OSAS= House Built on Sand

[Ralph-]

Since you have now made ongoing belief in the efficacy of the sacrifice as your necessity for gaining eternal life, rather than the grace of God and the gift of salvation...…

How do you get eternal life without believing?

Believing is how you access the grace of God that does the saving. Stop believing and you lose access to the grace of God in salvation.

….. let me ask you this what would happen to someone who continues to believe in the efficacy of the sacrifice as a payment for sin...…... yet chooses to sin since they know the sin debt is paid and they continue to believe it is paid?

That person is in contemptuous unbelief. Remember, to believe in the sacrifice of Christ is to trust in the sacrifice of Christ, not just believe that it's real. The person who willfully sins after being saved is hardly demonstrating trust in the sacrifice for salvation from sin and it's eternal penalty. They are trampling on the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified. They will lose the benefit of the sacrifice they are trampling on and have nothing left to look forward to but to be destroyed as an enemy of God at Christ's coming.

It is all about ongoing belief in your view right?

Staying saved is about continuing to trust in the sacrifice of Jesus for the payment of your sins to your last dying breath. It's not new trust, it's not additional trust. It's the trust you started out with on day one and it must continue to the very end for the sacrifice you are trusting in to be applied to you to the very end. Stop trusting in it and it stops being applied to you for the forgiveness of your sins.

 

[justpassinthrough]

maybe we also need to know what 'deceived' means . .

I’m still trying to get the concept of becoming lost across to people.

For a person to become lost, they first must be “found”, having belonged to the Lord.


Like the examples Jesus so plainly taught us.


Lost sheep first belonged to the shepherd.

Lost coin first belonged to the woman.

Lost son first belonged to the father.


What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them...


Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin..


It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.



JPT

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I don’t find all of your complicated questions in the Bible.

• Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him,

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JPT

Do they keep HIS commandments because they abide In HIM and HE has equipped them to keep HIS commandments or do they have to be perfectly righteous with their own strength keeping HIS commandments?

It's not that hard of a question for you to answer but you don't seem to want to,I don't want to go on If you don't answer better than your first response.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How do you get eternal life without believing?

Believing is how you access the grace of God that does the saving. Stop believing and you lose access to the grace of God in salvation.



That person is in contemptuous unbelief. Remember, to believe in the sacrifice of Christ is to trust in the sacrifice of Christ, not just believe that it's real. The person who willfully sins after being saved is hardly demonstrating trust in the sacrifice for salvation from sin and it's eternal penalty. They are trampling on the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified. They will lose the benefit of the sacrifice they are trampling on and have nothing left to look forward to but to be destroyed as an enemy of God at Christ's coming.



Staying saved is about continuing to trust in the sacrifice of Jesus for the payment of your sins to your last dying breath. It's not new trust, it's not additional trust. It's the trust you started out with on day one and it must continue to the very end for the sacrifice you are trusting in to be applied to you to the very end. Stop trusting in it and it stops being applied to you for the forgiveness of your sins.

I think a tremendous part of the confusion about saving faith centers around the fact that Greek uses only one word for faith (some derivative of πίστις), while the English language uses two words for faith (belief/believe and faith) that can have two different meanings.

The Greek πίστις essentially means to trust out of conviction or persuasion. Trust is a product of both mind and heart. This is saving faith because it encompasses and orders the whole being.

The English faith expresses this same idea, but only in the noun form. For the verb form we use believe, which I think is where the problem lies. We can be convinced about something in our minds and say we believe, while at the same time not be convinced in our hearts and not trust.

Equivocation resulting from equating the two words turns mental belief into faith. That's why people can say they have faith when actually they have mental belief which they trust to save them. Such is salvation by knowledge rather than faith, which is the essence of gnosticism.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Do they keep HIS commandments because they abide In HIM and HE has equipped them to keep HIS commandments or do they have to be perfectly righteous with their own strength keeping HIS commandments?

It’s us by the Spirit obeying the truth.

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8


again


13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

• if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

JPT

 

[mailmandan]

I think a tremendous part of the confusion about saving faith centers around the fact that Greek uses only one word for faith (some derivative of πίστις), while the English language uses two words for faith (belief/believe and faith) that can have two different meanings.

The Greek πίστις essentially means to trust out of conviction or persuasion. Trust is a product of both mind and heart. This is saving faith because it encompasses and orders the whole being.

The English faith expresses this same idea, but only in the noun form. For the verb form we use believe, which I think is where the problem lies. We can be convinced about something in our minds and say we believe, while at the same time not be convinced in our hearts and not trust.

Equivocation resulting from equating the two words turns mental belief into faith. That's why people can say they have faith when actually they have mental belief which they trust to save them. Such is salvation by knowledge rather than faith, which is the essence of gnosticism.

Saving belief/faith does not merely believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) and in the existence of Christ and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened" (even the demons believe that).

Those with saving belief/faith in Christ entrust their spiritual well being to Christ/have reliance upon Christ for salvation/trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

It’s us by the Spirit obeying the truth.

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation. Only genuine believers by the Spirit obey the truth.

again

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

You need to stop reading Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans and concluding that Paul is teaching salvation by works. When you read and study these passages of scripture, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation. You continue to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. ***If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). You need to quit twisting the scriptures and teaching salvation by works!

 

[gb9]

The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation. Only genuine believers by the Spirit obey the truth.

Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

You need to stop reading Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans and concluding that Paul is teaching salvation by works. When you read and study these passages of scripture, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation. You continue to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. ***If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). You need to quit twisting the scriptures and teaching salvation by works!

a lot of folks want to present salvation like this- we are saved by faith, proven/maintained by good works, and then, if we have enough faith, and do enough good works ( or properly keep the Law ), then God grants us grace.

this is reasonable, it makes senses, it lines up with the western way of life ( do your job, then get your pay, make the payments, live in the house, drive the car).

but, it is NOT Biblical. not what Scripture teaches.

all need to remind themselves, every time you open the Bible, God's thoughts and ways are much, much higher than ours.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

a lot of folks want to present salvation like this- we are saved by faith, proven/maintained by good works, and then, if we have enough faith, and do enough good works ( or properly keep the Law ), then God grants us grace.

Yes, a lot of people, but I think it's really only the Roman Catholics who believe that way.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I’m still trying to get the concept of becoming lost across to people.

For a person to become lost, they first must be “found”, having belonged to the Lord.

Like the examples Jesus so plainly taught us.

Lost sheep first belonged to the shepherd.

Lost coin first belonged to the woman.

Lost son first belonged to the father.

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them...

Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin..

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.

In the examples of the lost sheep and the lost coin, the sheep was searched for until found, placed on the shoulder of the shepherd, and brought back into the fold while the coin was searched for diligently until found by the woman.

While no one went searching for the son who left the family homestead and wasted his substance with riotous living, his father watched for him as we can see in Luke 15:20 when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. This reveals that the father waited for his son to return and saw him returning when he was yet a great way off.

What I see in each of the examples is that fellowship is restored and is not severed.

However, some believe that the believer can become so "lost" that the Lord will not go out and search for him or her, or does not watch earnestly until he or she returns.

Some believe that the believer can stray to the point that even if he or she wants to repent and come back, he or she will not be allowed back into the fold (fellowship).

What do you believe?

Do you believe that a born again one, a child of God who is born again of incorruptible seed, can ever get to the point where he/she is not searched for and/or he/she is rejected by Father when he/she seeks to come back into fellowship?

 

[justpassinthrough]

a lot of folks want to present salvation like this- we are saved by faith, proven/maintained by good works, and then, if we have enough faith, and do enough good works ( or properly keep the Law ), then God grants us grace.

this is reasonable, it makes senses, it lines up with the western way of life ( do your job, then get your pay, make the payments, live in the house, drive the car).

but, it is NOT Biblical. not what Scripture teaches.

all need to remind themselves, every time you open the Bible, God's thoughts and ways are much, much higher than ours.

We are saved by grace through faith.

1. There is a principle [law] of faith that governs how faith operates or not.

The law of faith: Not the law of Moses!


27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28

2. Once we are in Christ, we are instructed by Him, that we are to remain in Him, or we will wither, in which we are cast into the fire and burned.​

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
John 15:5-7

3. The way the Bible teaches us, we are to remain in Him is by keeping His commandments.​

​

​

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

​

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



These are three points of discussion that are important to understand.





JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

In the examples of the lost sheep and the lost coin, the sheep was searched for until found, placed on the shoulder of the shepherd, and brought back into the fold while the coin was searched for diligently until found by the woman.

While no one went searching for the son who left the family homestead and wasted his substance with riotous living, his father watched for him as we can see in Luke 15:20 when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. This reveals that the father waited for his son to return and saw him returning when he was yet a great way off.

What I see in each of the examples is that fellowship is restored and is not severed.

However, some believe that the believer can become so "lost" that the Lord will not go out and search for him or her, or does not watch earnestly until he or she returns.

Some believe that the believer can stray to the point that even if he or she wants to repent and come back, he or she will not be allowed back into the fold (fellowship).

What do you believe?

Do you believe that a born again one, a child of God who is born again of incorruptible seed, can ever get to the point where he/she is not searched for and/or he/she is rejected by Father when he/she seeks to come back into fellowship?

The point that is being made by Jesus, is a person who wanders away and becomes lost, must repent, because they are now a sinner, who must repent to be saved and reconciled to God.


Either they need to return to God, like the prodigal son, or be brought back to repentance by someone going after them.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• will save a soul from death

A Christian who becomes lost is in danger of eternal death unless he repents.

A Christian who is in a "lost" state, is not reconciled to God, and is no longer justified: They are lost.





JPT

 

[Ralph-]

Yes, a lot of people, but I think it's really only the Roman Catholics who believe that way.

Yes, I agree.

We Protestants have the polar opposite problem--dead faith. Many of us think the faith that saves includes the faith that doesn't work. They think their dead faith is going to save them when Jesus returns because <all together now> salvation is not by works. Which is true, salvation is not earned by works. But the faith that justifies all by itself, apart from works, is the faith that works.

 

[gb9]

We are saved by grace through faith.

1. There is a principle [law] of faith that governs how faith operates or not.

The law of faith: Not the law of Moses!


27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28

2. Once we are in Christ, we are instructed by Him, that we are to remain in Him, or we will wither, in which we are cast into the fire and burned.​

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
John 15:5-7

3. The way the Bible teaches us, we are to remain in Him is by keeping His commandments.​

​

​

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

​

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



These are three points of discussion that are important to understand.





JPT

and what commands was John referring to? " believe in the name of Son, and love one another".

I wish some of you who lecture us on righteousness all the time would look into honesty.

it is dishonest to quote John for command keeping, and not say what the commands were.

 

[Ralph-]

Like Abraham, the father of faith, the footprints of justifying faith are your works of obedience.

 

[justpassinthrough]

and what commands was John referring to? " believe in the name of Son, and love one another".

I wish some of you who lecture us on righteousness all the time would look into honesty.

it is dishonest to quote John for command keeping, and not say what the commands were.

The commandments are about love.


Loving God and Loving people.


If we steal from our brother, is that loving him or hating him?

If we have other gods before the Lord, is that loving Him or hating Him?


The way we love God is to obey His commandment to love our neighbor.


20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.
1 John 4:20-21



Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

• you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

JPT

 

[PennEd]

The point that is being made by Jesus, is a person who wanders away and becomes lost, must repent, because they are now a sinner, who must repent to be saved and reconciled to God.


Either they need to return to God, like the prodigal son, or be brought back to repentance by someone going after them.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• will save a soul from death

A Christian who becomes lost is in danger of eternal death unless he repents.

A Christian who is in a "lost" state, is not reconciled to God, and is no longer justified: They are lost.





JPT

I guess you missed the OLDER son's sin of jealousy ,self righteousness and pride. Much more formidable and insidious sins to abandon. The story doesn't say if HE repented. Is HE still a son?

 

[justpassinthrough]

I guess you missed the OLDER son's sin of jealousy ,self righteousness and pride. Much more formidable and insidious sins to abandon. The story doesn't say if HE repented. Is HE still a son?

Did Jesus say the older son was lost?


The prodigal son returned to the father and was reconciled back to Him.


He therefore was restored, in which he was found: alive again.



JPT

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Either they need to return to God, like the prodigal son, or be brought back to repentance by someone going after them.

I note in Luke 15 that it's not just "someone" going after that which was lost. In the case of the sheep, it was the shepherd. In the case of the coin, it was the woman. In the case of the son, it was the father who waited earnestly for his return.

The shepherd, the woman, the father didn't send another to search or watch.

And none of the examples support your assertion of "eternal death" because all were restored.

 

[PennEd]

Did Jesus say the older son was lost?


The prodigal son returned to the father and was reconciled back to Him.


He therefore was restored, in which he was found: alive again.



JPT

Yup. But you didn't address the questions. Since it was sin that separated the younger son from the father, did the older son's sin separate him from the father as well? Unless you are saying that jealousy, self-righteousness, and pride aren't sins. We DO have a record of the younger son repenting and going into the feast.

We DO NOT have a record of the older son repenting and going to the feast.

Maybe that pride thing is a MUCH stronger sin to overcome than lust and drunkenness.