OSAS= House Built on Sand

[posthuman]

Keep believing the latter and you will have the security of Christ's salvation. Stop believing the latter and you lose the security of Christ's salvation.

this sounds quite like the proper definition of 'endure to the end' to me -- being on the basis of belief, not on the basis of works.

((which, for goodness sakes, is in no way a comment encouraging continuing in sin and/or purposefully neglecting or avoiding righteous acts and conduct, as we ought to all very well know... just putting that out there not because i expect you to take any such position but because we also all very well know how many straw people suddenly appear whenever salvation by grace through faith is mentioned))


((why do i feel like this needs a disclaimer lol))

 

[Ralph-]

Our free will is not taken away once we are saved, so we do not become robots and also, born again Christians become new creations in Christ and are adopted into God’s family. Hebrews 10:26 does not teach that Christians lose their salvation, as I have already explained to you numerous times.

The passages's own definition of 'sanctified' shows that Hebrews 10:26-29 does in fact teach that the person who goes back to the world in unbelief no longer has the sacrifice of Christ to cover him and has nothing left to look forward to but the wrath of God that the sacrifice of Jesus once protected him from. You can't just decide to ignore the context that shows us the author is talking about saved 'sanctified' people in order to protect a predetermined doctrine. Any honest person can see that by context 'sanctify' means 'saved' in the passage:

"13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? "-Hebrews 9:13

"10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."-Hebrews 10:10

"14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. "-Hebrews 10:14

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? "-Hebrews 10:

You lose the sanctification of Christ's sacrifice (which only has to be applied once) if you stop believing in that sacrifice. You are no longer set apart as holy (sanctified in salvation) if you go back to the world in unbelief. And the author made it clear in chapter 6 that you can't get it back once you lose it.

Don't wonder why learned theologians can't get it right. Stop trusting them. Look at the mess they made of tithing through their spiritless, misguided, wrong teachings. If they can miss the plain words about that, they can surely miss the plain words about losing the blood of Christ for salvation through a return to the world. Be a Berean! Stop taking theologians at their word. Check these things out for yourself. Stop following the doctrines of men, people.

 

[Ralph-]

this sounds quite like the proper definition of 'endure to the end' to me -- being on the basis of belief, not on the basis of works.

That's exactly what it means.

The argument of 'once saved always saved' boils down to whether or not a person can, or is allowed to stop believing. God doesn't do my believing/ trusting for me. That's my responsibility.....with loads of his help and encouragement, of course (it won't happen without it).

He gives the faith to believe. We do the believing. And you must continue in that believing you started on the day you got saved to be saved when he returns. Our continued believing keeps us in the security of Christ's salvation. Believing is how you got the security of his salvation to begin with, and believing is how you will keep it.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

So here we have another who does not have faith that Jesus who saves us keeps us saved.
He believes He must help by his own works.
You keep trusting in yourself and you will end up in Hell.

I would say that If he Is saved he will always be saved and he would seek to purify himself even as he Is pure or by the mercies of GOD ,present his body a living sacrifice unto GOD which Is a reasonable thing to do and not to conform to this world but to be transformed by the renewing of his mind so he can prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of GOD.

 

[posthuman]

That's exactly what it means.

The argument of 'once saved always saved' boils down to whether or not a person can, or is allowed to stop believing. God doesn't do my believing/ trusting for me. That's my responsibility.....with loads of his help and encouragement, of course (it won't happen without it). He gives the faith to believe. We do the believing. And you must continue in that believing you started on the day you got saved to be saved when he returns.

yes

. . . and then we have 2 Timothy 2:13, "when we are faithless He is faithful" just to keep anyone from getting the idea that we're wise, smart and have everything figured out, lol

i don't know whether you've ever heard me say, but in my opinion OSAS is a deceptive and incorrect framing of the security of faith in Him. particularly, 'opponents' of the acronym present the hypothetical situation that a person is genuinely become redeemed by Him through faith in the gospel, and then later in time this person utterly rejects Christ, with the presumption implicit that they never turn again to Him. then the opponent says in one form or another, that OSAS teaches that this person who never repents either in heart or in action and who completely despises Christ is still saved and goes on to eternity with Him as an unrepentant hater of God, therefore OSAS is rubbish.
here's my problem with that: this argument essentially presumes that God's redemption and salvation is a completely ineffective, totally superficial and more or less meaningless thing. it speaks of 'becoming saved' in the first place as though it's a sticker that gets slapped on you by performing a little ritual of repeating a "sinner's prayer" out loud or being baptized in water or whatever. just a label you get, that doesn't actually change anything about you. like you get handed a ticket stub, now hold on to it or you're doomed again, but God doesn't actually do anything to you other than put you on His email newsletter list or something like that. now you get salvation messages in your ear periodically; up to you whether that's meaningful.
see what i'm getting at? ((i'm never sure if this is coming across))
'OSAS' is framing this all as though 'be born again' or 'a new creation in Christ' are purely artificial terms, that God doesn't fundamentally actually do any work that changes a person: that He doesn't literally create in a person a new heart, instead He gives you a 'life coach' to assist and instruct a person in removing their own heart of stone - or rather, re-structuring that existing stone heart into one of flesh by following instructions for assembly and maintenance.
the issue is that 'OSAS' is using a poor working definition of salvation. it presumes that a completely superficial act "is" salvation, that salvation is superficial.

if the problem with me is that i lack belief, that i fundamentally lack capacity and will to do so, does God do anything about that? what i know, is that He created belief in me, and that it endures in me. He began something effectual in me and He will complete it

 

[Zmouth]

USA's ruler went and visited UK not too long ago.

was it US or UK while he was there?

Since the President of the United States is not considered to be the 'ruler' but rather a 'leader', so would it make any difference to you if it was US or UK while he was there?

Spoiler: UN

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.John 7:16

 

[posthuman]

the President of the United States is not considered to be the 'ruler'

someone should explain this to the president lol

 

[Grandpa]

yes

. . . and then we have 2 Timothy 2:13, "when we are faithless He is faithful" just to keep anyone from getting the idea that we're wise, smart and have everything figured out, lol

i don't know whether you've ever heard me say, but in my opinion OSAS is a deceptive and incorrect framing of the security of faith in Him. particularly, 'opponents' of the acronym present the hypothetical situation that a person is genuinely become redeemed by Him through faith in the gospel, and then later in time this person utterly rejects Christ, with the presumption implicit that they never turn again to Him. then the opponent says in one form or another, that OSAS teaches that this person who never repents either in heart or in action and who completely despises Christ is still saved and goes on to eternity with Him as an unrepentant hater of God, therefore OSAS is rubbish.
here's my problem with that: this argument essentially presumes that God's redemption and salvation is a completely ineffective, totally superficial and more or less meaningless thing. it speaks of 'becoming saved' in the first place as though it's a sticker that gets slapped on you by performing a little ritual of repeating a "sinner's prayer" out loud or being baptized in water or whatever. just a label you get, that doesn't actually change anything about you. like you get handed a ticket stub, now hold on to it or you're doomed again, but God doesn't actually do anything to you other than put you on His email newsletter list or something like that. now you get salvation messages in your ear periodically; up to you whether that's meaningful.
see what i'm getting at? ((i'm never sure if this is coming across))
'OSAS' is framing this all as though 'be born again' or 'a new creation in Christ' are purely artificial terms, that God doesn't fundamentally actually do any work that changes a person: that He doesn't literally create in a person a new heart, instead He gives you a 'life coach' to assist and instruct a person in removing their own heart of stone - or rather, re-structuring that existing stone heart into one of flesh by following instructions for assembly and maintenance.
the issue is that 'OSAS' is using a poor working definition of salvation. it presumes that a completely superficial act "is" salvation, that salvation is superficial.

if the problem with me is that i lack belief, that i fundamentally lack capacity and will to do so, does God do anything about that? what i know, is that He created belief in me, and that it endures in me. He began something effectual in me and He will complete it

First we have to agree on the easy obvious things before we can continue to talk about the harder less obvious things.

OSAS can be deceptive to those who went to church once, said a sinners prayer, and were told they were saved forever because of that prayer and then never read the bible or ever went to church again. And then claimed to be a Christian and OSAS.

But that doesn't mean that Real Salvation, Really being born again, Really being given a heart of flesh is not OSAS.

Just because some may be deceived doesn't mean that the Power of God to Save is diminished in any way. It doesn't mean that God saves one day and forsakes the next.

It just means that some have studied and prayed about Salvation and know and have worked out that Salvation with "fear and trembling".

And others come against the Faith apparently not knowing what spirit they are of.

Matthew 18:3-6
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

[longtrekker]

Our free will is not taken away once we are saved, so we do not become robots and also, born again Christians become new creations in Christ and are adopted into God’s family. Hebrews 10:26 does not teach that Christians lose their salvation, as I have already explained to you numerous times.

.

hi MMD

I probably missed your interpretation of Hebrews 10:12 - but would be interested in hearing it if can humor me. Thanks!

.

 

[UnderGrace]

If that's the measure of really being saved then you can never know in this lifetime if you are really saved. Until you die there is always tomorrow's failure to show that you were never really saved to begin with. That's a pretty insecure gospel. But so many are sure it's the doctrine of security and assurance.

The Bible's version of the security of salvation is simple: 'Keep believing'. And the Bible's version of assurance is act out your faith in your daily life so you can see for yourself that you have the Spirit of God inside of you in salvation. Why are so many Christians vehemently opposed to these simple, logical, Biblical truths?

Yes Ralphie, I know you have said this many, many, many times, .... sorry to read that you have not been persuaded yet that indeed the born again believer is assured and is secure in his/her salvation.

I am secure because I trust God's Holy word and His Spirit testifies to my spirit.
My actions are not trustworthy only God is Trustworthy!

 

[selfdissolving]

yes

. . . and then we have 2 Timothy 2:13, "when we are faithless He is faithful" just to keep anyone from getting the idea that we're wise, smart and have everything figured out, lol

i don't know whether you've ever heard me say, but in my opinion OSAS is a deceptive and incorrect framing of the security of faith in Him. particularly, 'opponents' of the acronym present the hypothetical situation that a person is genuinely become redeemed by Him through faith in the gospel, and then later in time this person utterly rejects Christ, with the presumption implicit that they never turn again to Him. then the opponent says in one form or another, that OSAS teaches that this person who never repents either in heart or in action and who completely despises Christ is still saved and goes on to eternity with Him as an unrepentant hater of God, therefore OSAS is rubbish.
here's my problem with that: this argument essentially presumes that God's redemption and salvation is a completely ineffective, totally superficial and more or less meaningless thing. it speaks of 'becoming saved' in the first place as though it's a sticker that gets slapped on you by performing a little ritual of repeating a "sinner's prayer" out loud or being baptized in water or whatever. just a label you get, that doesn't actually change anything about you. like you get handed a ticket stub, now hold on to it or you're doomed again, but God doesn't actually do anything to you other than put you on His email newsletter list or something like that. now you get salvation messages in your ear periodically; up to you whether that's meaningful.
see what i'm getting at? ((i'm never sure if this is coming across))
'OSAS' is framing this all as though 'be born again' or 'a new creation in Christ' are purely artificial terms, that God doesn't fundamentally actually do any work that changes a person: that He doesn't literally create in a person a new heart, instead He gives you a 'life coach' to assist and instruct a person in removing their own heart of stone - or rather, re-structuring that existing stone heart into one of flesh by following instructions for assembly and maintenance.
the issue is that 'OSAS' is using a poor working definition of salvation. it presumes that a completely superficial act "is" salvation, that salvation is superficial.

if the problem with me is that i lack belief, that i fundamentally lack capacity and will to do so, does God do anything about that? what i know, is that He created belief in me, and that it endures in me. He began something effectual in me and He will complete it

amen, amen. well said.

 

[OstrichSmiling]

Let those who do not trust God's grace work to achieve salvation. Such persons first faith is that that's what they deserve.

 

[UnderGrace]

Did you know Calvinism itself asserts that no one can know they are of the elect in this life?



That is why you should continue to believe in the finished work of Christ. The salvation and life he gives never ends like it did under the first covenant.

I actually did not know that. I do not follow Calvin's teachings per se, but I guess I would disagree with Calvin on this, I am absolutely and completed persuaded that I will be with Jesus when I die.

Sorry Ralphie, but it is not ongoing belief that saves, salvation/justification/regeneration is a gift from God to those who believe.

 

[Ralph-]

.... sorry to read that you have not been persuaded yet that indeed the born again believer is assured and is secure in his/her salvation.

What are you talking about? Of course believers are secure in his/her salvation. That's why you should keep believing. It's when you stop believing that you lose the security of God's salvation. As long as you are believing in Christ you are secure in Christ. Why is this so hard for the church to grasp?

I am secure because I trust God's Holy word and His Spirit testifies to my spirit.

Yes.......because you trust God. That is why you are secure in Christ. You must continue to believe to be secure in salvation. Stop trusting in God and you won't have the security of salvation.

My actions are not trustworthy only God is Trustworthy!

Nobody's actions are trustworthy. Thank God that salvation is secured through trusting, not working.

 

[Ralph-]

I am absolutely and completed persuaded that I will be with Jesus when I die.

As long as you believe your confidence is well placed.

If you're the 4th kind of soil where the word goes deep and can not be uprooted then you can indeed have confidence that you will endure to the end in your believing and be saved. It's the weak believer in whom the word is not deeply rooted, they are the one's that can potentially lose/forfeit their salvation through a return to unbelief. They need to grow up to the place of maturity where they can not be shaken.

Sorry Ralphie, but it is not ongoing belief that saves, salvation/justification/regeneration is a gift from God to those who believe.

Ongoing belief is how you continue to access the exact same salvation you accessed when you first believed. You got the free gift through your believing and you will continue to keep it through that same believing. If that believing ends you will lose what you had access to by faith.

"they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. "-Romans 11:20-22

 

[UnderGrace]

What are you talking about? Of course believers are secure in his/her salvation. That's why you should keep believing. It's when you stop believing that you lose the security of God's salvation. As long as you are believing in Christ you are secure in Christ. Why is this so hard for the church to grasp?




Yes.......because you trust God. That is why you are secure in Christ. You must continue to believe to be secure in salvation. Stop trusting in God and you won't have the security of salvation.



Nobody's actions are trustworthy. Thank God that salvation is secured through trusting, not working.

You are tenacious, I will give you that.
Well we have been here before.....and here we go again ...

What is the length of time of a lapse in belief before we loose our salvation?

 

[Ralph-]

yes

. . . and then we have 2 Timothy 2:13, "when we are faithless He is faithful" just to keep anyone from getting the idea that we're wise, smart and have everything figured out, lol

Now contrast that with denying Christ.


12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." - 2 Timothy 2:12-13


The struggling believer can be faithless and Christ will remain faithful to him. That's the believer sinning, yet sinning within his continued belief and trust in Christ to forgive his sins and keep him clean. That is different than denying Christ altogether in unbelief. If you do that, Christ will not only be faithless to you he will deny you altogether.

You can stumble and fall as a Christian and Christ will keep you covered. What you can't do is deny him in unbelief. He won't cover you in your unbelief. You lose the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice when you turn away from the sacrifice in contemptuous unbelief and return to the world. You're on your own if you do that. All you have left to look forward to if you do that is the coming destruction of the enemies of God.

 

[OstrichSmiling]

Transcript: (This is the best Biblically supported absolute that tells the Christian they can never lose their Salvation. And why.)

can a Christian lose salvation first the
term Christian must be defined a
Christian is not a person who has set a
prayer or walk down an aisle or but
raised in a Christian family while each
of these things can be part of the
Christian experience they are not what
makes a Christian a Christian is a
person who has fully trusted in Jesus
Christ as their only Savior and
therefore possesses the Holy Spirit John
3:16 acts 16:31 in ephesians 2:8 through
9 perhaps the best way to answer the
question of losing salvation is to
examine what the Bible says occurs at
salvation and study what losing
salvation would entail a Christian is a
new creation therefore if anyone is in
Christ he is a new creation the old has
gone and the new has come 2nd
Corinthians 5:17 a Christian is not
simply an improved version of a person
hmm a Christian is an entirely new
creature he is in Christ for a Christian
to lose salvation the new creation would
have to be destroyed
a Christian is redeemed first Peter 1:18
through 19 declares we were bought or
redeemed with the blood of Christ not
perishable things like silver or gold
the word redeemed refers to a purchase
being made or price being paid
we were purchased at the cost of
Christ's death for a Christian to lose
salvation God himself would have to
revoke his purchase of the individual
for whom he paid with the precious blood
of Christ a Christian is justified
therefore since we have been justified
through faith we have peace with God
through our Lord Jesus Christ Romans 5:1
to justify is to declare righteous all
those who receive Jesus as Savior are
declared righteous by God for a
Christian to lose salvation God would
have to go back on his word and
undeclared a person righteous those
absolved of guilt would have to be tried
again and found guilty a Christian is
promised eternal life John 3:16 says
whoever believes in Christ will have
eternal life eternal life is the promise
of spinning forever in heaven with God
God promises believe and you will have
eternal life for a Christian to lose
salvation eternal life would have to be
redefined
a Christian is marked by God and sealed
by the Holy Spirit
Ephesians 1:13 through 14 says that at
the moment of faith the new Christian is
marked and sealed with the Spirit who
has promised to act as a deposit to
guarantee the heavenly inheritance the
end result is that God's glory is
praised for Christian to lose salvation
God would have to erase the mark
withdrawal the Spirit cancel the deposit
break his promise revoke the guarantee
keep the inheritance forgo the praise
and lessen his glory a Christian is
guaranteed glorification according to
Romans 5:1 justification is ours at the
moment of faith according to Romans 8:30
Laura fication comes with justification
all those whom God justifies a promise
to be glorified this promise will be
fulfilled when Christians receive their
perfect resurrection bodies in heaven if
a Christian can lose salvation
the Romans 8:30 is an error because God
cannot guarantee the glorification for
all those whom he predestined calls and
justifies a Christian cannot lose
salvation most if not all of what the
Bible says happens to us when we receive
Christ would be invalidated if salvation
could be lost salvation is the gift of
God and God's gifts are irrevocable
Romans 11:29 common objections to this
belief usually raise the question what
about Christians who live in a sinful
unrepentant lifestyle or have turned
away from the faith
this however assumes that everyone who
calls himself a Christian has actually
been born again the Bible declares that
a true Christian will not live in a
state of continual unrepentant sin first
John 3:6 the Bible also says that anyone
who departs the faith is demonstrating
that he was never truly a Christian
first John 2:19 also Matthew 7/16 says
we will know Christians by their fruit
nothing can separate a child of God from
the Father's love Romans 8:38 through 39
nothing can remove a Christian from
God's hand John 10:28 through 29 God
guarantees eternal life and maintains
the salvation he has given us the Good
Shepherd searches for the lost sheep
when he finds it he joyfully puts it on
his shoulders and goes home Luke 15 5
through 6 the lamb is found and the
shepherd gladly bears the burden our
Lord takes full responsibility for
bringing the lost one safely home

 

[Ralph-]

What is the length of time of a lapse in belief before we loose our salvation?

How long did God give the Galatians to come back to their senses when they turned back to the law and away from Christ for justification? We don't know. We just know that he gave them space to come back. How do we know that? Paul's attempt to bring them back shows us that God had not turned them over, yet, to their return to justification by works of the law.

My personal opinion is the space for repentance God gives depends on why you departed. They were deceived. They did not leave in a contemptuous love of the world they left behind. So I'm guessing God would give more time to them than he would the person who just decided he loved the world he left more than the forgiveness of God he has received.

 

[UnderGrace]

Now contrast that with denying Christ.


12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." - 2 Timothy 2:12-13


The struggling believer can be faithless and Christ will remain faithful to him. That's the believer sinning, yet sinning within his continued belief and trust in Christ to forgive his sins and keep him clean. That is different than denying Christ altogether in unbelief. If you do that, Christ will not only be faithless to you he will deny you altogether.

You can stumble and fall as a Christian and Christ will keep you covered. What you can't do is deny him in unbelief. He won't cover you in your unbelief. You lose the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice when you turn away from the sacrifice in contemptuous unbelief and return to the world. You're on your own if you do that. All you have left to look forward to if you do that is the coming destruction of the enemies of God.

Okay Ralphie this is where you and I part company.....

Unbelief is the status of the person who has never believed.

Sorry I will not be persuaded.