OSAS= House Built on Sand

[Ralph-]

Which verse are you referring to?

Good grief, UG, aren't you reading my posts????

I mean, you don't have to, but if you want to engage discussion you really should.

 

[UnderGrace]

Good grief, UG, aren't you reading my posts????

I mean, you don't have to, but if you want to engage discussion you really should.

I have been really, but I do not remember the exact verse, I have been burning the midnight oil working and then spending way to much time here reading and responding in so many threads things are a bit blurry,

I guess I can do a search...okay just wait I am tech savvy you know.

 

[UnderGrace]

Good grief, UG, aren't you reading my posts????

I mean, you don't have to, but if you want to engage discussion you really should.

Okay listen up ...Paul never says that salvation can be lost in the letter to the Galatians.

The law could never save as in eternal life.

He is juxtaposing the law and grace, falling away from grace is not losing one's salvation, it is going back to the law which could never save to begin with, if you fall from Grace you are not walking in the Spirit which means you will not have the resources to be victorious over sin.

Now answer my question.....how many denials are we allowed?

 

[justpassinthrough]

Yes a person must believe to be saved. But which salvation are we talking about in this parable, saved in scripture does not always refer to eternal life.

The parable of the Sower.

The message of the Gospel.

Believe and be saved.


JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

What must occur to reject eternal security by faith....

a. Jesus is an inept liar that cannot keep his word
b. The bible is full of lies, tainted verb tense, deceit and not worth setting next to the toilet.

Saved to the uttermost
Kept by the powwr of God
Never leave or forsake
Believe = Eternal life
Eternal life is not eternal
In Christ's hand
In the Father's hand
Sealed by the spirit
etc.

So many truths must be denied, rejected and flat stomped on to deny and or embrace a losable salvation....and those who sell out to the-->> I keep myself saved by my own obedience gabage have not trusted Christ by faith!

This is a bible study discussion.

Please refrain from logical fallacy and use scripture.



JPT

 

[UnderGrace]

No, it's all about your faith saving you. Yes, yes, we all know believing is only the conduit to that which saves--the blood of Christ--not that which actually does the saving. But nonetheless, faith is in fact how you are justified and made righteous before God (not by your works). And Paul made it clear in Galatians that you are not an heir of the promises if you stop believing/trusting in Christ for justification. Your problem is you have neglected to factor in these passages when crafting your doctrine about whether or not you can lose your salvation. Blowing them off by saying, "they don't really mean what they say" is not a satisfactory way to form doctrine.

Oh really, I absolutely believe what they say and might I add the ONLY way to understand scripture is from the truth that we are eternally saved in Christ.

You have yet to resolve the issue of at what point one looses their salvation, I need to know this so I can be clear when I witness to people, they should know and have this information with absolute clarity, God would want them to know I am sure of it, that is why I keep asking.

Is it once, twice , a month, a year?

Does God apply the same standard to everyone, does everyone only get one chance, is everyone allotted one month or is it ten years, maybe two minutes is the cut off point of disbelief?

I tell you these things to show your paradigm does not work?

This is the same God who designed Noah's Ark, the brain, the Levitical law and now He cannot give us some hard numbers on the frequency and duration of our unbelief to forfeit our inheritance?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Galatians is where we see that if a son becomes a slave he is no longer an heir of the Holy Spirit. He loses the Holy Spirit in salvation:

Galatians answers to THE CONTEXT of 2 Cor 1, 2 Cor 5, Eph 1??? Huh ...

There it is. If you fall away from faith in Christ and rely on works of the law you become a slave and you "shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman". The inheritance is the Holy Spirit. You LOSE the inheritance, the Holy Spirit (of which we have a down payment now) if you fall away from faith in Christ.

Then you better not rely on efforts of your flesh if you want your inheritance. Trust God ... He'll see you through.

There's two ways to try to wiggle out of this in order to preserve a 'once saved always saved' doctrine. First, you can say they weren't 'really' true believers. But Paul makes it very clear in the passages above that they really are/were believing sons (i.e. vs. 4:6 above). Second, you can say they simply lose the benefit of the Holy Spirit in sanctification. Problem: The author of Hebrews says you won't see the Lord without sanctification (Hebrews 12:14). Not seeing the Lord is talking about salvation: "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"-John 3:3.

Or we can stay WITHIN THE CONTEXT of 2 Cor 1, 2 Cor 5, and Eph 1, praise God for His unspeakable gift, and not fall into the trap of those who go to unrelated sections of Scripture to prop up the erroneous belief that God unseals and disinherits those who have given up trying to clean themselves up to maintain salvation on their own merits and instead entrust the keeping of their salvation to the One Who seals and gives the arrabōn (earnest) as a token of His guarantee. I trust in His guarantee more than I trust in my ability to maintain myself.

I did not know that believing in Christ is me trying to maintain myself. Do you have a verse for that?

You don't even realize that you're saying to trust in the Lord, too, but for some reason when you say it it isn't you trying to save yourself, but when I say it is. Very, very strange doctrine.

But that is not all you say, Ralph. You tack on additional criteria and it appears to me that you rely on your own efforts as opposed to relying on God. God continuously works within the born again believer to perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle (1 Pe 5:10).

Just as you keep insisting that we must have ongoing faith, do you trust that on an ongoing basis God is working within us so that we are assured we have what we need in order to face all the issues we deal with every single day (which He refers to as our light affliction which is but for a moment - 2 Cor 4:17). What does God mean when He tells us the inward man is renewed day by day while the outward man perishes (2 Cor 4:16)?

When you constantly and continuously harp on everything we must do to maintain salvation it appears to me that you are neglecting the most important part of that "maintaining" - that God is at work within to help us and guard against those things which distract us and cause us to stumble.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I agree with you analogy. I think these parables symbolize much more. They show the mindset of the Jewish leaders that are about to be shown the mercy of God when not only sinners but gentles will be welcomed and accepted as children of God.
The Jews of that time viewed God as their God only. They were doing all the WORK and the non Jews were playing. They to this day still do not except the grace of Jesus that was extended to ALL of God’s children.

When we change the context from what is intended to something other than what Jesus conveyed, we end up with compound error which causes nothing but confusion over issues which were not even the point of the parables.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Does this include trusting in Christ?

Are you saying because I trust in Christ for salvation that I need to examine whether or not I'm truly saved?

Actually, isn't that what you're doing? I'm telling you I entrust my salvation to God, and you're telling me you think there's an additional something needed from me in order for me to be assured that the God I entrust my salvation to is not going to remove His seal and His guarantee (His arrabōn).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

What the parable reveals is: Jesus teaching His disciples Christians who go astray and become lost: The are as sinners in need of repentance of they will remain lost.

mmhmmmm … the parables have nothing to do with the murmuring of the pharisees and scribes, who thought themselves too righteous to eat with the publicans and sinners (or the Lord Jesus Christ Himself because He dared to receive sinners, and eat with them).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

As long as we agree that the story of the Prodigal Son is not a proof text for 'once saved always saved' we're good.

Are you going to continue to use it as a proof text for your dogma?

The issue of salvation is not the intent of any of the parables in Luke 15. The parables were taught in response to the murmuring of the pharisees and scribes who secluded themselves from publicans and sinners (and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself because He received them and ate with them).

 

[justpassinthrough]

mmhmmmm … the parables have nothing to do with the murmuring of the pharisees and scribes, who thought themselves too righteous to eat with the publicans and sinners (or the Lord Jesus Christ Himself because He dared to receive sinners, and eat with them).

The parable of the lost sheep who was “just” while reconciled to the shepherd, but who wandered away and became lost.

The lost sheep is described as a sinner in need of repentance.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7


likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.



JPT

 

[dcontroversal]

When I come here on occasion and read these posts, truly I find it incomprehensible.

Yes a miserable attempt to rewrite the absolute perfect plan of redemption.

This false gospel is the bad news of "finish what God started" ... "the saved/unsaved phenomenen" ... "give and take-justification (gotta love that one)" " and of course "don't stop believin (is Journey in the house?)"

But you are right underneath it all, it is about "my own obedience" saves.

It is completely Catholic doctrine.

I agree 100% any effort by man where he "MUST" to keep, embellish, top off or maintain salvation, other than exercise saving faith the 1st and only time for eternal salvation, equates to a lying false religionist dogma with no power regardless of those on here that peddle their seemingly bible gospel of works.....!

Which verse are you referring to?

Does not matter...his skewed view will not allow him to understand the truth nor the context....he keeps himself saved because his Jesus (not the one of the bible) cannot keep him saved nor keeps his promises and he is powerless!......

 

[reneweddaybyday]

likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

You still don't get it.

The ninety and nine sheep of vs 4 are representative of the murmuring pharisees and scribes. The "just persons" of vs 7 are representative of the murmuring pharisees and scribes.

You think the pharisees had no need of repentance?

You think Jesus was in error to receive publicans and sinners and eat with them?

 

[justpassinthrough]

You still don't get it.

The ninety and nine sheep of vs 4 are representative of the murmuring pharisees and scribes. The "just persons" of vs 7 are representative of the murmuring pharisees and scribes.

You think the pharisees had no need of repentance?

You think Jesus was in error to receive publicans and sinners and eat with them?

I see, so the 99 sheep who are said to be just, were justified by Judaism.


WAKE UP!

Stop twisting and distorting God’s word.



JPT

 

[UnderGrace]

I agree 100% any effort by man where he "MUST" to keep, embellish, top off or maintain salvation, other than exercise saving faith the 1st and only time for eternal salvation, equates to a lying false religionist dogma with no power regardless of those on here that peddle their seemingly bible gospel of works.....!
Does not matter...his skewed view will not allow him to understand the truth nor the context....he keeps himself saved because his Jesus (not the one of the bible) cannot keep him saved nor keeps his promises and he is powerless!......

That is it Exactly!!

 

[justpassinthrough]

I agree 100% any effort by man where he "MUST" to keep, embellish, top off or maintain salvation, other than exercise saving faith the 1st and only time for eternal salvation, equates to a lying false religionist dogma with no power regardless of those on here that peddle their seemingly bible gospel of works.....!
Does not matter...his skewed view will not allow him to understand the truth nor the context....he keeps himself saved because his Jesus (not the one of the bible) cannot keep him saved nor keeps his promises and he is powerless!......

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3


For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Romans 13:9

• all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Does God keep the commandments for us?




JPT

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I see, so the 99 sheep who are said to be just, were justified by Judaism.


WAKE UP!

Stop twisting and distorting God’s word.

Do you still not get it?

The pharisees and scribes believed they were just. They isolated themselves from others they thought were beneath them ... the Lord Jesus Christ included.

Do you believe the pharisees and scribes were just because they believed they were just?

Do you believe Jesus Christ should not have eaten with the publicans and sinners?

The incident in Luke 15 is not the first time Jesus had to deal with the superior attitude of the pharisees and scribes:


Luke 5:

29 And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them.

30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?

31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Do you still not get it?

The pharisees and scribes believed they were just. They isolated themselves from others they thought were beneath them ... the Lord Jesus Christ included.

Do you believe the pharisees and scribes were just because they believed they were just?

Do you believe Jesus Christ should not have eaten with the publicans and sinners?

The incident in Luke 15 is not the first time Jesus had to deal with the superior attitude of the pharisees and scribes:


Luke 5:

29 And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them.

30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?

31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

In Luke 16, Jesus brings home the point:

Luke 16:

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.


The scribes and pharisees justified themselves before men.

What the scribes and pharisees believed was highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

 

[UnderGrace]

Do you still not get it?

The pharisees and scribes believed they were just. They isolated themselves from others they thought were beneath them ... the Lord Jesus Christ included.

Do you believe the pharisees and scribes were just because they believed they were just?

Do you believe Jesus Christ should not have eaten with the publicans and sinners?

The incident in Luke 15 is not the first time Jesus had to deal with the superior attitude of the pharisees and scribes:


Luke 5:

29 And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them.

30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?

31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

This is exactly it, they believed they were just. You have made the case perfectly!!

JPT there is no refuting this, it is plain as day and night.