The antichrist was held back by God from taking reign of the world so that the disciples could finish witnessing to the nations and all tribes and tongues. This is also what Daniel saw in the visions; the antichrist taking reign for the last week (70th) but only in the middle of the week does he take away the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination.
Rapture
- Thread starter JP123
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
"Salvation" in Thessalonians (both epistles) is an eschatological salvation, as in, "the One delivering us out from the wrath coming," 1Th1:10, and, "[putting on...] for an helmet, the hope of salvation," 1Th5:8.
The "elect" of Matthew 24:22,24,31, and especially can this be seen in verse 31 (where it talks about how He "shall SEND His angels" and "THEY shall gather [verb] together His elect from the four winds" [basically, "from the extremities"] and mentions [just like Isaiah 27:12-13 does] "GREAT" trumpet [where Isaiah 27:12-13 says those of Israel will be gathered (verb) "ONE by ONE" ... and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem (correlating also with Isaiah 24:21-23, which also itself correlates with the timing of Rev19:19/16:14-16, i.e. His Second Coming to the earth)]). This isn't a "Rapture" passage, but DOES pertain especially to Israel's "future"... and their having come to faith within that future time period, just as Hosea 5:15-6:3 states, as well as other passages.
The "elect" of Matthew 24:22,24,31, and especially can this be seen in verse 31 (where it talks about how He "shall SEND His angels" and "THEY shall gather [verb] together His elect from the four winds" [basically, "from the extremities"] and mentions [just like Isaiah 27:12-13 does] "GREAT" trumpet [where Isaiah 27:12-13 says those of Israel will be gathered (verb) "ONE by ONE" ... and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem (correlating also with Isaiah 24:21-23, which also itself correlates with the timing of Rev19:19/16:14-16, i.e. His Second Coming to the earth)]). This isn't a "Rapture" passage, but DOES pertain especially to Israel's "future"... and their having come to faith within that future time period, just as Hosea 5:15-6:3 states, as well as other passages.
It would seem that apostasy is led by the man of sin, the father of lies as the one spirit that works in the many antichrists to deceive men .What holds him back is the Holy Spirit .
Satan the one spirit of the antichrists (many) will be destroyed on the last day , the day of the Lord when the new heavens and earth appear and we receive the end of our faith our incorruptible bodies as the bride of Christ. The formers things of this life will not be remembered or ever come to mind.
He will come as a thief in the night, but the believers like Noah who have a living hope can watch for Him as he can comes in the power of His unseen Spirit . All die not receiving their new bodies which will be neither male nor female Jew or gentile but a new creation.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
Satan the one spirit of the antichrists (many) will be destroyed on the last day , the day of the Lord when the new heavens and earth appear and we receive the end of our faith our incorruptible bodies as the bride of Christ. The formers things of this life will not be remembered or ever come to mind.
He will come as a thief in the night, but the believers like Noah who have a living hope can watch for Him as he can comes in the power of His unseen Spirit . All die not receiving their new bodies which will be neither male nor female Jew or gentile but a new creation.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
Do you mean, like this:
"26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." Acts 11:26
... do you mean that this verse indicates that "[they] were called Christians by God first in Antioch"?
And that elsewhere, where it calls believers "elect," that really there it should say "Christians"? And that no one before "Antioch" (Acts 11) could be considered "saved/believers/saints" (because it was HERE "first" that they were so called)?
No doubt, I am agreeing that the "elect" (of Israel) will have come to faith DURING/WITHIN that future specific time period that the Olivet Discourse is covering. So I personally don't mind if people call them "Christians" (just like people called those in Antioch "Christians" for the first time). No biggie, to me. As long as we understand that to mean they [will] have come to faith (i.e. are "saints" / "saved" / "righteous")... those who will ENTER the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, as that is the CONTEXT there.
Romans 9:26/Hosea 1:10-11 (as well as Hosea 5:15-6:3) [distinct from Rom9:25/Hos2:23b], and Romans 11, refer to Israel's FUTURE.
"26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." Acts 11:26
... do you mean that this verse indicates that "[they] were called Christians by God first in Antioch"?
And that elsewhere, where it calls believers "elect," that really there it should say "Christians"? And that no one before "Antioch" (Acts 11) could be considered "saved/believers/saints" (because it was HERE "first" that they were so called)?
No doubt, I am agreeing that the "elect" (of Israel) will have come to faith DURING/WITHIN that future specific time period that the Olivet Discourse is covering. So I personally don't mind if people call them "Christians" (just like people called those in Antioch "Christians" for the first time). No biggie, to me. As long as we understand that to mean they [will] have come to faith (i.e. are "saints" / "saved" / "righteous")... those who will ENTER the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, as that is the CONTEXT there.
Romans 9:26/Hosea 1:10-11 (as well as Hosea 5:15-6:3) [distinct from Rom9:25/Hos2:23b], and Romans 11, refer to Israel's FUTURE.
No, true worship has nothing to do the movement of a muscle, it is knowing God but the antichrist comes with lies so that people may not know God and this is what we call abomination that causes desolate.
The antichrist was being held so that the gospel is preached as a witness to all tribes that when the antichrist is released, people may have a standing to resist the lies, but still they fail because the delusion is so strong.
The antichrist was being held so that the gospel is preached as a witness to all tribes that when the antichrist is released, people may have a standing to resist the lies, but still they fail because the delusion is so strong.
I don't think its so important when he fulfilled the promise to give His people Israel a new name. But if he did.
It would appear the time was the time of reformation when the old testament shadows became sight and God took away the use of the flesh of a outward Jew in parables. Restoring it to another time period before there were Kings as a outward representative in Israel.
Remember the Jewish elders gathered them selves together (not called together by God) and refused to walk by faith rejecting God the King of kings not seen for one like the Pagan nations that surrounded them because of their jealousy. God gave them over for the temporal time period.
Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.
He named His people Christian a word when defined without any other meaning added simply means; "residence of the heavenly city of God". The New Jerusalem where we have our citizenship as His eternal bride.
It would appear the time was the time of reformation when the old testament shadows became sight and God took away the use of the flesh of a outward Jew in parables. Restoring it to another time period before there were Kings as a outward representative in Israel.
Remember the Jewish elders gathered them selves together (not called together by God) and refused to walk by faith rejecting God the King of kings not seen for one like the Pagan nations that surrounded them because of their jealousy. God gave them over for the temporal time period.
Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.
He named His people Christian a word when defined without any other meaning added simply means; "residence of the heavenly city of God". The New Jerusalem where we have our citizenship as His eternal bride.
Yes, during the apostolic age the spirit of the antichrist was already there but it was at that time that he was being held so that the gospel could be preached to all the nations. The gospel was preached through various means and the apostles were accompanied by signs and wonders at that time- it is for this reason that the antichrist could not work at that time because he also works signs and wonders to deceive men. A genuine sign here and another fake sign there would have rendered the gospel ineffective, so God held him back until the apostles were done with their mandate and then the antichrist pursued and killed them all.
Oh please, you just don't get it noose. You quoted Matthew 26:40 which is the trial of Jesus Christ who was accused of blasphemy. At vs40 the high priest is asking Jesus to swear two things. (1) are You the Christ/Messian and (2) are You the Son of God. At Luke 24:16 Jesus says, "Yes, I am."
Here at Matthew Jesus says, "hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting etc. Jesus sought to demonstrate to the Jews the FALSE image they have of the Messiah that He is a political figure. In other words when Jesus says, "hereafter" it suggest an end and a beginning. It was the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of a new period, the time between His first and SECOND COMING. After His resurrection Jesus returns to the glory He already had before the world began, John 17:3
In short, I do agree with you that there is no "rapture" but disagree with you that there is no second coming. Now, I ask you specifically who is teaching you this stuff and what kind of Church do you attend?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Here at Matthew Jesus says, "hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting etc. Jesus sought to demonstrate to the Jews the FALSE image they have of the Messiah that He is a political figure. In other words when Jesus says, "hereafter" it suggest an end and a beginning. It was the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of a new period, the time between His first and SECOND COMING. After His resurrection Jesus returns to the glory He already had before the world began, John 17:3
In short, I do agree with you that there is no "rapture" but disagree with you that there is no second coming. Now, I ask you specifically who is teaching you this stuff and what kind of Church do you attend?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Oh please, you just don't get it noose. You quoted Matthew 26:40 which is the trial of Jesus Christ who was accused of blasphemy. At vs40 the high priest is asking Jesus to swear two things. (1) are You the Christ/Messian and (2) are You the Son of God. At Luke 24:16 Jesus says, "Yes, I am."
Here at Matthew Jesus says, "hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting etc. Jesus sought to demonstrate to the Jews the FALSE image they have of the Messiah that He is a political figure. In other words when Jesus says, "hereafter" it suggest an end and a beginning. It was the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of a new period, the time between His first and SECOND COMING. After His resurrection Jesus returns to the glory He already had before the world began, John 17:3
In short, I do agree with you that there is no "rapture" but disagree with you that there is no second coming. Now, I ask you specifically who is teaching you this stuff and what kind of Church do you attend?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Here at Matthew Jesus says, "hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting etc. Jesus sought to demonstrate to the Jews the FALSE image they have of the Messiah that He is a political figure. In other words when Jesus says, "hereafter" it suggest an end and a beginning. It was the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of a new period, the time between His first and SECOND COMING. After His resurrection Jesus returns to the glory He already had before the world began, John 17:3
In short, I do agree with you that there is no "rapture" but disagree with you that there is no second coming. Now, I ask you specifically who is teaching you this stuff and what kind of Church do you attend?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Which church? None.
You chose to use a translation which has an ascribed meaning or view point, a suggestion that Jesus meant the far future event of His so called second coming. This view is absurd, Jesus was being asked if He was the christ and the last thing you'd expect as the answer is about His so called second coming some 2000 years later.
So, this is the right translation:
Matt 26:64“You have said it yourself, Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Sonof Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty Oneand coming on the clouds of heaven.”
And Mark
Mark 14:62“I am, saidJesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting atthe right hand of Power and coming with the cloudsof heaven.”
Jesus's answer was something that would be witnessed shortly by those who were in the court room, not 2000 years later.
And when does the son of man come back anyway?
Matt 10:22 You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. 23When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Matt 16:28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in Hiskingdom.”
John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
John 16:16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”
Soon can not be 2000 years later. Where did you get the idea that Jesus will come later at some point in future?
Then you do not understand the severity and magnitude of the wrath that is coming upon the earth. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be against those who have rejected Christ, the haughty, the prideful and arrogant. Those who have continued to live according to the sinful nature. According to you, there is no difference between the wicked and the righteous, for both will be subjected to God's wrath. Yet, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.
John 14:1-3 is Jesus' promise to all believers to go and prepare places for us in the Father's house and that He would come back to get us and take us back to those places that He prepared for us, that where the Lord is we may be also. 1 Thes.4:13-17 is a detailed account of John 14:1-3 in fulfillment of that promise. Regarding His appearing, in the letter to Philadelphia Jesus said that He would keep us out of the hour of trial that would be coming upon the whole world, which is in reference to the time of God's wrath. Every believer has been credited with righteousness and has been reconciled to God. His wrath no longer rests upon the believer and that because Jesus experienced it for us, satisfying it completely.
The coming wrath is not for believers, but for unbelievers who continue to reject Christ. There will be nowhere to hide during the time of God's wrath, as the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect every living thing on the planet. By the time the Lord returns to end the age, the majority of the population will have been decimated, the city of the nations will have collapsed, the oceans and fresh water will have been turned into literal blood and the islands and the mountains will be gone due to the greatest earthquake to ever hit the earth. This is supported by what the Lord said "if those days had not been cut short, no one would survive." As I said, the church cannot and will not be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which is initiated by the opening of the first seal.
John 14:1-3 is Jesus' promise to all believers to go and prepare places for us in the Father's house and that He would come back to get us and take us back to those places that He prepared for us, that where the Lord is we may be also. 1 Thes.4:13-17 is a detailed account of John 14:1-3 in fulfillment of that promise. Regarding His appearing, in the letter to Philadelphia Jesus said that He would keep us out of the hour of trial that would be coming upon the whole world, which is in reference to the time of God's wrath. Every believer has been credited with righteousness and has been reconciled to God. His wrath no longer rests upon the believer and that because Jesus experienced it for us, satisfying it completely.
The coming wrath is not for believers, but for unbelievers who continue to reject Christ. There will be nowhere to hide during the time of God's wrath, as the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect every living thing on the planet. By the time the Lord returns to end the age, the majority of the population will have been decimated, the city of the nations will have collapsed, the oceans and fresh water will have been turned into literal blood and the islands and the mountains will be gone due to the greatest earthquake to ever hit the earth. This is supported by what the Lord said "if those days had not been cut short, no one would survive." As I said, the church cannot and will not be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which is initiated by the opening of the first seal.
Oh please, you just don't get it noose. You quoted Matthew 26:40 which is the trial of Jesus Christ who was accused of blasphemy. At vs40 the high priest is asking Jesus to swear two things. (1) are You the Christ/Messian and (2) are You the Son of God. At Luke 24:16 Jesus says, "Yes, I am."
Here at Matthew Jesus says, "hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting etc. Jesus sought to demonstrate to the Jews the FALSE image they have of the Messiah that He is a political figure. In other words when Jesus says, "hereafter" it suggest an end and a beginning. It was the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of a new period, the time between His first and SECOND COMING. After His resurrection Jesus returns to the glory He already had before the world began, John 17:3
In short, I do agree with you that there is no "rapture" but disagree with you that there is no second coming. Now, I ask you specifically who is teaching you this stuff and what kind of Church do you attend?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Here at Matthew Jesus says, "hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting etc. Jesus sought to demonstrate to the Jews the FALSE image they have of the Messiah that He is a political figure. In other words when Jesus says, "hereafter" it suggest an end and a beginning. It was the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of a new period, the time between His first and SECOND COMING. After His resurrection Jesus returns to the glory He already had before the world began, John 17:3
In short, I do agree with you that there is no "rapture" but disagree with you that there is no second coming. Now, I ask you specifically who is teaching you this stuff and what kind of Church do you attend?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
"because the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we, the living remaining, will be caught away together with them in the clouds for the meeting of the Lord in the air; and so we will be always with the Lord."
"Behold, I tell to you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
* The Lord descend from heaven
* The dead are resurrected and caught up (harpazo)
* The living are changed and caught up to meet those in the clouds who resurrected
* The whole church dead and living meet the Lord in the air
* And so we will always be with the Lord
By not believing in the gathering of the church (rapture), you are not having faith in the Lord's promise. Regarding the Lord's appearing, Paul said the following:
"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait (wait actively, expectantly) for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
In Rev.19:6-8 the bride/church is seen in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen, white and pure. Then in Rev.19:14 the bride/church is seen following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen that she received at the wedding of the Lamb. In order for the church to be following the Lord out of heaven, we would already have to be in heaven and that due to the previous gathering (rapture).
Instead, you and others are looking forward to going through the wrath of God and going through the same punishment that the wicked will be going through. I would suggest that you do a thorough study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to get an understanding of the severity and magnitude of their collective destruction and the resulting fatalities. For there is no way that the Lord would leave His bride on the earth to be exposed to His wrath.
-
1
- Show all
Well, the fact of the matter is that you are quite mistaken.
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.... Even so then at this present time also there is a [Jewish] remnant according to the election* of grace... As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election*, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. (Rom 11:1,5,28)
* Strong's Concordance
eklogé: a (divine) selection
Original Word: ἐκλογή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: eklogé
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-log-ay')
Short Definition: a choosing out, selecting, choice by God
Definition: a choosing out, selecting, choice (by God).
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.... Even so then at this present time also there is a [Jewish] remnant according to the election* of grace... As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election*, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. (Rom 11:1,5,28)
* Strong's Concordance
eklogé: a (divine) selection
Original Word: ἐκλογή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: eklogé
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-log-ay')
Short Definition: a choosing out, selecting, choice by God
Definition: a choosing out, selecting, choice (by God).
-
1
- Show all
That's right, I said no "rapture," I did not say no second coming. Are you familar with Hebrews 9:28? "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, SHALL APPEAR A SECOND TIME FOR SALVATION/DELIVERANCE WITHOUT REFERENCE TO SIN, TO THOSE WHO EARGERLY AWAIT HIM."
So, can you please explain to me is this speaking about a rapture or a one and only second coming? Also look at 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come." I believe the "wrath" here is in reference to rejecting Jesus Christ. I base that on the fact that the context has to do with rejecting Jesus Christ for salvation. Just read 1Thess chapter 2 and notice what vs16 says, "hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they MIGHT BE SAVED; with the result that they always fill up the measure OF THEIR SINS. But WRATH has come upon them to the utmost."
You can also cross reference this with Ephesians 2:3, and especially the favorite verse of pre-tribbers 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Colossians 3:5,6 and another good verse is Romans 5:9. Context, context ahwatukee. I also have a question to ask you. At Matthew 24:40 or even vs41 the question was rasied by someone about what this verse means? "Then there shall be two men in the field, one will be taken, and one will be left." Do you use these verses as support for the so-called rapture?
IN GOD THE SON,
pluto
So, can you please explain to me is this speaking about a rapture or a one and only second coming? Also look at 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come." I believe the "wrath" here is in reference to rejecting Jesus Christ. I base that on the fact that the context has to do with rejecting Jesus Christ for salvation. Just read 1Thess chapter 2 and notice what vs16 says, "hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they MIGHT BE SAVED; with the result that they always fill up the measure OF THEIR SINS. But WRATH has come upon them to the utmost."
You can also cross reference this with Ephesians 2:3, and especially the favorite verse of pre-tribbers 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Colossians 3:5,6 and another good verse is Romans 5:9. Context, context ahwatukee. I also have a question to ask you. At Matthew 24:40 or even vs41 the question was rasied by someone about what this verse means? "Then there shall be two men in the field, one will be taken, and one will be left." Do you use these verses as support for the so-called rapture?
IN GOD THE SON,
pluto
I want to add a little adendum where you said I should do a little study on this subject. Trust me, I've been a Christian over 55 years now and when I first became a Christian I was taught exactly what your advocating to me now, the rapture and agreed with it for about 30 years. Then I decided to throughly check this all out and came to the conclusion to where I am at now. In a sense, I hope your right because nobody in their right mind wants to meet "THE" antichrist. Secondly, whether the Lord comes back, pre, mid, or post should not be an issue of division among believers to the point calling names or saying somebody is lying etc. Please note what the Apostle Paul said at 2 Timothy 2:15-19. Do you agree?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto