OSAS= House Built on Sand

[Ralph-]

Oh really, I absolutely believe what they say and might I add the ONLY way to understand scripture is from the truth that we are eternally saved in Christ.

And that is precisely what your problem is: You read scripture with a predetermined, unmovable doctrine already set in place. That causes you to make passages not mean what they say. Your own doctrine blinds your eyes to the words you're reading. Even when someone shows you, you still can't see it. I see this over and over among Christians. It's called being indoctrinated. And just for the record, I see this most often and profoundly among Calvinist and Calvinist offshoots.

You have yet to resolve the issue of at what point one looses their salvation, I need to know this so I can be clear when I witness to people, they should know and have this information with absolute clarity, God would want them to know I am sure of it, that is why I keep asking.

Tell the unbeliever you're witnessing to that they can deny Christ after they become a believer and still be allowed to come back the same number of times you have determined according to Hebrews 6:4-6 (whatever that number is) that they can deny Christ as an unbeliever and still be allowed to come to repentance before he gives up on them.

Is it once, twice , a month, a year?

Does God apply the same standard to everyone, does everyone only get one chance, is everyone allotted one month or is it ten years, maybe two minutes is the cut off point of disbelief?

It depends on why the person left. If the believer denies Christ because of being deceived or misinformed God will obviously give them much more space to repent before he closes the door on them than he would the believer who knowingly denies him because they loves the world more than he loves the Lord.

I tell you these things to show your paradigm does not work?

This is the same God who designed Noah's Ark, the brain, the Levitical law and now He cannot give us some hard numbers on the frequency and duration of our unbelief to forfeit our inheritance?

God is smarter and more compassionate and understanding than you. Since he knows all and sees all, he knows how long and why the door to come back to the Lord in faith is to be left open. Obviously, he may leave it open longer for the person who has left because of deception or misinformation while closing it sooner for the person who willfully leaves the Lord in full understanding and willingness. Now, perhaps, you can see why your paradigm does not work.

 

[posthuman]

m...,

There is no misunderstanding of verse 9. If not...then please tell me which ones we must and which ones we don't have to?
Regardless, we must repent of our sins in an ongoing basis. That's the reason The Lord's pray includes..."forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those who trespasses against us".....a recommended daily prayer.

we must in our hearts recognize sin as sinful and not call evil good.

 

[LW97]

Now just make sure you never use the Prodigal Son to prove you can't lose your salvation (he left).

1 John 2:19

 

[Ralph-]

OSAI

Once Saved Always Insecure

There is no insecurity in Biblical 'yes, you can lose your salvation'.

As long as you are believing you are absolutely secure in the salvation that your believing secures for you. Venture away from God in unbelief and a denial of Christ, that is when you are insecure.

Christ is like a strong tower and refuge. It won't fall down around you and expose you to what it protects you from. It will stand forever. And so it is upon that confidence that you remain secured in that refuge and sanctuary. If you leave it that is when you are insecure.

 

[posthuman]

1 John 2:19

ah -- so was the son that went away squandering his inheritance saved before he left at all, or did he only become saved when he purposed in his heart to return?

For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.​

So they began to celebrate.
(Luke 15:24) ​

 

[posthuman]

There is no insecurity in Biblical 'yes, you can lose your salvation'.

As long as you are believing you are absolutely secure in the salvation that your believing secures for you. Venture away from God in unbelief and a denial of Christ, that is when you are insecure.

Christ is like a strong tower and refuge. It won't fall down around you and expose you to what it protects you from. It will stand forever. And so it is upon that confidence that you remain secured in that refuge and sanctuary. If you leave it that is when you are insecure.

it sounds kinda like only the insecure are secure . . ?
that i'm not able to be sure i'm saved unless i'm constantly worried i'll slip and lose my salvation..

the strong tower and sure confidence is that He has made atonement once and for all; a Shepherd i trust will find me when i'm lost, not a Shepherd who only keeps me when i stay in the pen. which doesn't mean 'get lost on purpose' lol -- it means, i don't doubt Him and His faithfulness to me: and that confidence produces love, which produces good and faithful sheep who ain't trying to get away from their Master.

 

[Ralph-]

1 John 2:19

Now read vs. 24-26 and note how inconsistent it is with 'once saved always saved's' interpretation of vs. 19.

Why is John telling the true believers who stayed and didn't leave to continue in Christ if, as 'once saved always saved' asserts, real believers can't and won't leave? See? You can't interpret vs. 19 the way 'once saved always saved' does because it creates a contradiction right in John's own words. And besides, we know from the case of the Galatians that true believers do walk away from faith in Christ..........and that God gives those who do that time to reconsider before he shuts them out forever.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Amen! Good luck indeed! In regards to 1 Corinthians 9:27, Greek scholar AT Robertson notes: "Paul asks the question. What is the prize before Paul? Is it that reward of which he spoke in verse 1 Corinthians 9:18, his glorying of preaching a free gospel?" Prize (brabeion) - Strong's #1017 - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph.

That doesn't sound like a free gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). A prize is something that you work for and win where a gift is something that you freely accept. In 1 Corinthians 9:27, the NIV says, "..disqualified for the prize," not disqualified for the gift of eternal life.

Notice that verse 24 says, "Do you not know that those who run in a race ALL run, but ONLY ONE receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it." In an Olympic race, all runners run but only one receives the gold medal. So what happens to the runners that receive the silver medal or bronze medal or finish the race with no medal? Are they disqualified from the Olympics or from the prize?

Right. 1Cor9, the entire chapter, the context is about obtaining "incorruptible crowns [stephanos]" (as opposed to "corruptible" ones):

"And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown [stephanos]; but we an incorruptible." 1Cor9:25

Also all through the context is repeated the word "gain" (as in, gaining individuals, vv.19-23), and the intro which refers to Paul stating, "YE are my work in the Lord" (v.1).

1Th2:19bsb states, "After all, who is our hope, our joy, our crown [stephanos] of boasting, if it is not you yourselves in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?"

The last verses of chapter 9 (vv.25-27) should be understood in light of the entire context... that is, "gaining" people to whom he is communicating the gospel, in such a way as "running to obtain [the prize/incorruptible stephanos-crown]" [via disciplining his body, and one way he personally did this was to do this "without charge" (working for free)]... so as to not be "a castaway"... in the sight of men, not God). The "crown [stephanos]" (per 1Th2:19) seems to me to be, those he has won to Christ (his "work in the Lord") and who will be "in the presence of our Lord at His coming".

Agreed. The "prize" is not "salvation" or "eternal life". That is clearly a "gift".

 

[Grandpa]

Those who think they can lose their salvation are correct. They can. Because they are relying on themselves to be saved.

What if they stop what they were doing that caused them to be saved? Obviously they would stop being saved.


But those who have built their house on the Rock trust the Lord Jesus Christ and not themselves to stay saved.

These who think that once saved always saved are correct because they rely on Christ and not something they do or have done in order to stay saved.

 

[Ralph-]

it sounds kinda like only the insecure are secure . . ?
that i'm not able to be sure i'm saved unless i'm constantly worried i'll slip and lose my salvation..

The child who is afraid to play in the street is the one who is most secure against the dangers of doing that.

the strong tower and sure confidence is that He has made atonement once and for all;

Yep. That's why you should stay in that strong tower.

Why depart from an atonement that lasts an eternity (as opposed to one that doesn't, i.e. the old covenant atonement, or no atonement at all)?

a Shepherd i trust will find me when i'm lost, not a Shepherd who only keeps me when i stay in the pen.

A good shepherd will do that, and that is exactly what Christ does. But if you can not be brought back, or you have perished while in the wilderness, he will end the search and turn you over to the choice you have made.

 

[posthuman]

yes, yes, yes to the rest of what you said..

A good shepherd will do that, and that is exactly what Christ does. But if you can not be brought back, or you have perished while in the wilderness, he will end the search and turn you over to the choice you have made.

but He says He will not lose even one -- what do i do with that?

 

[Ralph-]

Those who think they can lose their salvation are correct. They can. Because they are relying on themselves to be saved.

Show me in the Bible where believing in Christ is me relying on myself to be saved. Last time I checked 'believing' was not among the works that Paul said can not justify. In fact, he made it very clear that is the only thing that I do that can justify. But it sounds like you're pretty certain he said believing is also a work of the damnable works gospel. Show me.

What if they stop what they were doing that caused them to be saved? Obviously they would stop being saved.

That's how it works. Believing is how you got saved. Stop doing that and you cease to be saved. Paul said if you are presently believing you are presently saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2). But you claim I don't have to still be believing today to be saved.

But those who have built their house on the Rock trust the Lord Jesus Christ and not themselves to stay saved.

That's called 'believing', but when I say it it's called 'trying to save yourself'.

These who think that once saved always saved are correct because they rely on Christ and not something they do or have done in order to stay saved.

Wrong! Biblical 'yes, you can lose your salvation' has nothing to do with relying on self to save yourself. Unless you think 'believing' is included in what you do that can not save. And apparently you do, so show us the scripture that says that.

 

[posthuman]

Now read vs. 24-26 and note how inconsistent it is with 'once saved always saved's' interpretation of vs. 19.

Why is John telling the true believers who stayed and didn't leave to continue in Christ if, as 'once saved always saved' asserts, real believers can't and won't leave? See? You can't interpret vs. 19 the way 'once saved always saved' does because it creates a contradiction right in John's own words. And besides, we know from the case of the Galatians that true believers do walk away from faith in Christ..........and that God gives those who do that time to reconsider before he shuts them out forever.

​

Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us — eternal life. I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. ​

(1 John 2:24-26) ​

​

if what i heard from the beginning is that He has once and for all atoned for me, justifying me by faith in this work of His and having perfected me in His sight by the grace of His own blood apart from works, then what i'm supposed to make sure abides in me is that confidence: that security. in which case 'those who are trying to deceive' me would be those telling me that confidence is insecure; that His blood may be in some case insufficient.
it seems to me that the only way for His sacrifice to be ineffective is for me to disbelieve that it is, which would be to deny Him. so that 'enduring to the end' is enduring in that very belief, though i may fall 7 times, that He is able to make me rise again each time; that He catches me & the failure of my flesh no longer spells my doom.

((which is not saying toss yourself in the mud. that'd be idiocy if i truly believe))

 

[dcontroversal]

d.....,
You can repeat this...... bovine residue....all you wish. That does not make it biblical, because it is not.

Sure it is....and when you're standing in the plenteous in number group boasting of your right to enter based upon your works it will be too late pal....

The following is bible followed by your view..

Saved to the uttermost---I keep myself saved

Sealed unto the day of redemption---I keep myself sealed

Kept by the power of God----I keep myself saved by my power

I wilL NEVER LEAVE THE OR FORSAKE THEE----Jesus your not true, you will leave us and forsake us

No man can yank you from my hand---Jesus you're false, I can yank myself from your hand

He that believes in me is having everlasting life---The bible is false, eternal and everlasting mean temporary based upon what we do or do not do

In the grace you are having been saved by faith----No, this is false, we are saved and kept saved by our works

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe--Again the bible is false, we are saved by our works, religious deeds, what we do, and we don't need Jesus because it is in us to make it on our abilities

and on, and on and on...your false pal and your view is false...end of story!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Ephesians 1 -

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted [who fore-hoped] in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


[this speaks of "the Church which is His body" - Eph1:20-23 "when"]

 

[Grandpa]

Show me in the Bible where believing in Christ is me relying on myself to be saved. Last time I checked 'believing' was not among the works that Paul said can not justify. In fact, he made it very clear that is the only thing that I do that can justify. But it sounds like you're pretty certain he said believing is also a work of the damnable works gospel. Show me.



That's how it works. Believing is how you got saved. Stop doing that and you cease to be saved. Paul said if you are presently believing you are presently saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2). But you claim I don't have to still be believing today to be saved.



That's called 'believing', but when I say it it's called 'trying to save yourself'.



Wrong! Biblical 'yes, you can lose your salvation' has nothing to do with relying on self to save yourself. Unless you think 'believing' is included in what you do that can not save. And apparently you do, so show us the scripture that says that.

I didn't infer anything close to what you think I did.

I said those who think they can lose their salvation can lose their salvation because they are relying on themselves to be saved and to stay saved.

If you stop relying on yourself to be saved and to stay saved and instead rely on the Lord Jesus Christ then you will have real Salvation that can't be lost. OSAS...

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It is Paul’s and analogy not mine.
So run, that we may obtain. Keeping under our body, and bringing it into subjection: lest that by any means, when we have preached to others, we ourselves should be a castaway.


Paul says not me Romans in 6:23 The Gift of GOD is Life Eternal IN Christ Jesus.

Who we running in that we may obtain? Salvation is IN Christ and IN Him alone. The Gift is unity with Christ so that we may run in Him; bringing our body under subjection to the Spirit through Him that we ourselves are not a castaway and may obtain eternal life through life eternal; knowing GOD the Father and He whom HE sent. Knowing the FATHER. We and THEM together as ONE; the Body of Christ the Temple of GOD. Christ in the FATHER and we in Him that the world might believe!

1 Corinthians 9:

24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Paul is not talking about salvation.

Paul is talking about an incorruptible crown (vs 25).

If Paul does not preach God's Word to others, he will find himself as not worthy of the prize. (And Paul meant God's Word in vs 27 ... not the doctrines of men.)


You do know there are crowns?

Incorruptible crown - 1 Cor 9:25

Crown of rejoicing - 1 Thess 2:19

Crown of righteousness - 2 Tim 4:8

Crown of life - James 1:25

Crown of glory - 1 Peter 5:4

 

[Ralph-]

yes, yes, yes to the rest of what you said..



but He says He will not lose even one -- what do i do with that?

That's what the reference to the tower and refuge not falling down around you in my post is referring to. There will never be a failure in the tower of Christ to protect those he is protecting. He will not lose anyone because of incompetence, or sloth, or because he has died and unable to minister on their behalf anymore, or because of the sacrifice being consumed and having to be replaced with a new one. That's how it was under the old covenant. But in this New Covenant the High Priest will not, and can not fail and will never lose one of his due to the reasons I posted.

What can happen is the person can abandon all of these awesome features of His ministry and not be covered by them anymore. What will never happen is Christ losing one of them because of a failure or shortcoming in his ministry and sacrifice. That's why we need to stick with Christ in a continuing faith and not depart in unbelief back to the world. We are not protected by his perfect ministry there. Only believers who continue to believe are protected. You have to stay in the house to be protected by the house.

 

[dcontroversal]

​

Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us — eternal life. I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. ​

(1 John 2:24-26) ​

​

if what i heard from the beginning is that He has once and for all atoned for me, justifying me by faith in this work of His and having perfected me in His sight by the grace of His own blood apart from works, then what i'm supposed to make sure abides in me is that confidence: that security. in which case 'those who are trying to deceive' me would be those telling me that confidence is insecure; that His blood may be in some case insufficient.
it seems to me that the only way for His sacrifice to be ineffective is for me to disbelieve that it is, which would be to deny Him.

Exactly....Ralph is false.....he plays a good word game, but at the end of the day he believes he keeps himself saved....regardless of his spin...go read the works thread...he was very clear that HE KEEPS HIMSELF SAVED BECAUSE CHRIST cannot do it...HE CAN FORFEIT salvation at the drop of a hat and must maintain his FAITH AT ALL TIMES OR HE LOSES SALVATION....this is a false gospel of self salvation.....no power in that message!

 

[Ralph-]

I didn't infer anything close to what you think I did.

I said those who think they can lose their salvation can lose their salvation because they are relying on themselves to be saved and to stay saved.

If you stop relying on yourself to be saved and to stay saved and instead rely on the Lord Jesus Christ then you will have real Salvation that can't be lost. OSAS...

Relying on Christ is called 'believing'. But when I say you have to believe (present tense) to be saved you say that's me trying to save myself.