OSAS= House Built on Sand

[LW97]

Just in case you are thinking of using Job 1:1, which reads, "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil" to further promote your agenda, you need to realize that the word "perfect" here does not mean that Job was sinless, without fault of defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time.

*Job had admitted his human sinfulness (Job 7:21; 13:26).

The word "perfect" which in Hebrew is "tam" does not necessarily imply absolute sinlessness. It signifies, rather, completeness, integrity, sincerity, but in a relative sense. The Hebrew term tam is equivalent to the Greek teleios, which is often translated perfect in the NT but which is better translated "full grown" or "mature."

In regards to man being sinless:

Ecclesiastes 7:20 - For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.

Romans 3:23 - ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Either we have been accounted as righteous based on faith in Christ or else we have not. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Matthew 7:14 says a few shall find the narrow gate. Not a lot shall find it and a few shall remain on it

 

[mailmandan]

Matthew 7:14 says a few shall find the narrow gate. Not a lot shall find it and a few shall remain on it

The narrow way is through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22-28; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9).

John 10:9 - I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Acts 4:12 - Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

 

[LW97]

The narrow way is through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22-28; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9).

John 10:9 - I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Acts 4:12 - Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

amen, and many rely on their own righteousness and perish

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If the 1 who belongs to the shepherd is lost, then why does Jesus say the 99 are just, and not 100 are just?

Why does Jesus say the 1 who is lost, is a sinner in need of repentance while the 99 are just and need no repentance?

According to your interpretation, the 99 were "just".

But according to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in His conclusion/summation of all the parables spoken in Luke 15 and the one in Luke 16, the ones you claim were "just", the ones to whom He was speaking according to Luke 15:3, were shown to be those who justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts (Luke 16:15).

You are completely missing the point of the parable when you insist that Jesus wanted everyone to know the sinner is in need of repentance.

Jesus spoke in parables for a specific reason. Did Jesus really need to speak in parables for the pharisees and scribes to understand that the lost need repentance?

You ignore the point and continue on your diatribe about sinners in need of repentance.

Remove the beam from your eye and look to see who flocked to Jesus to hear His words and who it was that isolated themselves and murmured because Jesus received publicans and sinners and ate with them. And for that action, Jesus reproved and rebuked the pharisees and scribes and spoke to them in parables that seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand ... not unlike what we've got going on in this thread.

Please be honest.

Seriously? I notice you glossed over the elephant in the room ---

What happens to the "new man" within the born again one under your scenario?

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


How about you "be honest" and answer pertinent questions rather than reiterate your misunderstanding of the parables in Luke 15.

 

[tourist]

Lol..since you like sheep references so much..heres another..lol

"We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

Isiah 53:6

Were the sheep lost or saved? Lol

Probably 99 were saved, Jesus found the lost one.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So the parable has nothing to do with non-OSAS or OSAS -- it is about God's care and concern for the lost.

The parables in Luke 15 were reproof/rebuke to the pharisees and scribes who isolated themselves from the publicans and sinners (as well as the Lord Jesus Christ). The Pharisees and scribes went so far as to murmur against the Lord Jesus Christ because He received publicans and sinners and ate with them (Luke 15:1-3).

In Luke 16:15, Jesus told them (pharisees and scribes) Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

So jpt believes the pharisees and scribes were righteous due to misinterpretation of the parable. He thinks that because Jesus said the 99 were "just persons" (Luke 15:7), they did not need repentance. However, Luke 16:15 is clear in pointing out that the pharisees and scribes justified themselves before men. Please note, Jesus didn't tell the pharisees and scribes they were "just" in the sight of God.

 

[Jewel5712]

UOTE="trofimus, post: 3679272, member: 226392"]100 sheep = israel.

Yes, israel belonged to God, as a nation.[/QUOTE]


Yes!

maybe I was not clear enough- the lost sheep is a saved sheep as long as it still believes in it's shepherd.

there is your answer.

"As long as it still belives".. THAT is saying that youre only His sheep IF..doesnt work that way..thats 'works" related...HE LOVES US REGARDLESS...

 

[Jewel5712]

The parables in Luke 15 were reproof/rebuke to the pharisees and scribes who isolated themselves from the publicans and sinners (as well as the Lord Jesus Christ). The Pharisees and scribes went so far as to murmur against the Lord Jesus Christ because He received publicans and sinners and ate with them (Luke 15:1-3).

In Luke 16:15, Jesus told them (pharisees and scribes) Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

So jpt believes the pharisees and scribes were righteous due to misinterpretation of the parable. He thinks that because Jesus said the 99 were "just persons" (Luke 15:7), they did not need repentance. However, Luke 16:15 is clear in pointing out that the pharisees and scribes justified themselves before men. Please note, Jesus didn't tell the pharisees and scribes they were "just" in the sight of God.

THANK YOU..i posted matthews rendition of it but it was totally overlooked because they just want to select certain verses to prove a point for OSAS and that had NOTHING to do with Jesus concept that He was trying to get through to the pharisees..

 

[mailmandan]

UOTE="trofimus, post: 3679272, member: 226392"]100 sheep = israel.

Yes, Israel belonged to God, as a nation.

That's true, but that does not mean that every Israelite was saved, as you already know. Just as speaking to Israel, God said - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.

Yet that does not mean that all the Israelites were saved either.

 

[Jewel5712]

And you're still here why?

Sheeerrr entertainment my friend..like watching a dog chase its tail waiting to see how long it takes to tire n smarten up to what hes really doing..lol

 

[Jewel5712]

That's true, but that does not mean that every Israelite was saved, as you already know. Just as speaking to Israel, God said - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.

Yet that does not mean that all the Israelites were saved either.

Yes..exactly..isreal was His people his "sheep"..the death and resurection made a way possible for the "lost sheep/gentiles to come to God and be reconciled to the "fold" as well

 

[Jewel5712]

I don't think you even realize that mailmandan is not even in the same book as you are in regard to 'once saved always saved' doctrine. But as long as what he says includes 'once saved always saved' it won't make any difference to you. I see this all the time among OSAS believers.

Our views might not be identicle but they certainly DONT agrer with any of yours! Lol

 

[PennEd]

Good questions - Is there another parable given that answers that question? I don't know of any such parable?

Well brother, if a sheep "wandering" equates to sin, I think Jesus taught that they will always be forgiven:
Matthew 18:
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

 

[preston39]

Sure thing. Here's a good start for ya:

Ezekiel 34:11 For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out.

That is symbolic of G-d assigning the Holy Spirit to remind the ..."sick" that they are lost and need repentance..

Ezekiel 34:16 "I will seek the lost, bring back the scattered, bind up the broken and strengthen the sick; but the fat and the strong I will destroy I will feed them with judgment.

Same

Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Through invitation by Christ's presence.

Matthew 18:12"What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying?

Not a good symbolism unless one wishes to conclude that G-d does not know where each is located even though scripture tells us that each hair on our head is numbered.!!!

Isaiah 62:12 And they will call them, "The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD"; And you will be called, "Sought out, a city not forsaken."

John 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

OooH!! Here's one of my faves!

Romans 8:38-39 King James Version (KJV)
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Symbolic...no one can interfere with G-d's plan of contact with Him by any of us.


Um... I don't see in that verse where Paul says " ONLY GETTING LOST WILL SEPARATE US" hmm . Go Fig.

We must come to G-d to escape our lost position....as a sinner.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

THANK YOU..i posted matthews rendition of it but it was totally overlooked because they just want to select certain verses to prove a point for OSAS and that had NOTHING to do with Jesus concept that He was trying to get through to the pharisees..

The version in Matthew addressed a completely different situation than what is stated in Luke.

In Luke, Jesus is reproving the pharisees and scribes who isolated themselves from publicans and sinners and murmured against the Lord Jesus Christ Himself because He received publicans and sinners and ate with them.

In Matthew, Jesus is responding to a question His disciples asked Him.

Two completely different scenarios and the full meaning of both parables is overlooked. That fact has been explained but is being swept under the carpet.

 

[Jewel5712]

We must come to G-d to escape our lost position....as a sinner.

Repentance

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes..exactly..isreal was His people his "sheep"..the death and resurection made a way possible for the "lost sheep/gentiles to come to God and be reconciled to the "fold" as well

I guess what was received on Day of Pentecost (and after) was no different than what was available before Day of Pentecost.

No sealing of the Holy Spirit ... no arrabōn (guarantee) of the Spirit ... no new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness ...

 

[Jewel5712]

The version in Matthew addressed a completely different situation than what is stated in Luke.

In Luke, Jesus is reproving the pharisees and scribes who isolated themselves from publicans and sinners and murmured against the Lord Jesus Christ Himself because He received publicans and sinners and ate with them.

In Matthew, Jesus is responding to a question His disciples asked Him.

Two completely different scenarios and the full meaning of both parables is overlooked. That fact has been explained but is being swept under the carpet.

I posted this before.im sure you missed it..


"The Parable of the Lost Sheep is one of the parables of Jesus. It appears in the Gospels of Matthew (Matthew 18:12–14) and Luke (Luke 15:3–7). It is about a shepherd who leaves his flock of ninety-nine sheep in order to find the one which is lost. It is the first member of a trilogy about redemption that Jesus tells after the Pharisees and religious leaders accuse him of welcoming and eating with "sinners."[1] The two parables that follow (in Luke's Gospel) are those of the Lost Coin and the Prodigal Son. The parable of the Good shepherd, a pericope found in John 10:1-21, derives from it.[according to whom?]"

 

[Jewel5712]

The version in Matthew addressed a completely different situation than what is stated in Luke.

In Luke, Jesus is reproving the pharisees and scribes who isolated themselves from publicans and sinners and murmured against the Lord Jesus Christ Himself because He received publicans and sinners and ate with them.

In Matthew, Jesus is responding to a question His disciples asked Him.

Two completely different scenarios and the full meaning of both parables is overlooked. That fact has been explained but is being swept under the carpet.

Here it is again...

The Parable of the Lost Sheep

Matthew 18: 10-14
10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.[a] 12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish"

Gotta include verses 10 n 11 alomg with the story to get the whole concept as ive repeated before...

 

[Jewel5712]

I guess what was received on Day of Pentecost (and after) was no different than what was available before Day of Pentecost.

No sealing of the Holy Spirit ... no arrabōn (guarantee) of the Spirit ... no new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness ...

I have NO IDEA where you get THAT idea from reading my post..lol