulfill His role as judge.

ALso you didnt answer my question....

except the Messiah says they "nullify Yah;s Law by their (pharisee) tradition:

Mat 15:3-9, “But He answering, said to them, “Why do you also transgress the command of YHWH because of your tradition? For YHWH has commanded, saying, ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me has been dedicated, is certainly released from respecting his father or mother.’ So you have nullified the command of YHWH by your tradition."Hypocrites! Well did Isayah (29:13-14*) prophesy of you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

but yes everything I post is out of context...

And sure Paul WAS against the believers, but that doesn't mean he killed them like you stated.

And my examples of David, Samuel, and others are very relevant to this even if you want to believe they are not.

And yes Jesus did say that, but that doesn't mean that Paul is talking about the "Law of the Pharisees" when he said he was blameless according to it. (Romans 7 proves this) you made that up. In this once instance the Pharisees tradition didn't follow the Law properly. Like I said they were wrong and Jesus' was showing them they needed a Savior. But that doesn't at all mean that EVERY TIME PAUL says the Law was obsolete he's talking about the law of their traditions. You made that up.

And yes you do post out of context. You post one verse at a time. Just like you just did. Ignoring the context. Just like you did here.

 

[Shamah]

"as long as Gentiles took part of the things/ways of Yah they are always "grafted in" or considered a part of Israyl"


here is a quote from you.... what do you mean by this?

it doesnt sound like by faith through grace the gentiles recieve the gift (not reward) of salvation to me

also you have implied a born again believer
a child of God.... saved already

can be ultimately cast into the lake of fire depending on their works

how does this statement by me promote "works salvation" its nto even hinted at, it seems you are reading into my words what you want to, but none the less here:

Here I will post the passage and then give my view:

Exodus 12:47-49, “All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the Passover to יהוה, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. One law shall be to him that is nativeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourns among you.”

So a "stranger" (gentile) keeps the Passover (prophetic picture of Messiah's Sacrifice) they are "grafted in" to Israel and are as an Israelite, at this point they have the same set of rules as the native born Israelite.

This is the same as today IMO, any who accept Messiah are a part of Yah's people and all are the same...

Acts 10:34-36, “And opening his mouth, Kĕpha said, “Truly I see that Yah shows no partiality, but in every nation, he who fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. He sent the word to the children of Yisra’yl, bringing the Good News: peace through יהושע Messiah! He is Master of all."

now I know this last passage is probably not acceptable.. it says..eeek works! stirke it from the book ! pharisee lawyer has spoken!!!! circle the wagons!!!! call in the troops!!!!!! LOL!!! It the words and it says what it says, it does not teach "works salvation"

Here maybe this one is more acceptable (maybe not verse 1-6 but 7 is probably ok)?

Isaiah 56:7, “Them I shall bring to My set-apart mountain, and let them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their ascending offerings and their sacrifices are accepted on My altar, for My house is called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

I could post more verses but I think that shows.

 

[Cee]

And here is proof that the Law Paul is talking about is not the "law of their traditions". As some believe.

It is the "Law written on stones".

2 Co 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?

The ministry of death, carved on stone, has been brought to an END for the believer.

People struggle over this Scripture because they think Jesus saying the Law is still around contradicts this Scripture. But what they don't understand is that Jesus is showing them they need a Savior. And HE is it.

And when He saves us we live according to His Law (Law of Christ), which is to love one another as *He* loved us. And this fulfills the Law and the Prophets. Yes, the Law (on stones and in your heart for Gentiles) still exists for those who wish to live according to it. But if you fail at one point you are guilty.

Paul himself says, that he stopped seeking a righteousness of his own according to the law. Because that's EXACTLY what the Law does. You either seek to be righteous by it. Or you seek to be righteous by Christ.

 

[Shamah]

And sure Paul WAS against the believers, but that doesn't mean he killed them like you stated.

And my examples of David, Samuel, and others are very relevant to this even if you want to believe they are not.

And yes Jesus did say that, but that doesn't mean that Paul is talking about the "Law of the Pharisees" when he said he was blameless according to it. (Romans 7 proves this) you made that up. In this once instance the Pharisees tradition didn't follow the Law properly. Like I said they were wrong and Jesus' was showing them they needed a Savior. But that doesn't at all mean that EVERY TIME PAUL says the Law was obsolete he's talking about the law of their traditions. You made that up.

And yes you do post out of context. You post one verse at a time. Just like you just did. Ignoring the context. Just like you did here.

No I did not say everytime he says Law its pharisee tradtion, quote me saying that? you are putting words in my mouth and finding me guilty... Im done for today Cee.

THis shows the when Paul lived as a Pharisee at that time he was the overseer in the field of Stephens murder, approved of the murder of the believers, spoke that he did these things and the daeth penalty was given to some of his captured "fugatives"

I say all this to show that Paul as a Pharisee was not blameless to YHWH Law, but was JUST AS HE SAYS "as a Pharisee blameless"

Acts 7:54-60,54 And hearing this they were cut to the hearts and gnashed the teeth at him."55 But he, being filled with the Set-apart Spirit, looked steadily into the heaven and saw the esteem of Elohim, and יהושע standing at the right hand of Elohim,"56 and he said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Aḏam standing at the right hand of Elohim!” Psa 110:1."57 And crying out with a loud voice, they stopped their ears, and rushed upon him with one mind,"58 and threw him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Sha’ul."59 And they were stoning Stephanos as he was calling and saying, “Master יהושע, receive my spirit.”"60 And kneeling down he cried out with a loud voice, “Master, do not hold this sin against them.” And having said this, he fell asleep."

Acts 8:1-4,1 And Sha’ul was giving approval to his death. And on that day there was a great persecution against the assembly which was at Yerushalayim, and they were all scattered throughout the countries of Yehuḏah and Shomeron, except the emissaries."2 And dedicated men buried Stephanos, and made great lamentation over him."3 But Sha’ul was ravaging the assembly, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, putting them in prison."4 Then those who had been scattered went everywhere bringing the Good News: the Word!"

Acts 9:1-2,1 But Sha’ul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Master, having come to the high priest,"2 asked from him letters to the congregations of Dammeseq, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, to bring them bound to Yerushalayim."

 

[Shamah]

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."





Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."





"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459, Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)


1) the condition of without law, 1a) because ignorant of it, 1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness





1 Yahanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of YHWH: When we love YHWH by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of YHWH: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

 

[Cee]

No I did not say everytime he says Law its pharisee tradtion, quote me saying that? you are putting words in my mouth and finding me guilty... Im done for today Cee.

THis shows the when Paul lived as a Pharisee at that time he was the overseer in the field of Stephens murder, approved of the murder of the believers, spoke that he did these things and the daeth penalty was given to some of his captured "fugatives"

I say all this to show that Paul as a Pharisee was not blameless to YHWH Law, but was JUST AS HE SAYS "as a Pharisee blameless"

Acts 7:54-60,54 And hearing this they were cut to the hearts and gnashed the teeth at him."55 But he, being filled with the Set-apart Spirit, looked steadily into the heaven and saw the esteem of Elohim, and יהושע standing at the right hand of Elohim,"56 and he said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Aḏam standing at the right hand of Elohim!” Psa 110:1."57 And crying out with a loud voice, they stopped their ears, and rushed upon him with one mind,"58 and threw him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Sha’ul."59 And they were stoning Stephanos as he was calling and saying, “Master יהושע, receive my spirit.”"60 And kneeling down he cried out with a loud voice, “Master, do not hold this sin against them.” And having said this, he fell asleep."

Acts 8:1-4,1 And Sha’ul was giving approval to his death. And on that day there was a great persecution against the assembly which was at Yerushalayim, and they were all scattered throughout the countries of Yehuḏah and Shomeron, except the emissaries."2 And dedicated men buried Stephanos, and made great lamentation over him."3 But Sha’ul was ravaging the assembly, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, putting them in prison."4 Then those who had been scattered went everywhere bringing the Good News: the Word!"

Acts 9:1-2,1 But Sha’ul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Master, having come to the high priest,"2 asked from him letters to the congregations of Dammeseq, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, to bring them bound to Yerushalayim."

Like I said, he was against the disciples, but you and I both know... breathing threats about murder is not murdering them. He brought letters so they might be bound. The point is Scripture doesn't say Paul killed them. And even if he did, lots of people in the OT killed people.

"I say all this to show that Paul as a Pharisee was not blameless to YHWH Law, but was JUST AS HE SAYS "as a Pharisee blameless""

Okay, then I will address this statement since you think I am misunderstanding you.

3For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of Godb and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more:

Paul is pointing to people who think they have confidence in their own ability. And he says if ANYONE thinks he has confidence in his own flesh. I have more. Paul is clearly saying that you think you're doing it right? I have done it far more correctly. And then he lists why.

5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.

Paul didn't say as a Pharisee - blameless. Paul says as to the Law, a Pharisee. The Pharisees were the teachers of the Law. They devoted their entire lives to it. This is Paul's statement. I know the Law better than anyone.

But look what he says next... as to RIGHTEOUSNESS under the law, blameless. He didn't say as a Pharisee blameless like you stated. No, he said as to the LAW, blameless.

And Paul says... but whatever I have gained by circumcision, birth, understanding of the law, zeal for the law, and righteousness under the law. I count it ALL as loss. Because Christ is so much better.

7But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ

9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

Now look here, he says NOT having a righteousness that comes from the LAW.... this is not his traditions... this is righteousness that comes from observing the LAW... Paul the Pharisee taught under Gamilel wanted NONE of it.

He wanted only righteousness that comes from faith in Christ.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Cee's lack of response to my post tells me he eated my coookieeee...

lol

 

[Cee]

Cee's lack of response to my post tells me he eated my coookieeee...

lol

I eat all the cookies

But I share with you blue.

 

[Cee]

No I did not say everytime he says Law its pharisee tradtion, quote me saying that? you are putting words in my mouth and finding me guilty... Im done for today Cee.

THis shows the when Paul lived as a Pharisee at that time he was the overseer in the field of Stephens murder, approved of the murder of the believers, spoke that he did these things and the daeth penalty was given to some of his captured "fugatives"

I say all this to show that Paul as a Pharisee was not blameless to YHWH Law, but was JUST AS HE SAYS "as a Pharisee blameless"

Acts 7:54-60,54 And hearing this they were cut to the hearts and gnashed the teeth at him."55 But he, being filled with the Set-apart Spirit, looked steadily into the heaven and saw the esteem of Elohim, and יהושע standing at the right hand of Elohim,"56 and he said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Aḏam standing at the right hand of Elohim!” Psa 110:1."57 And crying out with a loud voice, they stopped their ears, and rushed upon him with one mind,"58 and threw him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Sha’ul."59 And they were stoning Stephanos as he was calling and saying, “Master יהושע, receive my spirit.”"60 And kneeling down he cried out with a loud voice, “Master, do not hold this sin against them.” And having said this, he fell asleep."

Acts 8:1-4,1 And Sha’ul was giving approval to his death. And on that day there was a great persecution against the assembly which was at Yerushalayim, and they were all scattered throughout the countries of Yehuḏah and Shomeron, except the emissaries."2 And dedicated men buried Stephanos, and made great lamentation over him."3 But Sha’ul was ravaging the assembly, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, putting them in prison."4 Then those who had been scattered went everywhere bringing the Good News: the Word!"

Acts 9:1-2,1 But Sha’ul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Master, having come to the high priest,"2 asked from him letters to the congregations of Dammeseq, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, to bring them bound to Yerushalayim."

I do apologize if I put words in your mouth, but when you take the clear words of Scripture that say "Law is made obsolete" and then use an out of context Scripture of Jesus telling the Pharisees that they were following traditions instead of God's Law because they opposed Him healing on the Sabbath. And make that to be the same thing, I don't agree. And I don't feel it's a fair or correct use of Scripture. Maybe you don't use that approach in other places that the "Law" is mentioned. So I apologize for saying you do it all the time.

 

[blue_ladybug]

I eat all the cookies

But I share with you blue.

 

[UnderGrace]

by their own walk* is what i meant at the end there

not sure what happened to my phone

You did that on your phone, Impressive!!

 

[dcontroversal]

after looking at this again, wow your are such a accusing deceiver.

look at it:



lets say for a second I was saying "sin not" I wan not but lets say...

LOOK AT THE CONTEXT!!!

"bondage to sin not""?


If I was saying sin not, I would then be calling it bondage to sin not.... NOT SINNING IS NOT BONDAGE...

That really shows you deceptive will DC we may disagree on a lot but this one is something else...

my Messiah freed me from bondage to sin, not from His Instrucations...

There ya go.....you sound like a politician.....say something in error and then spend two weeks trying to sweep it under the rug......hilarious...!

 

[GRASSESANDDRAGONFLIES]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Oh, come on! It has to be murky to acquire this many thread pages in response.

This is one of those topics that always appears in a Bible discussion forum or a Christian discussion forum.
We have to work to keep our salvation.
Hogwash. And there are a lot of clean pigs on the net due to this age old rehash I'm sure.

If we have to labor and fret to hope we're approved after working hard to keep our salvation, then God lied when he said salvation is a free irrevocable gift due to God's grace.
I don't think God lied.
I think people think they have to help God save them. That's really not a good thing becasue that then tells Christ it wasn't that necessary for him to die on the cross in order to seal the new covenant God sent him here to establish in his name and likeness.

But that's just moi.

Keeping up with my hobby of watching more hogs enjoy their bubble bath thanks to meeeeeee.

 

[dcontroversal]

John 11:26
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I do....it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe....NO works, law keeping, religious hoops, back flipping down the isle and or Apostle's Creed required.....!!

 

[Seohce]

1. Not by works( NOT “VOID OF WORKS”) but by grace thru FAITH.(eph 2:8-9)
2. Justified by works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.(james 2:24)
3. Faith that Worketh in Love.(gal 5:6)
4. Faith and Action Working TOGETHER.(james 2:22)

Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH and NOT BY WORKS(of ourselves).(#1)


It is NOT BY FAITH ALONE(#2)but it WORKS in LOVE(#3)thus FAITH & LOVE(works of obedience(romans 1:5) manifested in ACTION and in TRUTH)(1john 3:16-18)are working TOGETHER.(#4)


2 John 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE: THAT WE WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE.




THE FIRST PHASE OF SALVATION IS TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE THAT GOD HAS SENT AND IN HIS WORD OF TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION.

(john 6:28-29, eph 1:13,romans 10:8-17).

THROUGH THIS FAITH WE WILL RECEIVE THE PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT(the Helper/Counsellor)(gal 3:14, john 14:16-17)


John 6:28-29 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the WORKS GOD REQUIRES?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to BELIEVE in the one he has sent.”


THE SECOND PHASE IS THE WORKING OUT OF THAT SALVATION AND REMAINING/CONTINUING IN THE FAITH TO THE END THROUGH OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL AND COMMANDMENTS, DOING GOOD WORKS. WALKING AS JESUS DID AND BEING A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST WHO DOES THE WORKS BEING LED BY THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHO IS THE HEAD.


Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, HIS BODY OF WHICH HE IS THE SAVIOR.


1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.


1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.


John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has FAITH in me WILL DO WHAT I HAVE BEEN DOING. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father


1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, iF YOU HOLD FIRMLY TO THE WORD I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.


Romans 1:5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the OBEDIENCE that comes from FAITH.


Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always OBEYED—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—CONTINUE TO WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.


Romans 6:16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as servants, you are servants to the one whom you obey—WHETHER YOU ARE SERVANTS TO SIN, WHICH LEADS TO DEATH, OR TO OBEDIENCE, WHICH LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS?


2 Corinthians 9:13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the OBEDIENCE THAT ACCOMPANIES YOUR CONFESSION OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.


Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, TO PREPARE GOD’S PEOPLE FOR WORKS OF SERVICE, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, ATTAINING to the whole measure of the FULLNESS of Christ.


Romans 2:7 To those who by persistence in DOING GOOD seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.


Galatians 6:9 Let us not become weary in DOING GOOD, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.


Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus TO DO GOOD WORKS, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


1 Timothy 6:18-19 Command them TO DO GOOD, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.


Hebrews 5:8-9 Although he was a son, he learned OBEDIENCE from what he suffered and, once made PERFECT, he became the SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION for all who OBEY HIM.


Matthew 19:16-17 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do TO GET ETERNAL LIFE?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.”


Matthew 25:21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful SERVANT You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. COME AND SHARE YOUR MASTER’S HAPPINESS!’


WE ARE SANCTIFIED BY THESE TRUTHS AS IT IS WRITTEN:

John 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.


James 1:22 BUT BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD AND NOT HEARERS ONLY deceiving your own selves.


Romans 2:13 (For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God: that WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS; and His commandments are not grievous.


1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth.


Ephesians 3:19 and to know this LOVE that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all THE FULLNESS OF GOD.


THE THIRD PHASE OF SALVATION IS SALVATION FROM GOD’S WRATH. THIS IS DEPENDING ON GOD’S MERCY AND JUDGMENT(JUSTICE).


Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”


1 John 4:17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because IN THIS WORLD WE ARE LIKE HIM.


Matthew 12:36-37 But I tell you that MEN WILL HAVE TO GIVE ACCOUNT ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”


John 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father,(ref:john 14:12) where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment,(ref:hebrews 10:26-27) because the prince of this world now stands condemned.


Romans 2:5-10 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.


Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? FOR WE WILL ALL STAND BEFORE GOD’S JUDGMENT SEAT.


2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.


Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, NOT TO BEAR SIN, BUT TO BRING SALVATION to those who are waiting for him.


1 Peter 4:17-18 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY the gospel of God? And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the SINNERS.


John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who WORKS for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.


John 3:34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.


John 8:47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

 

[Seohce]

19Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

OUR LORD JESUS BEFORE GOING BACK TO THE FATHER INSTRUCTED HIS DISCIPLES TO TEACH OBEDIENCE UNTO ALL NATIONS.

IF ANYONE WOULD TEACH THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WORD, TEACHINGS, LAWS AND COMMANDS, IS NOT NECESSARY OR PART OF SALVATION, DOES HE NOT TEACH CONTRARY TO THE LORD’S TEACHINGS?

WHEN THE LORD SAID THAT “IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS”, AND SOMEONE ELSE WOULD SAY THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE BECAUSE “FAITH ALONE SAVES”. IS IT NOT A CLEAR REJECTION, NULLIFICATION, DISRESPECT, DISOBEDIENCE, UNBELIEF AND MOCKERY OF GOD’S WORD?

15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16They profess that they know God; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being ABOMINABLE, and DISOBEDIENT and unto every good work REPROBATE.

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, TURNING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO (A LICENSE FOR) LASCIVIOUSNESS, and DENYING the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

...Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men….Full well ye reject the commandment of God... making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.(mark 7:6-13)

...because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.(isaiah 5:20-24)

...Be not deceived; GÒD IS NOT MOCKED: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.(galatians 6:7-10)

32who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are WORTHY OF DEATH, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF .GOD ÙPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE

MAN GOT SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THE SIN OF DISOBEDIENCE WHEN MAN WAS DECEIVED BY THE SERPENT WHO SAID THAT “...Ye shall not surely die.”(genesis 3:4)

DÈCEIVERS OF THIS AGE SAYS THE SAME THING;

“YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE (PERIßH / BE CONDEMNED). ONCE YOU'RE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS ßAVED. JUST HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS (OF RIGHTEOUSNESS / ÒBEDIENCE) AND YOU WILL POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE.

IS IT NOT APPOINTED FOR MEN TO DIE ONCE AND FACE JUDGMENT AFTER? (hebrews 9:27-28)

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And WHOSOEVER WAS NOT FOÙND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

“FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD”

JESUS HAS NOT FOUND YOUR WORKS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. REMEMBER THEREFORE WHÀT YOU HEARD AND RECEIVED. OBEY IT, AND REPENT.(revelations 3:1-6)

47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48HE THAT REJECTETH ME, and RECEIVETH NOT MY WORDS, hath one that judgeth him: THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, THE SAME SHALL. JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I KNOW THAT HIS COMMANDMENT IS LIFE EVERLASTING: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

 

[GRASSESANDDRAGONFLIES]

I do....it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe....NO works, law keeping, religious hoops, back flipping down the isle and or Apostle's Creed required.....!!

OK, I gotta say, I'd smile big time if someone back flipped down the aisle.

 

[Cee]

1. Not by works( NOT “VOID OF WORKS”) but by grace thru FAITH.(eph 2:8-9)
2. Justified by works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.(james 2:24)
3. Faith that Worketh in Love.(gal 5:6)
4. Faith and Action Working TOGETHER.(james 2:22)

Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH and NOT BY WORKS(of ourselves).(#1)


It is NOT BY FAITH ALONE(#2)but it WORKS in LOVE(#3)thus FAITH & LOVE(works of obedience(romans 1:5) manifested in ACTION and in TRUTH)(1john 3:16-18)are working TOGETHER.(#4)


2 John 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE: THAT WE WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE.




THE FIRST PHASE OF SALVATION IS TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE THAT GOD HAS SENT AND IN HIS WORD OF TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION.

(john 6:28-29, eph 1:13,romans 10:8-17).

THROUGH THIS FAITH WE WILL RECEIVE THE PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT(the Helper/Counsellor)(gal 3:14, john 14:16-17)


John 6:28-29 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the WORKS GOD REQUIRES?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to BELIEVE in the one he has sent.”


THE SECOND PHASE IS THE WORKING OUT OF THAT SALVATION AND REMAINING/CONTINUING IN THE FAITH TO THE END THROUGH OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL AND COMMANDMENTS, DOING GOOD WORKS. WALKING AS JESUS DID AND BEING A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST WHO DOES THE WORKS BEING LED BY THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHO IS THE HEAD.


Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, HIS BODY OF WHICH HE IS THE SAVIOR.


1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.


1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.


John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has FAITH in me WILL DO WHAT I HAVE BEEN DOING. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father


1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, iF YOU HOLD FIRMLY TO THE WORD I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.


Romans 1:5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the OBEDIENCE that comes from FAITH.


Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always OBEYED—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—CONTINUE TO WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.


Romans 6:16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as servants, you are servants to the one whom you obey—WHETHER YOU ARE SERVANTS TO SIN, WHICH LEADS TO DEATH, OR TO OBEDIENCE, WHICH LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS?


2 Corinthians 9:13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the OBEDIENCE THAT ACCOMPANIES YOUR CONFESSION OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.


Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, TO PREPARE GOD’S PEOPLE FOR WORKS OF SERVICE, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, ATTAINING to the whole measure of the FULLNESS of Christ.


Romans 2:7 To those who by persistence in DOING GOOD seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.


Galatians 6:9 Let us not become weary in DOING GOOD, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.


Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus TO DO GOOD WORKS, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


1 Timothy 6:18-19 Command them TO DO GOOD, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.


Hebrews 5:8-9 Although he was a son, he learned OBEDIENCE from what he suffered and, once made PERFECT, he became the SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION for all who OBEY HIM.


Matthew 19:16-17 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do TO GET ETERNAL LIFE?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.”


Matthew 25:21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful SERVANT You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. COME AND SHARE YOUR MASTER’S HAPPINESS!’


WE ARE SANCTIFIED BY THESE TRUTHS AS IT IS WRITTEN:

John 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.


James 1:22 BUT BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD AND NOT HEARERS ONLY deceiving your own selves.


Romans 2:13 (For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God: that WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS; and His commandments are not grievous.


1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth.


Ephesians 3:19 and to know this LOVE that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all THE FULLNESS OF GOD.


THE THIRD PHASE OF SALVATION IS SALVATION FROM GOD’S WRATH. THIS IS DEPENDING ON GOD’S MERCY AND JUDGMENT(JUSTICE).


Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”


1 John 4:17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because IN THIS WORLD WE ARE LIKE HIM.


Matthew 12:36-37 But I tell you that MEN WILL HAVE TO GIVE ACCOUNT ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”


John 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father,(ref:john 14:12) where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment,(ref:hebrews 10:26-27) because the prince of this world now stands condemned.


Romans 2:5-10 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.


Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? FOR WE WILL ALL STAND BEFORE GOD’S JUDGMENT SEAT.


2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.


Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, NOT TO BEAR SIN, BUT TO BRING SALVATION to those who are waiting for him.


1 Peter 4:17-18 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY the gospel of God? And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the SINNERS.


John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who WORKS for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.


John 3:34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.


John 8:47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Which phase are you in? How do you know you have enough works to be saved?

 

[GRASSESANDDRAGONFLIES]

Another thing that works salvation argument fails to realize? Jesus did all the work for us. All we have to do is believe. John 3:16

 

[Seohce]

DID JESUS STOP WORKING AFTER HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS (CHRIST’S FINISHED WORK ON THE CROSS)?


WHAT WORK WAS FINISHED ON THE CROSS?


DID CHRIST FINISH HIS WORKS OF SALVATION BY DYING ON THE CROSS?


John 5:17 Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.”


...the reason the son of man appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. (1 john 3:8)




John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.


Luke 24:44-49 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”




IS SALVATION “VOID OF WORKS” OR “ NOT BY WORKS (OF OURSELVES)?


ARE SERVANTS CONSIDERED WORKERS?


ARE PREACHERS,TEACHERS, EVANGELISTS, PASTORS, MINISTERS, ADMINISTRATORS ETC. CONSIDERED SERVANTS AND WORKERS OF GOD?

WHAT IF THEY ONLY HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS, THEN LOOK DOWN ON THE OTHER PARTS OF THE BODY IN HYPOCRISY AS IF THEY'RE THE ONLY LEGITIMATE PART OF IT? WILL THAT FAITH SAVE THEM?( 1 corinthians chapter 12)


WE ARE GOD’S FELLOW WORKERS(1 cor 3:9)

SENT OUT TO HARVEST WHAT WE HAVE NOT WORKED FOR...THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE.


Luke 10:2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.


John 4:34-38 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. EVEN NOW the reaper draws his wages, EVEN NOW HE HARVESTS THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad TOGETHER. Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ I SENT YOU TO REAP WHAT YOU HAVE NOT WORKED FOR. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.”


ARE THERE WORKS NEEDED TO BE DONE FOR SALVATION?


WE ARE TO SERVE IN THE WORKS OF THE GOSPEL WHICH IS THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION.


1 Thessalonians 3:2,5 We sent Timothy, who is our brother and GOD’S FELLOW WORKER in SPREADING THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith, For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter might have tempted you and our efforts might have been USELESS.


Philippians 2:22 But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has SERVED WITH ME in the WORK OF THE GOSPEL.


Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,


John 7:18 HE WHO SPEAKS ON HIS OWN does so to gain honor for himself, but HE WHO WORKS FOR THE HONOR OF THE ONE WHO SENT HIM IS A MAN OF TRUTH; there is nothing false about him.


John 9:4-5 As long as it is day, “WE” MUST DO THE WORK OF HIM WHO SENT ME. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”


1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.


BUT WE ARE NOT WORKING FOR OUR OWN SALVATION BUT FOR THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST OF WHOM HE IS THE SAVIOR (eph 5:23),

WHERE HE PUTS THOSE THAT ARE BEING SAVED AND ARE MADE PARTS OF HIS BODY FOR WORKS OF SERVICE.


Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, TO PREPARE GOD’S PEOPLE FOR WORKS OF SERVICE, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.


1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.


Romans 12:4-8 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.


1 Corinthians 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.


THE TRUE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS IS SELFLESS LOVE.


GOD GAVE US HIS ONLY SON.

JESUS GAVE HIS LIFE FOR US.

WE OUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR OUR BROTHERS.


1 John 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.


Philippians 2:4 Each of you should look not only to your OWN INTERESTS, but also to the interests of OTHERS.


Philippians 2:21 For everyone looks out for HIS OWN INTERESTS, not those of Jesus Christ.


Colossians 3:12-17 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.


Galatians 6:2,10 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.


Matthew 16:24-28 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, HE MUST DENY HIMSELFand take up his cross and follow me. For WHOEVER WANTS TO SAVE HIS LIFE WILL LOSE IT, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”


2 Timothy 2:14-19 A Workman Approved by God Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against QUARRELING ABOUT WORDS; it is of no value, and ONLY RUINS THOSE WHO LISTEN. Do your best to present yourself to God as one APPROVED, a WORKMAN who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because THOSE WHO INDULGE IN IT WILL BECOME MORE AND MORE UNGODLY. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have WANDERED AWAY FROM THE TRUTH. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and THEY DESTROY THE FAITH OF SOME. Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord MUST TURN AWAY FROM WICKEDNESS.”